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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Timeline of Silent Hill's History—HUGE UPDATE: May//16//
     
         
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Quote:
The wiki decides to go by the document rather than the calendars (we just see it as more reliable), which basically states a few things:


The wiki is choosing a .pdf document that is technically outside of the SH universe's narrative over the text and objects actually inside the games? Pfft, thanks for proving my point about the wiki's unreliability.

Quote:
Also, Shattered Memories coincides with Alex's Diary because Cheryl Heather Mason was born in 1983. So perhaps Climax chose 1983 to parallel the official canon/Alex's diary.


...Shattered Memories is a different universe...

Quote:
A theory in scientific terms is totally different. Although I fail at picking up jokes so maybe you meant that? (My sense of humor died...!)


Nobody has ever presented a convincing case against the Brookhaven theory, and Tom and his fellow-minded have provided an argument that has never been debunked.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Timeline of Silent Hill's History—HUGE UPDATE: May//16//
     
         
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Quote:
The wiki is choosing a .pdf document that is technically outside of the SH universe's narrative over the text and objects actually inside the games? Pfft, thanks for proving my point about the wiki's unreliability.


Yes? It's an official document in the same way the Book of Lost Memories is. People have agreed that it's more reliable. 2 days ago, an editor removed the calendar because he said "Game calendars don't always match the years games are set in." It makes sense.

http://silenthill.wikia.com/index.php?t ... ldid=46834

How do you know that Team Silent didn't just say "oh, we need a calendar texture. Let's just Google it... oh, here's a good one."? Team Silent must have been really anal if they were finding a calendar with the right week placement texture in a 480p PS1 video game...

Meanwhile, Alex's diary outright gives you the date periods. I see nothing wrong with that. If there's a date given using Alex's dairy, the wiki always references it, meaning it's not "unreliable."

Can you please not come off as condescending and snarky?

Quote:
...Shattered Memories is a different universe...


What makes you think I don't know that?
It's still interesting to note and would be cool if SH1 did take place in 1983, as it'd be a nice little parallel.

Also, in my last post I mentioned "14 years"... it was a calculation error, I meant 12 years instead between SH1 and SH2 for this timeline.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Timeline of Silent Hill's History—HUGE UPDATE: May//16//
     
         
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Sidenotes:

Just read more of Alex's diary... Archbolt seems to be the official name.
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/1773/archbolt.png

As well, 1976 is the year given for Origins.
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/5631/1976.png

Like I said, if you quickly reload the page before the purple mark turns up, 1983 is shown to be the year for SH1.
http://images.wikia.com/silent/images/3/37/1983.png

Some other things I noticed about this timeline.
- Sein Martin, not Thane Martin?
- Peter Walls, not Peter Wolls?
- Lillian is 48, not 46. Since Homecoming is in 2007, Lillian would be born in 1959, not 1961. Her age is found in the manual and in Alex's diary.


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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Timeline of Silent Hill's History—HUGE UPDATE: May//16//
     
         
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The years 1983 and 2000 don't make sense in regards to the other games, though, notably The Room and the Order's deceased leaders.

Of course, the authors of the games have been using my timeline, so maybe they wanted to make my past version official. . . .

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Timeline of Silent Hill's History—HUGE UPDATE: May//16//
     
         
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Quote:
Yes? It's an official document in the same way the Book of Lost Memories is. People have agreed that it's more reliable. 2 days ago, an editor removed the calendar because he said "Game calendars don't always match the years games are set in." It makes sense.

http://silenthill.wikia.com/index.php?t ... ldid=46834


That's special pleading, so that argument is irrelevant.

Quote:
How do you know that Team Silent didn't just say "oh, we need a calendar texture. Let's just Google it... oh, here's a good one."? Team Silent must have been really anal if they were finding a calendar with the right week placement texture in a 480p PS1 video game...


This is the same team that goes to the trouble of hiding Bon Jovi song lyrics in Mary's latter, and putting in all sorts of obscure details that took over ten years for people to notice.

Quote:
Meanwhile, Alex's diary outright gives you the date periods. I see nothing wrong with that. If there's a date given using Alex's dairy, the wiki always references it, meaning it's not "unreliable."


But then, it's also a document that pretty much relies on the idea that Alex somehow gained...what, clairvoyant powers so he could tell us about the whole series in a piece of fourth-wall breaking? And given how the creators of Homecoming are already suspect of breaking canon a shitload of times by fans, I'm not going to trust a little side-release that only a handful of people bothered to download and read.

Quote:
Can you please not come off as condescending and snarky?


You first. You're the one who came in here demanding I "get my facts straight" simply because I disagree with a peer-edited wiki.

Quote:
Of course, the authors of the games have been using my timeline, so maybe they wanted to make my past version official. . . .


That's what I told him. The dates of 1983 and 2000 create extant plotholes, and as I told him before, both Origins and Homecoming reference this site in their credits. Meaning both teams tried to patch their SH knowledge using a fanbase. Which is prone to error. Meaning the nuts are running the asylum...

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Timeline of Silent Hill's History—HUGE UPDATE: May//16//
     
         
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Quote:
That's special pleading, so that argument is irrelevant.


Umm, what? I'm NOT asking Tom to change his timeline (if he'd rather keep by the calendar dates then it's totally fine by him. I don't care if he says Heather was born in 5000 BCE because it's his timeline afterall). I'm simply pointing out it doesn't coincide with some official data.

Quote:
But then, it's also a document that pretty much relies on the idea that Alex somehow gained...what, clairvoyant powers so he could tell us about the whole series in a piece of fourth-wall breaking?


A little. Some things are obviously not written by Alex, such as Origins being placed in 1976. Think of it as random memos Alex has collected. As well, Alex says he's learned about the stories of Silent Hill from Adam.

Quote:
You're the one who came in here demanding I "get my facts straight" simply because I disagree with a peer-edited wiki.


Look back at what I said. I said, "Please don't say Silent Hill Wiki is incorrect until you know your facts are straight."

I said please, did not demand anything, and said 'know' instead of 'get'. Please don't put words in my mouth — try to be like Tom who shows decency.

.........

Is there anything that outright says the writers used this timeline? Tom Waltz has, but he hasn't worked on the game as far as I know. He has only written Sinner's Reward (my favorite) and Past Life.

I checked the credits of each game and Googled the authors:

Origins: “SPECIAL THANKS... The great team of Silent Hill Heaven”
- Written by Sam Barlow
Homecoming: “SPECIAL THANKS... and to all Silent Hill fans everywhere!”
- Written by Chris Valenziano and Patrick J Doody
Shattered Memories: “SPECIAL THANKS TO all fans of Silent Hill”
- Written by Sam Barlow

So Tom Waltz never worked on any of the games and the site only got a mention from Origins and neither Homecoming/Shattered Memories.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Timeline of Silent Hill's History—HUGE UPDATE: May//16//
     
         
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^I'm under the impression that Tom used this time line to help write the Past Lifes. Yep. You got that part right.

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viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21367&p=674128#p674128


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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Timeline of Silent Hill's History—HUGE UPDATE: May//16//
     
         
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I believe Devin Shatsky has claimed to, as well. Considering he and Tomm Hullett now run the Silent Hill series, I'd say that's relevant. Of course, Tom Waltz has said so, too, and he's a major part of the series now.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Timeline of Silent Hill's History—HUGE UPDATE: May//16//
     
         
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Quote:
Umm, what? I'm NOT asking Tom to change his timeline (if he'd rather keep by the calendar dates then it's totally fine by him. I don't care if he says Heather was born in 5000 BCE because it's his timeline afterall). I'm simply pointing out it doesn't coincide with some official data.


What I'm saying is you're giving preference to a .pdf document that doesn't actually take place inside series canon (unless you want to argue that Alex became a psychic photojournalist and managed to get snapshots of the whole game and somehow 'researched' shit that happened in other dimensions) over stuff that actually exists in the games themselves (calenders).

Quote:
A little. Some things are obviously not written by Alex, such as Origins being placed in 1976. Think of it as random memos Alex has collected. As well, Alex says he's learned about the stories of Silent Hill from Adam.


And how did he get them? How'd he get photos of the other games and stuff? How'd he piece all this together? Why is he collaborating this information and who is he leaving it to? It's basically breaking the fourth wall with only having the flimsiest pretense of in-universe narrative.

Quote:
Look back at what I said. I said, "Please don't say Silent Hill Wiki is incorrect until you know your facts are straight."

I said please, did not demand anything, and said 'know' instead of 'get'. Please don't put words in my mouth — try to be like Tom who shows decency.


Does it really matter how exact my semantics are? You were pretty emotional about your request and proceeded to start a debate over it in order to change my mind. I never said that you were impolite or anything, so quit being so defensive, it's not necessary. I'm not like, mad at you or pissed off or any such thing.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Timeline of Silent Hill's History—HUGE UPDATE: May//16//
     
         
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You have to understand the goal of the diary: to teach the reader about Silent Hill and to promote the series (especially Homecoming). So yes, there's going to be random 4th wall breaking such as "Silent Hill 2 was released on the PlayStation 2 in 2001" and stuff like that. I don't see a legit reason to discard the diary just because it breaks the 4th wall, however.

The bottom line: the diary is official and blatantly shows the years. How do you know the writers of the diary didn't contact Team Silent or receive any information from them? Perhaps Team Silent passed information to Konami, and when Homecoming was made, it was passed to Double Helix. The dates are so specific and blunt it makes me think they know what they're talking about. (and if any contradictory date is given in any future games, we can use it as strong evidence to argue instead of just "well, there's this blurry texture in the first game and we kinda assumed that it's 1982.")

So I looked at the calendar in the game.
http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/9039/calendars.png

It's totally illegible to me, it doesn't say June, nor does it say which day is first (could be Sunday or Monday). As well, you're assuming that the calendar is the actual calendar of the game (and that the manager of the Inn is up to date). Then you make a whole lot of assumptions using the calendar and you wind up with 1982.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Timeline of Silent Hill's History—HUGE UPDATE: May//16//
     
         
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Alex420 wrote:
The bottom line: the diary is official and blatantly shows the years. How do you know the writers of the diary didn't contact Team Silent or receive any information from them? Perhaps Team Silent passed information to Konami, and when Homecoming was made, it was passed to Double Helix.

Except Konami now explicitly uses this timeline. So... I guess not.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Timeline of Silent Hill's History—HUGE UPDATE: May//16//
     
         
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Kenji wrote:
Except Konami now explicitly uses this timeline.

How do you know that?


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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Timeline of Silent Hill's History—HUGE UPDATE: May//16//
     
         
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Alex420 wrote:
It's totally illegible to me, it doesn't say June, nor does it say which day is first (could be Sunday or Monday). As well, you're assuming that the calendar is the actual calendar of the game (and that the manager of the Inn is up to date). Then you make a whole lot of assumptions using the calendar and you wind up with 1982.


I can see June pretty easily, and calendars in the United States are almost ubiquitously Sunday-Saturday.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Timeline of Silent Hill's History — UPDATE: MAY//21//201
     
         
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Alex420 wrote:
How do you know that?

TomWaltz wrote:
Ratiocinator wrote:
Tom, Tom Waltz said he uses your timeline religiously. That's a nice honor. I've since passed it on the Podcast but believe it's shortly after the 50-minute mark.


Indeed... this timeline never leaves my side when I write for Silent Hill. It's a priceless reference, no doubt about it!

Thanks!

Tom Waltz

Tom Waltz was hired by Konami to write Downpour. If they had a more official reference, they wouldn't let him use a fan work. I also recall hearing, at some point, that Tomm Hulett mentioned using this timeline as a reference, too, but I don't have a quote.

And, yes, that's a lot of Toms.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Timeline of Silent Hill's History — UPDATE: MAY//21//201
     
         
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Missing since: 08 Jun 2011
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Quote:
Tom Waltz was hired by Konami to write Downpour. If they had a more official reference, they wouldn't let him use a fan work. I also recall hearing, at some point, that Tomm Hulett mentioned using this timeline as a reference, too, but I don't have a quote.

And, yes, that's a lot of Toms.


As of yet, we don't know how much Tom Waltz is actually involved with Downpour. He's a co-writer (not the main writer I believe?), so perhaps the only thing as far as he's involved with the story is intertwining aspects with Past Life and that's it. I wouldn't exactly call it Konami saying that they're using this timeline for all their games, otherwise they'd have to deal with the inconsistencies of blatantly showing possibly incorrect years in Alex's diary.

I've never heard of Devin Shatsky/Tomm Hulett saying they use this timeline. (If so, I wonder why Cheryl Heather Mason was born in 1983 and not 1982... I like the parallel between Cheryl Mason and Heather Mason)


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Timeline of Silent Hill's History—HUGE UPDATE: May//16//
     
         
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That's sort of a copout. Regardless of how involved he is, Tom Waltz is apparently involved enough that he needs to reference dates in the series, and it'd just be embarrassing if any other co-writers didn't use the same dates. Not only that, but Tomm Hulett is pretty much the head of the series.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Timeline of Silent Hill's History—HUGE UPDATE: May//16//
     
         
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Unless Waltz is only writing the instruction manual, there's no reason to exclude him from the arcane knowledge that the Japanese team presumably passed on to the mother company, least of all that such arcana exists. Neither Konami nor Waltz have anything to gain by denying that an official timeline was inherited from the Japanese branch: If anything, such an admission would reassure fans that they knew what they were doing.

I don't think there ever was a Japanese timeline.

The likeliest truth is that Toyama Keiichirou, when he headed the original Team Silent, was setting SH1 in the ill-defined "present day." That his concept of "present day America" happens to look like the 80s is happenstance (considering that Hashino Katsura's conception of America in Catherine looks just like Tokyo, even this is an achievement of research for what often looks like a very incurious Japanese public). By this logic, SH2 was likely also placed in "present day" and SH3 "seventeen years after SH1" and The Room "at least ten years after SH2."

It probably wasn't any more complicated than that. Why should it have been? They were making scary games that expressed their love of American filmmaking, not writing the next Great Japanese Epic. That Adversary was able to extract this much detail out of likely thoughtless environmental cues is a testament to his abilities, in my opinion.

So, when Konami moved the series to their American branch and began calling on Western developers, they had a series with a highly developed fan chronology and a nigh-on-nonexistent official one. When it became clear that this timeline (and ones derived from it) were regarded by the fanbase as canon, and any deviation (Origins) would be heavily criticized, Konami did what any business with its head out of its ass would do: Adopt the general consensus.

Sure, this is a theory, but I think it's the most logical conclusion.

At this point, I probably sound like those pricks at TwinPerfect. The difference here is that I think Konami made the right call, while they think it's an abomination. Clearly, this fanbase prefers a series with a mythology spanning half a century over an indistinct shrug of a timeline. That sacred cow of "artistic intent," when it goes against the richer conceptions of its fans, now that is an abomination.

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Last edited by Kenji on 14 Jun 2011, edited 1 time in total.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Timeline of Silent Hill's History—HUGE UPDATE: May//16//
     
         
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The only year given in Past Life was 1867. I have a feeling there won't be many dates given in Downpour though since it's mainly Murphy's story so there prolly won't be any new timeline info for a while.

I feel the discussion about Alex's diary has been resolved. The wiki just uses a different source.

Kenji wrote:

So, when Konami moved the series to their American branch and began calling on Western developers, they had a series with a highly developed fan chronology and a nigh-on-nonexistent official one. When it became clear that this timeline (and ones derived from it) were regarded by the fanbase as canon, and any deviation (Origins) would be heavily criticized, Konami did what any business with its head out of its ass would do: Adopt the general consensus.

Sure, this is a theory, but I think it's the most logical conclusion.


It seems to be that way, though Homecoming is a relatively recent game. If Konami disregards the dates in Alex's diary, I have to totally blame them for being so darn inconsistent with one of my favorite game series.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Timeline of Silent Hill's History—HUGE UPDATE: May//16//
     
         
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I don't particularly blame them, because it's the Japanese team that set them adrift without a paddle and the Western fanbase that took it so deadly serious that it limited their maneuvering room.

It may be useful to consider Origins and Homecoming an "interregnum" period, and Downpour the true beginning of the Western series after Shattered Memories opened up the breadth of what they could do besides knowing elbow-jabs and copy-pasting.

Like I said, this was probably never envisioned as the next Great Japanese Epic, so you'd be better off abandoning any notion that there was a single, consistent timeline besides the one in this very topic. That this timeline and the games are now merging can only be a good thing for those of us who love continuity, because there's probably no alternative.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Timeline of Silent Hill's History—HUGE UPDATE: May//16//
     
         
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Kenji wrote:
I don't particularly blame them, because it's the Japanese team that set them adrift without a paddle and the Western fanbase that took it so deadly serious that it limited their maneuvering room.


To be honest, it's not just that I blame them for. According to Kenzie LaMar:

Quote:
Due to declining faith in Team Silent, LaMar says that Konami wanted a change for Silent Hill, so it disbanded the group and handed the franchise off to another development team. This resulted in the creation of Silent Hill: Origins by Climax Studios, followed by Silent Hill: Homecoming from Double Helix Games.


Do you think he's telling the truth? If so, then I totally blame Konami for the changes Silent Hill has gone through.


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