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Woodside Apartments Janitor
 Post subject: Gans on Alessa being molested....
     
         
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Missing since: 26 Apr 2004
Notes left: 1134
Last seen at: Lakeside Amusement Park
On the DVD commentary, Gans talks ALOT about how PH and the creepers represent being "raped" and "sperm". So now, not just the Janitor monster represents what happened to Alessa. It seems that possibly the entire creature list represent in some for or another, what happened to Alessa in terms of being molested. Gans is trying to say that Alessa is completely stuck on being molested and everything she does either consciously or subconsciously reflects that. But when you do actually think about it - ALL of the monsters DO represent rape and/or sex in some way or another so possibly Alessa IS hung up on what happened to her in the bathroom MORE than actually being tortured and burned to death. Let's take a look here-
1. Lying Figure/Armless creature - It looks like a squirmy penis in a condom that "sprays" like ejaculation.
2. The Janitor - A tortured molestor trying to "lick" Rose in a graphic way.
3. Pyramid Head - A strong forceful male monster with a giant phalic weapon going around "stabbing" things with it. Plus, he rips off Anna's clothes, grabs her breasts, and rips off her skin.
4. Creepers - According to Gans, they represent "sperm" attempting to get in the "womb" which is the room after PH sticks his phalic knife forcefully through the door. They then try to chew, bite, lick, and eat their victims.
5. Nurses - Sexy body type women monsters. They move seductively and then punish each other by slashing one another! They are attracted to the phalic shaped flashlight and want and claw for it but ONLY when it is TURNED ON! They also moan in a sexual orgasmic way!
6. Grey Children - This one is a bit of a stretch, but they are victims because in Alessa's eyes, children are all rape victims. They paw and claw at the adult because that is what they think they should do. But they are full of "firey" rage burning inside them from being forced to touch things they don't want to!
7. Alessa Razor-Wire Bed Monster - She uses razor wire to viciously "rape" Christabella with the sharp wired tentacles! This one is pretty obvious...

But see what I mean? All of Alessa's creatures are based upon rape & sex either consciously or subconsciously. When you look at it this way, the entire movie is about Alessa coming to terms with what happened to her in the form of revenge and her creatures whom help her get her "satisfaction".

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Gans on Alessa being molested....
     
         
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Missing since: 12 May 2008
Notes left: 1684
Last seen at: Houston, Tx.
No, just no. Gans did not talk a lot about the closet scene representing rape, unless you count 2 or 3 sentences as being "a lot". You're taking a single scene that represents rape, and turning it into an ongoing theme that simply is not there. Pyramid Head does not represent rape, this is confirmed by Gans. He's just a masculine creature that acts as Alessa's executor. The Creepers also do not represent rape, but are symbolic of the way the cult would swarm over and destroy anything. The Grey Children are Alessa's classmates, whom she dragged into the Otherworld and murdered, then turned into monsters who feel the same pain she felt while being burned by the cult. The Armless Man very obviously represents Alessa's feeling of being imprisoned in her own body after the burning. I'm not even going to justify your theory about the nurses with a response. It's that ridiculous. The only things in the film that represent rape are the Janitor, the one single scene of Pyramid Head stabbing the door, and Christabella's barbed wire rape.


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Woodside Apartments Janitor
 Post subject: Re: Gans on Alessa being molested....
     
         
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Missing since: 26 Apr 2004
Notes left: 1134
Last seen at: Lakeside Amusement Park
JKristine35 wrote:
No, just no. Gans did not talk a lot about the closet scene representing rape, unless you count 2 or 3 sentences as being "a lot". You're taking a single scene that represents rape, and turning it into an ongoing theme that simply is not there. Pyramid Head does not represent rape, this is confirmed by Gans. He's just a masculine creature that acts as Alessa's executor. The Creepers also do not represent rape, but are symbolic of the way the cult would swarm over and destroy anything. The Grey Children are Alessa's classmates, whom she dragged into the Otherworld and murdered, then turned into monsters who feel the same pain she felt while being burned by the cult. The Armless Man very obviously represents Alessa's feeling of being imprisoned in her own body after the burning. I'm not even going to justify your theory about the nurses with a response. It's that ridiculous. The only things in the film that represent rape are the Janitor, the one single scene of Pyramid Head stabbing the door, and Christabella's barbed wire rape.

I'm not stating my theory as fact but when you tie it all together with the explainations at hand, then it can make sense. Just because you say "NO" doesn't mean that it is not possible. It is not even the main theory that I suscribe to, but after thinking about it and toying around the idea, it does make sense a little bit in my head. All of the monsters can be turned into latent sexual molestation representatives. Now calm down! I'm not stating this is fact because like I said before, this is not even the theory that I follow. BUT, it is an interesting theory and when I look at it from this angle and at a subconscious standpoint, it kind of does seem to make a bit of sense. This is why I brought it up for discussion.

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Gans on Alessa being molested....
     
         
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Missing since: 12 May 2008
Notes left: 1684
Last seen at: Houston, Tx.
What you're doing is the equivalent of saying Maria's choker meant she liked to be choked during sex. It has no basis in fact, and does not make sense at all.


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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Gans on Alessa being molested....
     
         
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Missing since: 06 Nov 2011
Notes left: 401
Scanman22 wrote:
are attracted to the phalic shaped flashlight and want and claw for it but ONLY when it is TURNED ON!


LOL.

To me it seems as if you've blown up Gans's statements out of proportion--which is okay, considering it's your interpretation/opinion of the work, and all, but it still makes me chuckle.

Though I respect your interpretation on the monsters. True; all of the monsters may represent sexual traits, much like every other SH monster though.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Gans on Alessa being molested....

Missing since: 31 Dec 2009
Notes left: 143
Last seen at: Lebanon, Pennsylvania
Pretty sure the armless monster is supposed to represent Alessa being confined to a bed all the time, and the acid is her anger and hate "burning inside of her" or whatever. And I always thought the Creepers/bugs had heads that looked like a nun's headpiece. Which would likely symbolize the Order followers.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Gans on Alessa being molested....

Missing since: 30 Apr 2012
Notes left: 36
I looked at the Christabella death scene as Alessa taking her out in a way Christabella would think condemmed her to ''hell'' remember how Alessa was purified because Dahlia wouldn't reveal the father which suggests to me sex out of wedlock is frowned upon by the cult. Remember her last words about staying pure.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Gans on Alessa being molested....
     
         
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Missing since: 18 Apr 2009
Notes left: 1399
Wait... You guys get a commentary in the US DVD? Daaamnit...

I always linked a lot of the movie to sterility/infertility and maternity. Sharon was adopted, usually couples adopt due to infertility, I always figured Rose was the one who was infertile due to the film focusing on women. Cybil stayed in a mineshaft looking after a young boy for three days, showed great concern for Sharon when the messed up drawings upset her and when being faced with her own burning, is more concerned about Sharon witnessing it than her own suffering; so she is very maternal herself, but doesn't have her own kids, I figured she was also unable to have kids herself (yes I know she could just be single or gay but I think it's deeper than that). The comparison is made between the cult's obsession with God and a child's obsession with mother ("mother is god..."). Dark Alessa enters Rose's body, and Rose clutches her abdomen; Alessa is in her body, the pregnancy she wasn't able to experience. She then gets the chance to 'give birth to' Alessa and bring her vengeance upon the cult. Keeping with that pattern I always thought Alessa choosing to violate Christabella the way she does and Dark Alessa dancing in the blood was a symbolic abortion and/or miscarriage.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Gans on Alessa being molested....
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2009
Notes left: 2523
I think they're referring to the French commentary; my DVD doesn't have one.

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Gans on Alessa being molested....
     
         
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Missing since: 12 May 2008
Notes left: 1684
Last seen at: Houston, Tx.
Gans's commentary is on the Metropolitan version of the French DVD. He speaks in French, but there are English subtitles available if needed.

According to Laurie Holden, Cybil can't have children due to her "lifestyle", meaning it's because she's a lesbian.


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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Gans on Alessa being molested....
     
         
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Missing since: 06 Nov 2011
Notes left: 401
Wow. Very interesting. I think it's was meant for Cybil to look the part of a stereotypical lesbian (no offense meant), and that certainly confirms in a lot of the mother themes discussed and presented in the Making-Of.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Gans on Alessa being molested....
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2007
Notes left: 5077
Very uninteresting, more like. I'd go so far as to say that's the least interesting possible explanation.

Just about every behind-the-scenes comment I've heard from this movie makes it more boring. :?

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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Gans on Alessa being molested....
     
         
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Missing since: 06 Nov 2011
Notes left: 401
Well, it's far more interesting than being sterile. A person's backstory and lifestyle is the front for a lot of psychological aspects for that certain character; this certainly makes Cybil more interesting as a person explained as having motherly qualities without being able to become a mother, by her own choice. How often do we hear requests to have a SH story so deep as to have the main character be gay/lesbian?


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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Gans on Alessa being molested....
     
         
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Missing since: 18 Apr 2009
Notes left: 1399
Like Kenji, I'm a little disappointed to hear that Cybil is said to be gay actually, because it makes her masculinity into more of a stereotype than a character trait. I had seen her as more of an Ellen Ripley character. Is this what was in Gans/Avery's mind though, or was this Laurie Holden's own choice of motivation for the acting?

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Gans on Alessa being molested....
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Oct 2011
Notes left: 518
Last seen at: Phoenix
DistantJ wrote:
Like Kenji, I'm a little disappointed to hear that Cybil is said to be gay actually, because it makes her masculinity into more of a stereotype than a character trait. I had seen her as more of an Ellen Ripley character. Is this what was in Gans/Avery's mind though, or was this Laurie Holden's own choice of motivation for the acting?


Ms Holden didn't get a say in the wardrobe; some kind of leather clad dominatrix. The character is only ambiguously gay. The one scene where it really leaks through is after the PH rape attempt, see the expression on Cybil's face when Rose suggests they get a hotel.
***

The film ends shortly after "Mother is God in the eyes of a child." and there aren't many males. So the French director focuses on the idea of a complete woman; thus the film is filled with imperfect women. Rose, Alessa, Cybil, Dahlia, Anna, Christabella. Each has glaring imperfection, their tragic flaw that prevents them from being a perfect mother.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Gans on Alessa being molested....
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2007
Notes left: 5077
teosoleil wrote:
How often do we hear requests to have a SH story so deep as to have the main character be gay/lesbian?

The presence of a gay character doesn't automatically make something "deep." Simply being gay, by itself, doesn't make someone interesting, either.

Let me illustrate my point by writing this sentence: "Cybil Bennett looks and acts butch because she's a lesbian." There's a snappier way to write that, but I'll opt for discretion, instead.

Before I'm even done writing that sentence, I've stopped thinking about it. It's so simple and reductive that there's nothing left to think about. There'd be more to think about if we'd instead learned that Cybil has a pathological fear of hair.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Gans on Alessa being molested....
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2009
Notes left: 2523
I wanted to comment on the idea of Cybil being lesbian myself--that doesn't make something deep. People wanting a gay character in the series want one because of representation and tackling different issues; they don't mean that it'll be immediately deep.

I also would argue that Cybil didn't choose to not be a mother because she's gay, because many if not most LGBT peoples don't choose their orientation.

I agree that it's a bit of a weird choice; I'd love to have more representation, but she's kind of just the stereotypical lesbian chick and after TwinPerfect's "bull dyke" comment it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Gans on Alessa being molested....
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Wow, Cybil being a stereotypical lesbian just knocked down the original movie almost an entire peg, for me.

Because not only all the above, but her death is now a moment of Bury Your Gays.

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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Gans on Alessa being molested....
     
         
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Missing since: 06 Nov 2011
Notes left: 401
Yuki wrote:
I wanted to comment on the idea of Cybil being lesbian myself--that doesn't make something deep. People wanting a gay character in the series want one because of representation and tackling different issues; they don't mean that it'll be immediately deep.

I also would argue that Cybil didn't choose to not be a mother because she's gay, because many if not most LGBT peoples don't choose their orientation.

I agree that it's a bit of a weird choice; I'd love to have more representation, but she's kind of just the stereotypical lesbian chick and after TwinPerfect's "bull dyke" comment it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


I'm not sure why Cybil's stereotypical portrayal of a lesbian in the movie inhibits you from analyzing even further depth into her character. "Well, now that she's a lesbian and has short hair, she's easily forgotten about now" is what I'm getting. Her sexual orientation, to me, adds a whole lot of depth to her motherly side as a whole. We already knew that she was protective of children from the start, but we can now maybe stretch that protective aspect in her personality to have something to do with how she's probably not going to be a mother due to her sexual orientation.

Oh crud, did I type earlier that Cybil is chooses not to have a child due to her sexuality or something derogatory along those lines? Didn't think it would come off that way : | That's not what I meant.

My point is: in my view, I think the backstory and personality of Cybil gets much more interesting than before, with the added fact that she is homosexual. Blowing off all analytic thoughts you had about her due to a newly revealed aspect of her character doesn't make sense at all. In fact, I see this as opportunity to look more into the motives she has as a character.

AuraTwilight wrote:
Wow, Cybil being a stereotypical lesbian just knocked down the original movie almost an entire peg, for me.

Because not only all the above, but her death is now a moment of Bury Your Gays.


Why would it do that? In my opinion, her portrayal as a lesbian (which may or may not be stereotypical) doesn't have anything to do with the Bury Your Gays trope, nor does it knock down any aspect of her character nor personality in any way.

DistantJ wrote:
it makes her masculinity into more of a stereotype than a character trait.


How? Can it not be both? I don't understand why making someone into a stereotype automatically discards any trait that was once interesting, making it completely invalid as a personality aspect at all.

tbonesays wrote:
Ms Holden didn't get a say in the wardrobe; some kind of leather clad dominatrix. The character is only ambiguously gay. The one scene where it really leaks through is after the PH rape attempt, see the expression on Cybil's face when Rose suggests they get a hotel.
***

The film ends shortly after "Mother is God in the eyes of a child." and there aren't many males. So the French director focuses on the idea of a complete woman; thus the film is filled with imperfect women. Rose, Alessa, Cybil, Dahlia, Anna, Christabella. Each has glaring imperfection, their tragic flaw that prevents them from being a perfect mother.


Agreed, and really nice thought. If anything, Cybil being a lesbian (ambiguous or not) really adds a lot to make this specific theme of the movie whole. Even Gans states that the movie was about what the difference between a good mother and a bad mother, Alessa's "training" of Rose in the film helps make her a better mother, whether it helps her learn to be more protective from Cybil, not as weak-willed as Dahlia, etc., but in general more strong as a whole to help her deliver Alessa's goal.


Last edited by teosoleil on 06 Nov 2012, edited 2 times in total.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Gans on Alessa being molested....
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2009
Notes left: 2523
teosoleil wrote:
Yuki wrote:
I wanted to comment on the idea of Cybil being lesbian myself--that doesn't make something deep. People wanting a gay character in the series want one because of representation and tackling different issues; they don't mean that it'll be immediately deep.

I also would argue that Cybil didn't choose to not be a mother because she's gay, because many if not most LGBT peoples don't choose their orientation.

I agree that it's a bit of a weird choice; I'd love to have more representation, but she's kind of just the stereotypical lesbian chick and after TwinPerfect's "bull dyke" comment it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


I'm not sure why Cybil's stereotypical portrayal of a lesbian in the movie inhibits you from analyzing even further depth into her character. "Well, now that she's a lesbian and has short hair, she's easily forgotten about now" is what I'm getting. Her sexual orientation, to me, adds a whole lot of depth to her motherly side as a whole. We already knew that she was protective of children from the start, but we can now maybe stretch that protective aspect in her personality to have something to do with how she's probably not going to be a mother due to her sexual orientation.

Oh crud, did I type earlier that Cybil is chooses not to have a child due to her sexuality or something derogatory along those lines? Didn't think it would come off that way : | That's not what I meant.

My point is: in my view, I think the backstory and personality of Cybil gets much more interesting than before, with the added fact that she is homosexual. Blowing off all analytic thoughts you had about her due to a newly revealed aspect of her character doesn't make sense at all. In fact, I see this as opportunity to look more into the motives she has as a character.


Thanks for the apology. :)

I'm not saying that her being lesbian can't be deep--what I mean is that the fact that she is doesn't automatically make her such. I don't like that she's stereotypical, because that's the majority of representation in media of minorities, but she is a strong female character that blends motherly urges (traditionally feminine) with badassery (traditionally masculine), which I admire. I'm not saying she has no depth--it's just that the fact she's a lesbian does not automatically give her more of it.

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