Let's not forget that the cult has two sects, the "Holy Mother Sect" and the "Saint Ladies Sect." Both have stupid names, but we know that they weren't copacetic. The reasons for their animosity has been up to speculation since SH4. Most people thought it had to do with the ritual to bring about god. The movie seems to indicate that one of the sects has nothing at all to do with god-birth. They even have a different seal, instead of the "Halo of the Sun." The cult we see throughout the games worships the god, but the other cult believes that the being that they worship is the devil. They seem to believe that is up to them to pass judgement on people. In the church in SH3, if you read the myth surrounding the god, it could apply to both sects. The last painting is where their interpretations differ. It says something about offering their prayers until the day when the path to paradise will be opened. How the cult offers their prayers may be where the two sects part ways.
Note: I didn't mention the "Valtiel Sect" because they were mainly created to ease the tensions between the other two sects. They didn't last very long and I don't think they were very effective at acheiving their goal.
Could it be.... SATAN???
Moderator: Moderators
-
Mis Krist.
- Historical Society Historian
- Posts: 12943
- Joined: 27 Aug 2003
- Location: The Wand'ring Wood
"The cult we see throughout the games worships the god, but the other cult believes that the being that they worship is the devil."
? Where are you getting this from? They don't believe in a devil at all: the only people to label the God with a demon's name are the opponents. They all believe in God, just different ways of summoning Her.
"They even have a different seal, instead of the "Halo of the Sun.""
Nope. The Halo of the Sun is representative for the entire Order - SH3 tells us so. The Seal of Metatron/Virun VII Crest spread throughout the town in SH1 is not a sect's chosen seal, but rather a magical crest used for protective and dispelling purposes: the same reason Alessa chose to draw it all over town.
? Where are you getting this from? They don't believe in a devil at all: the only people to label the God with a demon's name are the opponents. They all believe in God, just different ways of summoning Her.
"They even have a different seal, instead of the "Halo of the Sun.""
Nope. The Halo of the Sun is representative for the entire Order - SH3 tells us so. The Seal of Metatron/Virun VII Crest spread throughout the town in SH1 is not a sect's chosen seal, but rather a magical crest used for protective and dispelling purposes: the same reason Alessa chose to draw it all over town.
I'm not dead yet, dammit.
-
The Adversary
- RESPECT
- Posts: 20091
- Joined: 19 Jul 2003
- Location: #lfk
- Contact:
That's all fan-fiction, Steohawk.
For starters, the Sects are: The Sect of the Holy Mother & the Sect of the Holy Woman. There is no "St. Ladies Sect"--that's a poor translation. Everything Krist. has supplied you with is correct: They both believe in the same God, but they have different methods in which they believe God to be born.
The Sect of the Holy Woman, to which Dahlia & Claudia ascribe, believe in "a woman with concealed powers"--in our case, Alessa--to be impregnated with the fetus of God.
The Sect of the Holy Mother, operated by George Rosten and later by Toby Archibold, believed in the birth of God by use of a "conjurer"--Mr. Rosten raised Walter Sullivan to be this person, due to his unwavering faith.
For starters, the Sects are: The Sect of the Holy Mother & the Sect of the Holy Woman. There is no "St. Ladies Sect"--that's a poor translation. Everything Krist. has supplied you with is correct: They both believe in the same God, but they have different methods in which they believe God to be born.
The Sect of the Holy Woman, to which Dahlia & Claudia ascribe, believe in "a woman with concealed powers"--in our case, Alessa--to be impregnated with the fetus of God.
The Sect of the Holy Mother, operated by George Rosten and later by Toby Archibold, believed in the birth of God by use of a "conjurer"--Mr. Rosten raised Walter Sullivan to be this person, due to his unwavering faith.
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.
. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
that sounds about right gd manFor starters, the Sects are: The Sect of the Holy Mother & the Sect of the Holy Woman. There is no "St. Ladies Sect"--that's a poor translation. Everything Krist. has supplied you with is correct: They both believe in the same God, but they have different methods in which they believe God to be born.
The Sect of the Holy Woman, to which Dahlia & Claudia ascribe, believe in "a woman with concealed powers"--in our case, Alessa--to be impregnated with the fetus of God.
didn dind correct as correct can be (i think)
The Sect of the Holy Mother, operated by George Rosten and later by Toby Archibold, believed in the birth of God by use of a "conjurer"--Mr. Rosten raised Walter Sullivan to be this person, due to his unwavering faith.
Last edited by outlaw on 08 May 2006, edited 1 time in total.
heaven or hell ? lets rock!
-
Anonymous
I'm sorry, I didn't mean that the other sect thinks that the god is the devil, but they don't believe the god was "properly summoned." This, in their eyes, mean that it can't be god. They may have their own rituals, but it seems to me that only one sect believes that the god can litterally be "born".? Where are you getting this from? They don't believe in a devil at all: the only people to label the God with a demon's name are the opponents. They all believe in God, just different ways of summoning Her.
Again, I apologize. When I said "seal", I wasn't talking about the Seal of Metatron. I was referring to that symbol that is in the middle of Christabella's church. I admit that I may be wrong about the Halo of the Sun. The symbol in the movie is more Christian in appearcence, so they may prefer it over the more "pagan-looking" symbol. Personally, I'm still confused about the "21 Sacraments." At first I thought that the "Holy Mother" was a reference to the god, but then I went back to SH3 and listened to the tape of Vincent. The woman on the tape says that Claudia has found the Holy Mother. So the Holy Mother is Alessa! But this confused me even more.Nope. The Halo of the Sun is representative for the entire Order - SH3 tells us so. The Seal of Metatron/Virun VII Crest spread throughout the town in SH1 is not a sect's chosen seal, but rather a magical crest used for protective and dispelling purposes: the same reason Alessa chose to draw it all over town.
Edit: I just saw the last two posts. I do agree on most of it, especially the part about the bad translation.
I probably got mine from a different source. But I still don't get where people get info on the purposes of the sects and the fact that Dahlia and Claudia are members of the "Holy Woman Sect." I you getting this from www.translatedmemories.com, because I can't find it. All I have about it is the "Victim Files" and they aren't don't offer too many details on the sects. Any help would be appreciated. 
-
The Adversary
- RESPECT
- Posts: 20091
- Joined: 19 Jul 2003
- Location: #lfk
- Contact:
>This, in their eyes, mean that it can't be god.
But it is God, because each Sect is summoning the same diety, using their own method. There's a reason tha each time Its been born, its been botched--poor planned-parenting?--and that's because the two Sects weren't working together. I believe a colleague of mine, Burning Man, made a thread discussing this--something along the lines of The Father of God.
>I was referring to that symbol that is in the middle of Christabella's church.
The film doesn't have any relation with the games. It's a parallel universe, and neither have any impact on the other.
>Personally, I'm still confused about the "21 Sacraments."
It's really quite simple. According to the Sect of the Holy Mother, God is called The Holy Mother. This is the god that Walter is attempting to bring into the world. According to the Sect of the Holy Woman, however, refers to Alessa as the Holy Mother--because she was to physically birth God.
Neither of them believe Alessa is God, but rather have different names for their God.
Sect of the Holy Woman = God, Creator of Paradise, Lord of Serpents & Reeds
Sect of the Holy Mother = The Holy Mother
It's all a matter of perception, and the audience has to distinguish between the different Sects in order to fully understand.
But it is God, because each Sect is summoning the same diety, using their own method. There's a reason tha each time Its been born, its been botched--poor planned-parenting?--and that's because the two Sects weren't working together. I believe a colleague of mine, Burning Man, made a thread discussing this--something along the lines of The Father of God.
>I was referring to that symbol that is in the middle of Christabella's church.
The film doesn't have any relation with the games. It's a parallel universe, and neither have any impact on the other.
>Personally, I'm still confused about the "21 Sacraments."
It's really quite simple. According to the Sect of the Holy Mother, God is called The Holy Mother. This is the god that Walter is attempting to bring into the world. According to the Sect of the Holy Woman, however, refers to Alessa as the Holy Mother--because she was to physically birth God.
Neither of them believe Alessa is God, but rather have different names for their God.
Sect of the Holy Woman = God, Creator of Paradise, Lord of Serpents & Reeds
Sect of the Holy Mother = The Holy Mother
It's all a matter of perception, and the audience has to distinguish between the different Sects in order to fully understand.
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.
. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
-
Anonymous
-
The Adversary
- RESPECT
- Posts: 20091
- Joined: 19 Jul 2003
- Location: #lfk
- Contact:
There were several diary entries from Joseph Schreiber that were not available in the game; they were provided on the Official Silent Hill 4: The Room website.
Red Diary : July 7th
With the information from a certain source, I've barely come to understand the factions and the human relations within the cult. Earlier, there were three main sects within that cult. They are called the Sect of the Holy Woman, the Sect of the Holy Mother and the Sect of Valtiel.
The Sect of the Holy Woman, a faction centered around Priestess Dahlia Gillespie, believed in the resurrection of the god by impregnating a woman, who has concealed special powers, with the child god within her womb.
The Sect of the Holy Mother used to show respect to the "Mother Stone" as a holy entity, but by using their self-operated "Wish House," they brainwashed the children and raised a "conjurer" to achieve the goal of resurrecting the god [= Holy Mother] through this "conjurer."
The Sect of Valtiel, centered around Jimmy Stone, a priest with an alias "Red Devil," was a faction that worshipped Valtiel as the one close to god and also an executioner.
The Sect of Valtiel was also responsible for the intermediation of the Sect of the Holy Woman and the Sect of the Holy Mother, which were in opposition to each other.
From this thread, tranlsated by my aforementioned colleague, Burning Man.
The Sects can be quite confusing, but there's plenty of resources round here to assist in understanding them--and, well, me.
Red Diary : July 7th
With the information from a certain source, I've barely come to understand the factions and the human relations within the cult. Earlier, there were three main sects within that cult. They are called the Sect of the Holy Woman, the Sect of the Holy Mother and the Sect of Valtiel.
The Sect of the Holy Woman, a faction centered around Priestess Dahlia Gillespie, believed in the resurrection of the god by impregnating a woman, who has concealed special powers, with the child god within her womb.
The Sect of the Holy Mother used to show respect to the "Mother Stone" as a holy entity, but by using their self-operated "Wish House," they brainwashed the children and raised a "conjurer" to achieve the goal of resurrecting the god [= Holy Mother] through this "conjurer."
The Sect of Valtiel, centered around Jimmy Stone, a priest with an alias "Red Devil," was a faction that worshipped Valtiel as the one close to god and also an executioner.
The Sect of Valtiel was also responsible for the intermediation of the Sect of the Holy Woman and the Sect of the Holy Mother, which were in opposition to each other.
From this thread, tranlsated by my aforementioned colleague, Burning Man.
The Sects can be quite confusing, but there's plenty of resources round here to assist in understanding them--and, well, me.
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.
. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
well..
Let me tell you what I know. Sameal was a demon referenced in the bible and known well throughout jewish lore. Sameal was often considered the angel of death in jewish sstories (some even considered him the angel from the 10 commandments story.) He was however fallen. he was among a certain sect of angels whom were sent to earth and lusted after human women. They mated and produced ofspring, which resulted in a race of giants (goliath anyone?).
Now let us suppose for a second that this point is the same as in the game, and sameal is the 'reaper'. One interpretation would be that he recognised the cult as real good god fearing people. A fallen angel would be the arch enemy of god and therefore would do anything to stop it. However, samael is most often considered a creature of wrath. Satan, or lucifer, was always sort of a legal enemy, a opposing lawyer type so to speak. However, Samael is most often seen as a demon of vengence, which fits the 'reaper's part perfectly.
Now let us suppose for a second that this point is the same as in the game, and sameal is the 'reaper'. One interpretation would be that he recognised the cult as real good god fearing people. A fallen angel would be the arch enemy of god and therefore would do anything to stop it. However, samael is most often considered a creature of wrath. Satan, or lucifer, was always sort of a legal enemy, a opposing lawyer type so to speak. However, Samael is most often seen as a demon of vengence, which fits the 'reaper's part perfectly.
-
The Adversary
- RESPECT
- Posts: 20091
- Joined: 19 Jul 2003
- Location: #lfk
- Contact:
>Sameal was a demon referenced in the bible and known well throughout jewish lore.
Samael is not mentioned in The Bible. It is the true name of ha-Satan--also known as Tthe Adversary of the Old Testament--but not until the New Testament was it given a name: Satan.
>he was among a certain sect of angels whom were sent to earth and lusted after human women.
Not necessarily. It's true that he was the fallen angel, but he was not the angel that slept with the women of Earth who ultimately bore the Nephilim--that group of angels was led by Azazel & Semyaza.
>Satan, or lucifer, was always sort of a legal enemy
A common misconception: Lucifer is not ha-Satan, and is erroneously equated as such in in Isaiah 14:12: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning"--the apostrophe applies to Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon. It was St. Jerome's folly to associate Lucifer with the New Testament's Satan--which became a common misconception, much like using the name Samael to refer to The Order's God.
Samael is not mentioned in The Bible. It is the true name of ha-Satan--also known as Tthe Adversary of the Old Testament--but not until the New Testament was it given a name: Satan.
>he was among a certain sect of angels whom were sent to earth and lusted after human women.
Not necessarily. It's true that he was the fallen angel, but he was not the angel that slept with the women of Earth who ultimately bore the Nephilim--that group of angels was led by Azazel & Semyaza.
>Satan, or lucifer, was always sort of a legal enemy
A common misconception: Lucifer is not ha-Satan, and is erroneously equated as such in in Isaiah 14:12: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning"--the apostrophe applies to Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon. It was St. Jerome's folly to associate Lucifer with the New Testament's Satan--which became a common misconception, much like using the name Samael to refer to The Order's God.
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.
. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
My presepctive of Silent Hill.
(now please note that i don't agree with this, it's just my anaylsis of the Town.)
Silent Hill can be viwed as a purgatory, a place to repent for your sins. As Grimwar stated, Silent Hill pulls people in who have a great darkness hidden within them (Greed lust, murder.) Those who go to the town find themselves in a Hellish alternate reality that represents their darkness and sins. As they fight through the creatures (or their hidden darkness) you can say that they find enlightment, or peace with themselves. This can also be attributed to a statment from Claudia: "is it so hard to believe that joy can be born from pain, and suffering" (is it so hard to believe that coming to fight your sins and darkness can lead to peace or God.)
In my opoion, i believe that when Alessia made a deal with the demon, she released her sins onto the town, and then used Rose's daughter (who is Alessia's good reincarnation) to lead them to Silent Hill, to help her fight her demons and get revenge on the town's people. Whew, well thats my opoion on this subject.
(now please note that i don't agree with this, it's just my anaylsis of the Town.)
Silent Hill can be viwed as a purgatory, a place to repent for your sins. As Grimwar stated, Silent Hill pulls people in who have a great darkness hidden within them (Greed lust, murder.) Those who go to the town find themselves in a Hellish alternate reality that represents their darkness and sins. As they fight through the creatures (or their hidden darkness) you can say that they find enlightment, or peace with themselves. This can also be attributed to a statment from Claudia: "is it so hard to believe that joy can be born from pain, and suffering" (is it so hard to believe that coming to fight your sins and darkness can lead to peace or God.)
In my opoion, i believe that when Alessia made a deal with the demon, she released her sins onto the town, and then used Rose's daughter (who is Alessia's good reincarnation) to lead them to Silent Hill, to help her fight her demons and get revenge on the town's people. Whew, well thats my opoion on this subject.
-
Mis Krist.
- Historical Society Historian
- Posts: 12943
- Joined: 27 Aug 2003
- Location: The Wand'ring Wood
There are cases of young children doing "evil" acts out of their innocence everywhere. I think you have written an essay about it, Krist. (or was it Drew in the essay thread?)
[size=84][b]QUICKLINKS | [/size][size=75][url=http://silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2362]SH1[/url] |[url=http://silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2313]SH2[/url] |[url=http://silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2327]SH3[/url] | [url=http://silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=43347#43347]SH4[/url] |[url=http://silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=17936]SH:H[/url] | [url=http://silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=391270#391270]SH:O[/url] |[url=http://silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=85043#85043]SHMovie[/url] |[url=http://silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12563]SHGeneral[/url] |[url=http://silenthillforum.com/faq.php]FAQs[/url][/size][/b]
[size=84][color=grey][i]
[/size][/color][/i]
[size=84][color=grey][i]
[/size][/color][/i]
-
Mis Krist.
- Historical Society Historian
- Posts: 12943
- Joined: 27 Aug 2003
- Location: The Wand'ring Wood
Ah, okay, I understand what you mean now. But I still don't really see eye to eye with it.. At least not with how easy it is to say "oh she's a sinner because she had wrath in her heart."
Alessa did nothing "sinful" up until the Dark One gave her the ability to get revenge. The movie goes through great emphasis to explain how lonely and scared she was. In fact, the only time she ever gets furious or "wrathful" is after she's burned, which stands to reason. You'd be pretty pissed off, too, and the cult members got what they deserved. The character Alessa, before being burned, is depicted as an innocent. A frightened little girl with no one to help her. So the first time someone makes a promises and offers her, quite literally, their hand, she takes it. Her desire for revenge is justified in that it's targeted against those who've played a direct role in hurting her. An eye for an eye, so to speak.
Four year olds don't know right from wrong. Psychologically, they won't develop that reasoning until around nine or ten years of age. And that's a completely different beast than this matter - one's a movie, one's reality.
Alessa did nothing "sinful" up until the Dark One gave her the ability to get revenge. The movie goes through great emphasis to explain how lonely and scared she was. In fact, the only time she ever gets furious or "wrathful" is after she's burned, which stands to reason. You'd be pretty pissed off, too, and the cult members got what they deserved. The character Alessa, before being burned, is depicted as an innocent. A frightened little girl with no one to help her. So the first time someone makes a promises and offers her, quite literally, their hand, she takes it. Her desire for revenge is justified in that it's targeted against those who've played a direct role in hurting her. An eye for an eye, so to speak.
Four year olds don't know right from wrong. Psychologically, they won't develop that reasoning until around nine or ten years of age. And that's a completely different beast than this matter - one's a movie, one's reality.
I'm not dead yet, dammit.
Don't get me wrong, I'm agreeing with you Krist. But look at this way - perhaps other humans wouldn't get the contract with the Dark One except Alessa. Perhaps Alessa had the darkness instilled inside her when she was birthed. Of course, it wasn't her fault still since she didn't choose to be born with it. But if you believe in the life before and after, then you could say Alessa was an evil person in the life before this one, etc.
sorry for my bad english day
sorry for my bad english day
[size=84][b]QUICKLINKS | [/size][size=75][url=http://silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2362]SH1[/url] |[url=http://silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2313]SH2[/url] |[url=http://silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2327]SH3[/url] | [url=http://silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=43347#43347]SH4[/url] |[url=http://silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=17936]SH:H[/url] | [url=http://silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=391270#391270]SH:O[/url] |[url=http://silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=85043#85043]SHMovie[/url] |[url=http://silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12563]SHGeneral[/url] |[url=http://silenthillforum.com/faq.php]FAQs[/url][/size][/b]
[size=84][color=grey][i]
[/size][/color][/i]
[size=84][color=grey][i]
[/size][/color][/i]
-
Mis Krist.
- Historical Society Historian
- Posts: 12943
- Joined: 27 Aug 2003
- Location: The Wand'ring Wood
-
Anonymous
I think there is obviously evidence in the game to support this. But I didn't see anything in the movie that would lead us to believe that Alessa had any evil inside of her before the cult burning. The movie made a point to emphasize Alessa's innocense and obvious unprovoked mistreatment by the cultists, janitor, school children, and everyone else.amphreded wrote:Don't get me wrong, I'm agreeing with you Krist. But look at this way - perhaps other humans wouldn't get the contract with the Dark One except Alessa. Perhaps Alessa had the darkness instilled inside her when she was birthed. Of course, it wasn't her fault still since she didn't choose to be born with it. But if you believe in the life before and after, then you could say Alessa was an evil person in the life before this one, etc.
sorry for my bad english day
There was no hint in the movie that she had any powers or evil intentions before the burning incident. Some people point to the alter fire tipping over during the incident as Alessa imposing her powers, but i dont buy that at all.
Plus, the movie deliberately leaves out
PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER_SHOW PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER:
the cult's original purpose of Alessa's burning and prolonging her suffering: to draw on her evil powers for the goal of summoning or birthing a god (correct me if I am wrong, I am a little fuzzy).