The Cult Members/Fog/Cybil/Rose

Discuss the original 2006 movie.

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Post by Anonymous »

Judge Jacket wrote:Remember, SH is not just a place, but a state of mind (if you will). Samael is a demon, and doesnt let people off easily.
DAGNABBIT PEOPLE, THERE IS NO SAMAEL! This is not the game. The movie gives us no reason to believe that the Samael worshipping, god-birthing, angel-summoning practices of the game have any bearing on the movie. The cult(s) of the games and the cult of the movie are very, very different. Try to separate the game from the movie in your mind. It is an adaptation - a new story based upon ideas of the game series. Any correlation between Samael and anything in the movie is pure speculation.

Whew - sorry about that. I do actually like some of your points, and if you change the word “Samael” to “demon” or something, I have no problem with it.

Now, onto the “they are dead” theory. There is a very sound theory as to why someone in Silent Hell would be “killed” again if they were already dead. If the fog Silent Hill is a “purgatory” of some sort, that would mean it is a waiting place for souls to be judged after they have died. According to some religious beliefs, that is what Purgatory is; a “waiting room” for souls where they can ascend or descend to heaven or hell respectively. In accordance with this idea, the act of “killing” the cultists would be judgment. In Alessa’s purgatory, she judges them and they become monsters, destined to spend the rest of their days suffering in torment as pawns in Alessa’s “hell.”

[EDIT]Also, If the cultists don't know they are dead, when they are judged, it may resemble a gruesome death as if there body was living. Some of these ideas are played with in Dante's Inferno. If the souls are unaware of their death, they will act as though they are living, scavenging for food, and trying to satisfy the cravings and compulsions they had when alive.[/EDIT]

Now, to provide some ideas as to why I think they are instead alive… I know the problem with the bodies missing is the biggest argument for them being alive. But, to me, there is something even more convincing; why would dark Alessa “possess” Sharon at the end if Sharon was already dead? If she is alive, the “demon”, or whatever, can take it to places outside of Silent Hill’s domain. The darkness can spread because Sharon is still alive (Mwahahaha!).

What’s the point of possessing a dead girl that is trapped in Silent Hill? The only rebuttal I could possibly see to this would be that dark Alessa possessed Sharon’s “spirit” so that it would be loved by Rose and Rose could still be with her daughter (sort of) in Silent Hill (fog purgatory). But I don’t think dark Alessa’s goal is to be loved. I think dark Alessa’a goal is destruction and revenge.
Last edited by Anonymous on 10 May 2006, edited 1 time in total.
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Phantom Allure
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Post by Phantom Allure »

well... it still sounds like little more than speculation. Besides, Sharon wasn't even alive in the first place, seeing as she never had a biological conception. She's just an embodiment of an aspect of Alessa's personality
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Post by Anonymous »

Phantom Allure wrote:well... it still sounds like little more than speculation. Besides, Sharon wasn't even alive in the first place, seeing as she never had a biological conception. She's just an embodiment of an aspect of Alessa's personality

OK, so you are saying that Sharon wouldn’t be “dead” like everyone else, simply because Sharon was never really “alive” in the first place. Like - she is part of Alessa, a manifestation of her innocence, so the normal rules of Silent Hill don’t apply to her, right?

Well, we’re still at the same point. Why would dark Alessa possess her if she wasn’t alive? If she is just a part of her, why would she need to possess her? Just for fun? It doesn’t make sense to me.
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Post by Phantom Allure »

It was the Demon who did the possessing... the flesh-and-blood Alessa from which Sharon was cleaved from is still in her iron bed, possibly now partying in her hell with the rest of the congregation. Pretty complicated shit ain't it? makes it all the more convoluted than what the opposers of the "shyamalan-esque" (emphasis on "esque" :wink: ) interpretations make it out to be.
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Post by DaneCrystane »

posibilities: cybil died in wreck, died in fire, rose died in wreck, rose died by heart stabage. sharon died in wreck. lets say that none of them died in the wreck, that would leave sharon still alive (idk, not what im leaning towards but possible) to why posses, ive heard theories of alessa wanting a good mom and she found that in rose, so her bad and good fused and is now being with rose. about bodies not being found, easy they can be moved (read my Search Parties topic, sounds good in my head anyway). about killing them again, dante inferno/ fun for torture. about semi-common twist, that wouldnt make it any less possible, just cause you dont like something doesnt make it go away. I personally like the they are dead theory but thats just the way i saw it (im goin to give gans a call and get him to come here and post what his answer is, thatll stop this debate nonsense)
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Post by Phantom Allure »

DaneCrystane wrote: about semi-common twist, that wouldnt make it any less possible, just cause you dont like something doesnt make it go away.
I figure you're talking about the oft-used "Character-is-dead-but-doesn't-have-a-friggin-clue" twist?

Pretty much sums up the rebuttal against people who think Gans wouldn't even consider resorting to such a plot device. Oh Gee. They apparently never considered the possibility that the director is only human too...

Look at it this way, Film History has a way of repeating itself... and not just in the remakes sense. If one trick works, more than likely someone will think it'll work again
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Post by innocent_bitch »

ProudClod wrote:I don't think the cultists were kept in foggy Silent Hill to be tortured... I think foggy Silent Hill is their ESCAPE from torture, whereas alternate Silent Hill is Alessa's world... Where her horrors become a reality... Why was the Janitor a monster? Because she was terrified of him... Notice how he was wiggling his tounge? He raped her... And that sexual fiend image of the Janitor was the way she viewed him... How about the gray children? She was always picked on as a kid... Everyone in her school despised her, and called her a witch (Close enough... As she carries the seed of Sammael)... What does this mean? Alternate Silent Hill is the incarnation of Alessa's nightmares.

If Alessa COULD torture and kill everyone... She would... Why didn't she? Sammael's full power was not with her... Where is the other half of his power? In Sharon. Alessa played Dahlia and Rose like puppets, to get to Sharon... Which is why, only when she got to Sharon, the anti-cultist's faced her wrath...

As for the cult... I don't believe we see any cult members, other than Dahlia in the movie... Cristabella, is not a part of a cult... She's a part of the anti-cult, a witch hunting religion, that was probably a counter to Dahlia's cult... Dahlia DEFINITELY has power in Silent Hill. She summoned Pyramid Head for gods sake!

So...

Cult:
Dahlia
Unknown father (Probably Kauffman, even though he doesn't appear in the movie)
Unknown others

Witch Hunter anti-cult:

Cristabella
Anna
Church-folk

Dahlia seems very vulnarable in the movie, but is she really? Like I stated before-- She summons pyramid head. She's also not a part of Cristabella's crew... Therefore, we have to assume, she did WILLINGLY attempt to summon Sammael into her child. Who helped? The father of the baby, even though we don't know who that is... How in the hell would she ever summon a demon? A fallen angel? The help of a cult... And obviously, not Cristabella's cult :)
You must be talking about the game @_@, the storyline in the movie is waaaaaaaaaaayyyy different from the game you know...
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Post by Lyo_Triste88 »

I do not believe that in this movie Dahlia was part of a cult. I saw nothing that really led me to believe that she had any ties to any sort of religion. She left the religion headed by Cristabella after they burned her child. And I think its speculation that she summoned Pyramid Head. Yes she did point to Anna, after that PH appeared but she did not prompt the first attack on Rose and Cybil. It leads me to believe the only reason Dahlia wasn't harmed by Alessa or PH or any other creatures in town, or why PH attacked Anna when Dahlia pointed( a gesture similar to the one made against her daughter when they called her a witch) is because that Alessa does not hold the hatred that she has against her mother. But that is just my opinion.

As for rose, which is the topic of this thread She is just as dead as harry was at the end of SH1. Just because someone is in the hellish version of Silent hill does not mean they have died. I believe that when someone is in Normal Silent hill they can't interact directly with people on the other silent hill and vice versa.
Since Rose is trapped in the other Silent Hill, she can't interact with her husband or be seen by him. But this does not mean that she died.

And the rebuttal made by Heathers_Guy14 clears up the "Harry died in one of the endings" arguement. If he did die, then the events that occured in SH3 could not have happened.
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Post by "Hicks" »

Gritty wrote:
Bettie Bloodshed wrote:
Heathers_Guy14 wrote:I seriously doubt she died from hitting her head like that. Harry got in the crash and whacked his head and he didn't die. I personally think that Rose and Sharon are stuck in the Foggy World. Like Dahlia.



Well aren't we supposed to think Harry died in the bad + ending?
But this the movie(different take) with a different character. The bump on the head wasnt enough to cause death, they prolly did that to confuse some viewers. Its cool tho, believe what u want, I know I am.

Has anyone considered the fact that the toxic fumes my have been the c.o.d. of Rose instead of a bump on the noggin? She was out cold for presumably awhile. Just a theory.
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Post by "Hicks" »

Death is another part of life.
Give me clean death.........a soldier's death.
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Post by phantomess »

It was pointed out that if Rose is dead, her body should have been found in the Jeep. And that was refuted. Well, in the SH1 ending in which Harry dies, his body is seen in the Jeep... but yes, I know the game is not the movie.
I just think if they intended Rose to be dead, they would want to make that more apparent to the audience in some way. For example, instead of us seeing her in the alternate dimension at the end, we would see evidence of her death.
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Post by PaintxThisxRed »

Lyo_Triste88 wrote:(a gesture similar to the one made against her daughter when they called her a witch)
That gesture is used to ward off an "evil eye" put upon you in some superstitious communities.
Ronnie James Dio credits this as the origin of the 'devil horns' used by metal fans. Due to his family being quite superstitious, he used it alot and thus it's use in every crowd shot from Wacken Open Air.
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Post by Averna »

ProudClod wrote:I don't think the cultists were kept in foggy Silent Hill to be tortured... I think foggy Silent Hill is their ESCAPE from torture, whereas alternate Silent Hill is Alessa's world... Where her horrors become a reality... Why was the Janitor a monster? Because she was terrified of him... Notice how he was wiggling his tounge? He raped her... And that sexual fiend image of the Janitor was the way she viewed him... How about the gray children? She was always picked on as a kid... Everyone in her school despised her, and called her a witch (Close enough... As she carries the seed of Sammael)... What does this mean? Alternate Silent Hill is the incarnation of Alessa's nightmares.

If Alessa COULD torture and kill everyone... She would... Why didn't she? Sammael's full power was not with her... Where is the other half of his power? In Sharon. Alessa played Dahlia and Rose like puppets, to get to Sharon... Which is why, only when she got to Sharon, the anti-cultist's faced her wrath...

As for the cult... I don't believe we see any cult members, other than Dahlia in the movie... Cristabella, is not a part of a cult... She's a part of the anti-cult, a witch hunting religion, that was probably a counter to Dahlia's cult... Dahlia DEFINITELY has power in Silent Hill. She summoned Pyramid Head for gods sake!
i left out some of your post. the only part i agree with is half of the idea in your first para.

addressing the second para, it's pretty clear you thought over this for about 10 seconds before posting it here. i'll play along with this samael idea, althought i myself haven't heard of it yet, i get the gist of it. you say alessa brought sharon and rose into silent hill to merge her powers with sharon. wow. i hope everyone can see what's wrong with that. sharon and rose entered foggy silent hill on the 30th year of alessa's reign of terror. for the first 21 years, shit wasn't so great, so alessa spawned sharon from herself and released her in the outside world for the specific reason of someone like rose coming to SH and doing what she did in the church. so, as you can see alessa was already merged with sharon for the first 20 years.
anyway that was the only post worth critisizing. i'll leave out the bs about anti cults and how dahlia controls SH with alessa.

but to the first para: i actually want to add onto your ideas. your "alternate silent hill," aka rusty-metal-death-hell silent hill, is Alessa's nightmare world. "they would all fall into her darkest dreams." a lot more changes between foggy sh and hell sh than people notice. one thing i have yet to comprehend is the whole bodies issue in this movie (outside of rose's, sharon's and cybil's for once).
Colin was in foggy SH. well, at least his body was. in hell sh he is reanimated seems to be alive in some manner. what about the miner who was hung to the chain fence with his entrails hanging loose? he seemed alive, but his severed body certainly wasn't there in foggy sh. do you suppose that if rose went back to that area again in hell sh that the miner would again be hanging there? also, in the school there are many dead bodies that appear that were not there in foggy sh. i never saw any of anna's remains outside of the church doors, even though there were plenty to go around. and the most prominent example - the slaughter in the church. the darkness is brought in, everyone is killed, rose wakes up in foggy sh church, no bodies.
sorry i have no shot at any kind of solution at the moment, just more confusion to be brought up.

oh - and the cultists/rose/sharon/cybil aren't dead. well upon entering sh anyway..
goddamnit i was gonna end the post there but now i guess i'll address this too.
my guess is that people have to be in some sort of unconscious state to get taken into sh. a car crash can do that to ya.. so can hanging around in a fire too long and breathing in a lot of smoke. besides the dark one, and perhaps christabella, everyone in SH ages. even alessa. maybe christabella just couldn't be made to look older by the makeup crew.
another thing, quoted from Krist.:
"Also: If they were already dead, why would Alessa kill them again? That just seems silly to me – Alessa kept them alive, tormented and trapped them in a world at her mercy until she could kill them by her own hand. "

i almost wrote a post about this a few months ago but didn't feel like i had enough info.. here i am now with even less because i forgot all the quotes i pulled out but oh well.. this wasn't the main focus of my response to w/e
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Post by brokenhearts2205 »

Ok I think Rose and Sharon are not dead because if you noticed in the end they are at there house and its dark and misty when they show them two, but on the other hand there husband or dad is there to but when they show him its all normal and bright and raining out. So my conculsion is they are still alive just still traped in the world of silent hill.
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Post by CharmedOne03 »

brokenhearts2205 wrote:Ok I think Rose and Sharon are not dead because if you noticed in the end they are at there house and its dark and misty when they show them two, but on the other hand there husband or dad is there to but when they show him its all normal and bright and raining out. So my conculsion is they are still alive just still traped in the world of silent hill.
That is what i think also
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