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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 24 Jun 2007
Notes left: 2121
Arsonist wrote:
In Origins, Alessa seems to be evil, manipulative and blood-thirsty, in SH1 and SH3 she was a tragically abused child who just wanted her batshit mother to love her.


subjective.


Quote:
In Origins, Kauffman seems to be the brains, while in SH1, Dahlia was the one who thought of and executed the whole thing.


subjective.


Quote:
In SH1, it was stated that Alessa was in the basement when the fire happened, she was in the attic in Origins.


i thought it was stated that the fire was caused within the basement (by alessa, who caused the boiler to explode due to stress - a psychic blow), but spread to the rest of the house. since alessa is found by an altar, you can assume she was not in the basement when the fire happened - why would she be? somehow i doubt climax would intentionally skip over that detail by placing her in the attic as opposed to the basement. it's assumed she was moved from the basement, or she was not there in the first place.


Quote:
And I’m pretty sure I read in some place official sounding that the whole soul splitting thing was an accident. But the whole plot in Origins, revolves around Alessa, trying to manipulate Travis in to piecing the Flauros for her, so that she could split her soul.


uh. perhaps you should source that official-sounding place.

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My Bestsellers Clerk
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Missing since: 08 Nov 2008
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Arsonist wrote:
Well to be fair, her character development in Origins is actually realistic. And we already knew that she was a selfish crack-whore in SH1, seeing how she agreed not to tell anyone about Alessa, and let them abuse the comatosed girl for seven years, just so that they would still give her the drugs.


I didn't know that she was and i think this is a pretty easy and convenient way to put things. :!:

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Quote:
Except when she’s killing people when her mommy tells her to?


Not necessarily. For all we know, they just showed Alessa pictures, and told her "We want you to wish for this man to disappear really, really hard. Pray to God."

And she would do it, innocently, to please Mommy.

Quote:
How?


Well, for one, who else could it possibly be? Who else has the power and intent?

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Yeah, but convincing a seven year old, or anyone for that matter in to consciously killing someone must not be an easy task either. Besides, there’s always a chance that the person you’re convincing into killing someone would mess it up, especially if they’re like, seven. You know how the saying goes- “If you want to do something right…”


Who said it was conscious? All they have to do is tell her to want it.

Quote:
They did say we… Not god, we. And apparently, Kaufmann wasn’t all too pleased when God was born, since it wasn’t “what they agreed”, but, he seems more then a little pissed when the doctor guy comments on them being unable draw any more power… Granted you’re probably right.


He was fine with the whole God thing until it actually started happening, as he saw, "Um...this is Hell." Furthermore, We is usually to refer to a collective in things like a religion using a little girl to birth God.

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Again, we didn’t see Dahlia teleport, knock people out with her mind, or make an invisible, bullet proof shield before the Flauros zapped Alessa.


Well, actually, Dahlia does go out doors and is then suddenly gone at inhumanly fast speeds. And also takes doorways that don't lead anywhere. And she summoned Cheryl and predicted the goddamned future. Her spells are pretty potent.

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And saying those were just spells she cast before hand, and somehow managed to time just right is even more baseless.


Who said anything about timing? It could be as simple as "Make me impervious to harm while I'm hurr in de othurwurld hurr." Certainly less baseless than "Hey, lookit me I'm Dahlia I can steal psychic powers."

Quote:
And we already knew that she was a selfish crack-whore in SH1, seeing how she agreed not to tell anyone about Alessa, and let them abuse the comatosed girl for seven years, just so that they would still give her the drugs.


To Lisa's credit, without the drugs she sees Alessa's nightmares telepathically. I'd sell her out to make it stop, too.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Hope House Careworker
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TL;DR WARNING!

It's waaaaaaaaaay too long!


Again, I accepted Origins as cannon. I’m just playing devils advocate here, but…

Quote:
subjective.


Is it really? Even if we say that Alessa isn’t evil, we still see her being a complete sadist in the game. She grins every time she causes Travis pain and makes him pass out, she grins especially gleefully when he finally goes ape-shit on her. “Happy? You dug up my parents, what now? When do we get to look inside your sick little mind?”

She is also, clearly manipulative, there is no way you can deny that.

Also, she clearly wants revenge like her movie name sake, she sees Dahlia, unleashes the otherworld full of extremely aggressive monsters, more so then ever before. Upon seeing Dahlia, she goes so batshit, she completely ignores Travis’s safety.

She went from “Oh, but mommy, I just want to be with you!” to “Oh, but mommy, I just want to tentacle rape you with barbed wire!” in a matter of hours. And then after seven more years of torment, she turned back to being a poor, timid child. You have to admit that that doesn’t make much sense.

And a few other things. There she is, watching the actors practice for the play and thinks “Hm, I don’t really like this Prospero guy, he reminds me of Dahlia. Hmm… What should I do? Oh, I know! Fry the actor’s Brains!”

And if Travis really is

[spoiler]a serial killer[/spoiler]

she just decides to let him go when she doesn’t have any use for him any more? [spoiler] Lets him to be free to kill more innocent people? [/spoiler] If that’s not evidence that she’s portrayed as a selfish little bitch in Origins, I don’t know what is.

Quote:
subjective.


Maybe so. But it doesn’t change the fact that Kauffman doesn’t really want god to be born. He’s just using the cult for his finances, like Vincent. Kauffman sells them his drugs, and Vincent just outright steals from them.

While Aura’s reasoning, is quite… reasonable, I am still not convinced. Mainly because Kaufmann accuses Dahlia of betraying him. “Quit messing around, return things the way they were before! Did I ask for this? This isn’t what we’ve agreed on! No one uses me! No one!”

He also accuses the cult of “being easy”. “And you all… Well, it kept you busy. Ha! You’re easy!”

That, to me, seems more like he’s been using them, while at the same time, Dahlia is using him.

Granted, you’re right. This point really is subjective.

Quote:
i thought it was stated that the fire was caused within the basement (by alessa, who caused the boiler to explode due to stress - a psychic blow), but spread to the rest of the house. since alessa is found by an altar, you can assume she was not in the basement when the fire happened - why would she be? somehow i doubt climax would intentionally skip over that detail by placing her in the attic as opposed to the basement. it's assumed she was moved from the basement, or she was not there in the first place.


I’m pretty sure that Translated Memories stated that Dahlia was the one who started the fire. It ain’t called the “immolation ritual” for nothing.

It also states that Alessa’s body was found in the basement. The police concluded that the fire was cause by a faulty boiler, I always figured the cops were either in the cult, or that Dahlia sabotaged the said boiler.

Also, the fire destroyed six other houses in the process, but in Origins, there doesn’t seem to be any houses anywhere remotely near the Gillespie residence.

Quote:
uh. perhaps you should source that official-sounding place.


I tried to find it, but I failed. I did read it about a year a go after all.

BUT! Translated Memories stated that the split occurred during the ritual.


Another sort of related thing, Lisa’s age. It is officially announced that Lisa is sixteen in Origins, is it even possible for a sixteen year old to be anything other then a volunteer in the hospital? I don’t think so. You can skip a few grades, but I never heard of anyone who skipped the child labor laws.

It doesn’t really contradict the cannon, it’s just plain stupid and illogical.

----------------------------

Anyway, now on to Aura.

Quote:
Not necessarily. For all we know, they just showed Alessa pictures, and told her "We want you to wish for this man to disappear really, really hard. Pray to God."

And she would do it, innocently, to please Mommy.


Fair enough, but something else just occurred to me. How did they know Alessa could kill people just by wishing for it?... Fucking plot hole.

Quote:
Well, for one, who else could it possibly be? Who else has the power and intent?


Like I said, it could have been a note from Travis’s survival instinct.

Quote:
Well, actually, Dahlia does go out doors and is then suddenly gone at inhumanly fast speeds.


So does Kauffman, so did Angela, and Cynthia spawned next to Henry every time he’d walk through the door.

Does that mean that they cast spells too, or is that just a video game mechanic?

Quote:
And she summoned Cheryl and predicted the goddamned future. Her spells are pretty potent.


True, but she couldn’t see in to the future just like that:

Gyromancy

A method of divination in which a person spins around inside or walks the circumference of a circle drawn on the ground, the perimeter of which is marked with the letters of an alphabet. The divination is inferred from the letter at the position where the person either stumbles or falls across the circle’s edge. The person would repeat the practice "...till he evolved an intelligible sentence, or till death or madness intervened.


Taken from Wikipedia.

Seems like it takes some effort to do it. I’m sure that summoning Cheryl was even harder to perform.

Quote:
Who said anything about timing? It could be as simple as "Make me impervious to harm while I'm hurr in de othurwurld hurr." Certainly less baseless than "Hey, lookit me I'm Dahlia I can steal psychic powers."


But she wasn’t impervious to harm, Kauffman shot her eventually, because she didn’t even noticed he was there, he took her by surprise. Not to mention that Cybil was indeed telekinetically pushed away, much like Alessa pushed Harry.

Quote:
To Lisa's credit, without the drugs she sees Alessa's nightmares telepathically. I'd sell her out to make it stop, too.


I always assumed those were your usual drug induced withdrawal hallucinations. Mainly because she also wrote about dry heaves, which fall into the symptoms of drug withdrawals too.

Besides, Lisa’s hallucinations have more in-common with SH3’s otherworld then that of the SH1. Chances are, she was hallucinating about blood and puss oozing through the walls because of her job. She was constantly changing Alessa’s bandages, but Alessa never healed. “Even when I change the bandages the blood and puss just start oozing through!”

Poor Alessa. If I was in Lisa’s position, I’d totally pull a James and put a pillow over that shit.


Last edited by Arsonist on 24 Jan 2009, edited 1 time in total.

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Historical Society Historian
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First of all, Arsonist, it's [spoiler], not [spoil]. Might want to edit your posts accordingly.

I also agree with your Alessa point about her sadism, but I don't think [spoiler]Travis is a serial killer; there's really no damned evidence for it, imo, and I have much better and cooler theories.[/spoiler]

Quote:
Maybe so. But it doesn’t change the fact that Kauffman doesn’t really want god to be born. He’s just using the cult for his finances, like Vincent. Kauffman sells them his drugs, and Vincent just outright steals from them.

While Aura’s reasoning, is quite… reasonable, I am still not convinced. Mainly because Kaufmann accuses Dahlia of betraying him. “Quit messing around, return things the way they were before! Did I ask for this? This isn’t what we’ve agreed on! No one uses me! No one!”

He also accuses the cult of “being easy”. “And you all… Well, it kept you busy. Ha! You’re easy!”

That, to me, seems more like he’s been using them, while at the same time, Dahlia is using him.


Well, he was there in the hospital room when they were talking about the half soul and whatnot. At the very least, he was involved enough; IMO, he just didn't expect Dahlia's vision and stuff, and the whole Hellish Otherworld thing was a surprise. More, "What the hell? I thought we were just summoning a little godling to help our drug ring."

Quote:
I’m pretty sure that Translated Memories stated that Dahlia was the one who started the fire. It ain’t called the “immolation ritual” for nothing.

It also states that Alessa’s body was found in the basement. The police concluded that the fire was cause by a faulty boiler, I always figured the cops were either in the cult, or that Dahlia sabotaged the said boiler.

Also, the fire destroyed six other houses in the process, but in Origins, there doesn’t seem to be any houses anywhere remotely near the Gillespie residence.


Ding! We have a winner!

Quote:
Another sort of related thing, Lisa’s age. It is officially announced that Lisa is sixteen in Origins, is it even possible for a sixteen year old to be anything other then a volunteer in the hospital? I don’t think so. You can skip a few grades, but I never heard of anyone who skipped the child labor laws.


Um, hello? This is the Order we're talking about, which pays her in drugs? I don't think they give a shit about child labor laws if they're serving up some Turky Fried Alessa with a side order of Hell.

Quote:
Fair enough, but something else just occurred to me. How did they know Alessa could kill people just by wishing for it?... Fucking plot hole.


Not necessarily. Maybe they learned about the theatre incident and then experimented. Or hell, maybe they just experimented the limits of her power when they learned she had any at all, the same way Dahlia "knew" she could give birth to God. She didn't know, she just tried and hoped for the best, lol. Or maybe she accidentally killed a classmate, and while consoling her, Dahlia's like "My baby can fucking kill people! Radical!"

Quote:
Like I said, it could have been a note from Travis’s survival instinct.


Then why be so verbally abusive? And it's not like he can leave anyway; why not be more useful and have his survival instinct manifest better weapons, or fight against the Id to keep monsters from manifesting, or something?

Quote:
So does Kauffman, so did Angela, and Cynthia spawned next to Henry every time he’d walk through the door.

Does that mean that they cast spells too, or is that just a video game mechanic?


I don't mean the mere game mechanics, I mean the actual plotline acknowledgement of such. Cynthia and Angela don't really count anyway, as Cynthia vanished by waking up, and Angela is in a totally different reality.

Anyway, if it's not in the game, I KNOW it's in the Play Novel; in one scene in the hospital, Harry can try and chase her, and when he turns the corner just half a foot behind her, she's gone, and he even says so; "She's gone...what the hell?"

Quote:
True, but she couldn’t see in to the future just like that:

Gyromancy

A method of divination in which a person spins around inside or walks the circumference of a circle drawn on the ground, the perimeter of which is marked with the letters of an alphabet. The divination is inferred from the letter at the position where the person either stumbles or falls across the circle’s edge. The person would repeat the practice "...till he evolved an intelligible sentence, or till death or madness intervened.

Taken from Wikipedia.

Seems like it takes some effort to do it. I’m sure that summoning Cheryl was even harder to perform.


Right, so why not cast a shield spell beforehand? "There's shittons of monsters around. I should prepare for that."

Quote:
But she wasn’t impervious to harm, Kauffman shot her eventually, because she didn’t even noticed he was there, he took her by surprise. Not to mention that Cybil was indeed telekinetically pushed away, much like Alessa pushed Harry.


Hm. Good point. I could argue things like the fact that Kauffman shot her from outside her field of vision and the shield requires such, but instead, I'll revise the idea: Maybe Alessa's love for her mother was protecting Dahlia at that point. She's reasonably mad at her mummy for doing what she did, but she's not gonna let some cop girl shoot her. But Kauffman got in a hit because Alessa is delirious, losing control of her powers and mind, etc.

Quote:
I always assumed those were your usual drug induced withdrawal hallucinations. Mainly because she also wrote about dry heaves, which fall into the symptoms of drug withdrawals too.

Besides, Lisa’s hallucinations have more in-common with SH3’s otherworld then that of the SH1. Chances are, she was hallucinating about blood and puss oozing through the walls because of her job. She was constantly changing Alessa’s bandages, but Alessa never healed. “Even when I change the bandages the blood and puss just start oozing through!”


Lost Memories and the Play Novel lend credit to the theory that she was suffering Alessa's nightmares from proximity to her. Hell, the movie even drew on it.

Quote:
Poor Alessa. If I was in Lisa’s position, I’d totally pull a James and put a pillow over that shit.


"She just won't die..." I'm sure if the thought even crossed her mind, she already knew it was futile. Alessa is pretty much immortal so long as she's knocked up.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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>This is the Order we're talking about, which pays her in drugs?
Technically not.

Lisa isn't a part of The Order—M.K. is, at least according to Silent Hill: Origins, though he wasn't in Silent Hill (another bungle on Climax's part)—so M.K. giving Lisa PTV isn't necessarily sanctioned by group.

Of course another problem is that Silent Hill: Origins implies that The Order is a well-structured organization when it wasn't. Not until a decade later, when Vincent and Claudia reorganized the church, was the group more put-together. Before then, it was just an underground cult.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
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Is it possible that during the "late" stages of the Order in modern day they were shifting to organization so they had a few things starting to work, but this stalled, obviously, and was only picked up again when Claudia and Vincent came around?

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RESPECT
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There's always the possibility, but w/out any evidence to support the claim, there's little nothing to prove said claim.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
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You mean besides the implication in SH:O?

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Just Passing Through
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Arsonist wrote:
Even if we say that Alessa isn’t evil, we still see her being a complete sadist in the game. She grins every time she causes Travis pain and makes him pass out, she grins especially gleefully when he finally goes ape-shit on her.

I didn't like that either. But in the PS2 version they corrected that. She never smirks there.

But despite that, there are a couple of things in SH3 that imply that she has a sadistic streak.

Quote:
She is also, clearly manipulative, there is no way you can deny that.

Cybil and Lisa would agree.
Though she never manipulated them or Travis for shits and giggles, it was only to achieve her goal.

Quote:
She went from “Oh, but mommy, I just want to be with you!” to “Oh, but mommy, I just want to tentacle rape you with barbed wire!” in a matter of hours.

But she doesn't. And even if she would, it'd make sense. She told Dahlia 'I just want to be with you' back when everything was normal. After Dahlia burned her to death, yes, I expect her to be at least displeased with her mom about that.

And in SH1, she intends to erase everyone in the Otherworld, including Dahlia.

Quote:
And a few other things. There she is, watching the actors practice for the play and thinks “Hm, I don’t really like this Prospero guy, he reminds me of Dahlia. Hmm… What should I do? Oh, I know! Fry the actor’s Brains!”

Except she didn't fry them and most likely didn't give him the nosebleed on purpose.

Quote:
Maybe so. But it doesn’t change the fact that Kauffman doesn’t really want god to be born. He’s just using the cult for his finances, like Vincent.

He had always been part of the plan, up until he saw the consequences. Like Vincent who believes in God but after seeing her work he is not amused.

Quote:
Also, the fire destroyed six other houses in the process, but in Origins, there doesn’t seem to be any houses anywhere remotely near the Gillespie residence.

We don't see much of the surroundings anyway, but Lisa tells Travis that the fire took place in the "business district", just like the newspaper article in SH1 did.

Quote:
Another sort of related thing, Lisa’s age. It is officially announced that Lisa is sixteen in Origins, is it even possible for a sixteen year old to be anything other then a volunteer in the hospital?

Trainee.

Quote:
If I was in Lisa’s position, I’d totally pull a James and put a pillow over that shit.

Yes even Harry was tempted to kill her.

MMY wrote:
M.K. is, at least according to Silent Hill: Origins, though he wasn't in Silent Hill

I've always understood that Kaufmann was part of the cult. He was too involved and knew way too many details.


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RESPECT
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>You mean besides the implication in SH:O?
That's the problem. I don't think one can safely use retrogressions from Silent Hill: Origins to prove its canonicity. I mean, you can't use examples from the game in question to verify what the game suggests, esp. if said game contradicts what has previously been established.

As such, see below.

>I've always understood that Kaufmann was part of the cult.
A common misunderstanding.
Quote:
Q: What sort of partnership did Dahlia and Kaufmann have?
A: One centered around drugs and magic.
Dahlia and Kaufmann were connected by the trade of White Claudia, used to make the drug PTV. [. . .] In short, despite the fact that the religious cult to which Dahlia belongs is a secret society, they have come to possess the sort of structure and organizational capability that allows them to manufacture narcotics beyond the reach of police surveillance. White Claudia, which is refined into the extremely powerful drug PTV, is transferred out of the cult and sold chiefly to tourists by Kaufmann. In return, Kaufmann carries out illegal medical dealings, such as phony autopsy reports and diverting pharmaceuticals into illegal channels. [. . .] Kaufmann's desire, the scope of which illustrates his worldly self-interests, was the profit yielded by the drug. Kaufmann is a realist by nature who does not believe in things like spells and black magic, but he accepted the responsibility of caring for Alessa so that the White Claudia exchange would continue to take place in his favor. However, being a firsthand witness to the deaths of the mayor and a narcotics officer, both of which were brought about by means of the magic drawn from the embryonic malevolent god's power, it seems he came to the decision that if the magic was something he could use, he would take advantage of it.

Silent Hill Official Guidebook Complete Edition. Tokyo: Konami Computer Entertainment, 1999.
In short: All M.K. was involved in was the PTV trade.

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Hope House Careworker
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I’m pretty sure that Translated Memories stated that Dahlia was the one who started the fire. It ain’t called the “immolation ritual” for nothing.

It also states that Alessa’s body was found in the basement. The police concluded that the fire was cause by a faulty boiler, I always figured the cops were either in the cult, or that Dahlia sabotaged the said boiler.

Also, the fire destroyed six other houses in the process, but in Origins, there doesn’t seem to be any houses anywhere remotely near the Gillespie residence.


To be fair, I'd like to clear some things up. I just did a search over of Translated Memories, and I didn't find anything that said that Alessa was found in the basement, so if I'm being dense and it's there, could you link me to the page?

Also, the SH1 guidebook makes a point of telling us that Kaufmann deals out phony autopsy reports, and it also says that he goes so far as to prepare a fake body to plant at the scene of the crime.

In SH: Origins' defense, the newspaper article that is found in the PAL version of SH1 (but is absent from the version the United States) can be linked to Kaufmann's phony autopsy report, and that report could very easily state that she was found in the basement.

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Historical Society Historian
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Which adds another problem as in 0rigins, he's apparently savvy with Alessa's powers and how it works.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Hope House Careworker
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AuraTwilight wrote:
First of all, Arsonist, it's [spoiler], not [spoil]. Might want to edit your posts accordingly.

I also agree with your Alessa point about her sadism, but I don't think [spoiler]Travis is a serial killer; there's really no damned evidence for it, imo, and I have much better and cooler theories.[/spoiler]



Nillin wrote:
To be fair, I'd like to clear some things up. I just did a search over of Translated Memories, and I didn't find anything that said that Alessa was found in the basement, so if I'm being dense and it's there, could you link me to the page?



Image

Epic fail by my part. I apologize for being a tard.

Aura, thanks for pointing out. I wish I noticed earlier. Sorry if I spoiled it for anybody.

[spoiler] And Aura, while I do agree that you theories are much cooler, and actually make Origins less cliché and more interesting. You gotta keep in mind that virtually everyone came to the same conclusion after receiving the Butcher ending.[/spoiler]

Nillin… damn, you’re right. There was no ill intent, I assure you. It was just a mistake, brought upon by over-confidence. I thought for sure that the Alessa’s history section pointed out that it was announced that Alessa’s body was found in the basement of the Gillespie house, but I was wrong, it merely states that she was found in the house.

Quote:
Well, he was there in the hospital room when they were talking about the half soul and whatnot. At the very least, he was involved enough; IMO, he just didn't expect Dahlia's vision and stuff, and the whole Hellish Otherworld thing was a surprise. More, "What the hell? I thought we were just summoning a little godling to help our drug ring."

…

Um, hello? This is the Order we're talking about, which pays her in drugs? I don't think they give a shit about child labor laws if they're serving up some Turky Fried Alessa with a side order of Hell.


MMY has got it covered.

Quote:
Not necessarily. Maybe they learned about the theatre incident and then experimented. Or hell, maybe they just experimented the limits of her power when they learned she had any at all, the same way Dahlia "knew" she could give birth to God. She didn't know, she just tried and hoped for the best, lol. Or maybe she accidentally killed a classmate, and while consoling her, Dahlia's like "My baby can fucking kill people! Radical!"


Gotta love that -set everything on fire and hope for the best- way of thinking.

And, that is even more filled with assumptions then the idea of Dahlia borrowing Alessa’s powers.

Quote:
Then why be so verbally abusive? And it's not like he can leave anyway; why not be more useful and have his survival instinct manifest better weapons, or fight against the Id to keep monsters from manifesting, or something?


Mine inner voice is ALWAYS verbally abusive to me… Anyway, survival instinct isn’t conscious, it’s just an instinct. Didn’t you ever think to yourself –“Oh shit, I gotta get out of here” even though, realistically you couldn’t get out? It’s an instinct, it’s a fear, it’s not rational.

Quote:
I don't mean the mere game mechanics, I mean the actual plotline acknowledgement of such. Cynthia and Angela don't really count anyway, as Cynthia vanished by waking up, and Angela is in a totally different reality.

Anyway, if it's not in the game, I KNOW it's in the Play Novel; in one scene in the hospital, Harry can try and chase her, and when he turns the corner just half a foot behind her, she's gone, and he even says so; "She's gone...what the hell?"


I actually meant the way Cynthia manifests next to Henry in the subway train when ever he walks through a door, like Maria did in SH2. Didn’t Lisa (in SHO), Cybil (in SH1), Douglas (in SH3) as well as Andrew and Richard (in SH4) demonstrate a similar vanishing power?

I never played the Play Novel, so correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that thing considered not to be cannon?

Quote:
Hm. Good point. I could argue things like the fact that Kauffman shot her from outside her field of vision and the shield requires such, but instead, I'll revise the idea: Maybe Alessa's love for her mother was protecting Dahlia at that point. She's reasonably mad at her mummy for doing what she did, but she's not gonna let some cop girl shoot her. But Kauffman got in a hit because Alessa is delirious, losing control of her powers and mind, etc.


Stretching. Why is Dahlia so confident that Alessa will protect her?

And considering that Alessa did use the power of telekinesis and shielding herself before the Flauros incident, does that mean that she cast the spell for them too, or are those her natural born abilities. If they are, wouldn’t it be easier to assume that Dahlia temporarily stole them using the Flauros?

Quote:
Lost Memories and the Play Novel lend credit to the theory that she was suffering Alessa's nightmares from proximity to her. Hell, the movie even drew on it.


All the more reason to tell someone and get clean.

------------------------PartyHard

Quote:
I didn't like that either. But in the PS2 version they corrected that. She never smirks there.


The fact that they put it there in the first place speaks of there lack of knowledge about her character.

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But despite that, there are a couple of things in SH3 that imply that she has a sadistic streak.


Like what? I must have missed it. Or are you referring to the statement of a brainwashed madwoman? I took anything she said with a grain of salt. And even if that really happened, who’s to say that Alessa didn’t share Claudia’s vision of paradise before the burning. I fail to see how wishing for the salvation of mankind and everlasting happiness is sadistic.

Quote:
Cybil and Lisa would agree.
Though she never manipulated them or Travis for shits and giggles, it was only to achieve her goal.


I don’t see how Lisa was being manipulated. She was just resurrected, that’s all. As for Cybil, we don’t really know how she became possessed. We can only guess.

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But she doesn't. And even if she would, it'd make sense. She told Dahlia 'I just want to be with you' back when everything was normal. After Dahlia burned her to death, yes, I expect her to be at least displeased with her mom about that.


She unleashed a shitload of monsters, surely they weren’t there to give Dahlia the Mommy of the year award.

Besides, that was said only hours before. I doubt that she would stop loving mommy so quickly.

Speaking of which, it was hours before, wasn’t it? The biggest trauma of her life happened just hours before and she doesn’t even shed a tear? Instead she’s calm, cold and collected. A contradiction to what we’ve seen in SH1’s flash-backs and what we heard in SH3’s chapel. There, it almost seemed like all she ever did was cry.

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And in SH1, she intends to erase everyone in the Otherworld, including Dahlia.


To be fair, that was after a seven years of horrible torture. And simply erasing someone’s existence seems like a much more peaceful death then say, sending a two-back to vomit acid in there face.

It’s also quite possible that Dahlia is in there by her own free will, trying to stop Alessa from destroying god.

Quote:
We don't see much of the surroundings anyway, but Lisa tells Travis that the fire took place in the "business district", just like the newspaper article in SH1 did.


Oh, c’mon. They were in the middle of nowhere. Yes she said they were in the business district, and maybe they were, but there were no houses or stores anywhere remotely near the Gillespie residence. How do you suppose the fire spread to six houses? Especially if you consider that we hear the fire siren after Travis passes out and that the grass was probably wet due to rain.

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Trainee.


I though it was 18, or at least 17. :?

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Yes even Harry was tempted to kill her.


That was out of fear though, not compassion. Besides, he was tempted to kill her reincarnation, not Alessa herself.


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Brookhaven Receptionist
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Missing since: 30 Nov 2003
Notes left: 837
Last seen at: Pennsylvania
AuraTwilight wrote:
I figured that Dahlia simply forced Alessa to use her powers to kill Gucci and the mayor


I never thought of that; I'd say there's a strong possibility.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11371
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
And Aura, while I do agree that you theories are much cooler, and actually make Origins less cliché and more interesting. You gotta keep in mind that virtually everyone came to the same conclusion after receiving the Butcher ending.


Not really; everyone was fairly divided into two camps, and the "Serial killer" thing was based on a few off-hand phrases of dialogue with no context in an obscure, now non-canon ending, and it's not supported by anything in the game. It'd be like saying SH1 was Harry's dying dream.

Quote:
Mine inner voice is ALWAYS verbally abusive to me… Anyway, survival instinct isn’t conscious, it’s just an instinct. Didn’t you ever think to yourself –“Oh shit, I gotta get out of here” even though, realistically you couldn’t get out? It’s an instinct, it’s a fear, it’s not rational.


Then why manifest as notes at all? Why not have him mumble "I gotta get out of here" like everyone else?

Quote:
I actually meant the way Cynthia manifests next to Henry in the subway train when ever he walks through a door, like Maria did in SH2. Didn’t Lisa (in SHO), Cybil (in SH1), Douglas (in SH3) as well as Andrew and Richard (in SH4) demonstrate a similar vanishing power?


Well, no, not really, for one thing, all those people use doors that you can actually use, that don't seem to lead into brick-walls on the outside. Second of all, Cynthia and Maria are behaving that way due to Escort Missioning hur.

Quote:
I never played the Play Novel, so correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that thing considered not to be cannon?


I consider it semi-canonical, as it kind've gives light on things SH1 didn't cover, like what Cybil was up to, and whatnot.

Quote:
Stretching. Why is Dahlia so confident that Alessa will protect her?


Because Alessa still loves Dahlia more than anything, and if Alessa wanted her to die, she would've much earlier. I can only assume that Dahlia's only alive because of Alessa's love, since there is no way in hell Dahlia can fight off monsters.

Quote:
And considering that Alessa did use the power of telekinesis and shielding herself before the Flauros incident, does that mean that she cast the spell for them too, or are those her natural born abilities. If they are, wouldn’t it be easier to assume that Dahlia temporarily stole them using the Flauros?


Dahlia didn't steal anything, though, that's the point. The Flauros just doesn't work that way. It's a cage, not a power-switcheroo-receptacle, and it's not like Dahlia is really in control anyway. Alessa still has a subconscious influence.

If we have to assume something, we should probably assume Alessa is protecting Dahlia against Scary Cop Lady Who I Tried To Kill.

Quote:
I don’t see how Lisa was being manipulated. She was just resurrected, that’s all. As for Cybil, we don’t really know how she became possessed. We can only guess.


I suppose Alessa just accidentally possessed Cybil, then. She pretty clearly had one of her parasites tackle her. As for Lisa, really? You don't see how Alessa is so obviously using Lisa as a pawn to appeal to Harry's good nature and distract him from interrupting Alessa's plans to complete the Seal? "Harry, stay with me, please, pleaaassse!"

Quote:
She unleashed a shitload of monsters, surely they weren’t there to give Dahlia the Mommy of the year award.


Alessa pulled a shitload of people into the Otherworld besides Dahlia, you know. Like all the people she kills before Harry apparently wakes up.

Quote:
Speaking of which, it was hours before, wasn’t it? The biggest trauma of her life happened just hours before and she doesn’t even shed a tear? Instead she’s calm, cold and collected. A contradiction to what we’ve seen in SH1’s flash-backs and what we heard in SH3’s chapel. There, it almost seemed like all she ever did was cry.


Er...she um....went into a coma, dude.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 20 Nov 2008
Notes left: 132
Arsonist wrote:
Like what? I must have missed it. Or are you referring to the statement of a brainwashed madwoman?

No, nothing like that- besides, Claudia never implied that Alessa had any malice, she thought that she was perfect, flawless.

I mean stuff like when you examine the knife she says "I know it's terrible, but I just love walking around with this". She doesn't deny to "enjoy spilling their blood and listening to them cry out... feel excited when you step on them, snuffing out their lives." After the final battle she kicks God again and again. And the Possessed Ending.

Quote:
don’t see how Lisa was being manipulated. She was just resurrected, that’s all. As for Cybil, we don’t really know how she became possessed. We can only guess.

What Aura said. Additionally, we clearly see when Alessa's control weakens how it affects Lisa. In PN it's clear who controls Cybil, too.

Quote:
She unleashed a shitload of monsters, surely they weren’t there to give Dahlia the Mommy of the year award.

As she did in SH1.
Where we see that after all this she no longer begs her, she demands "get away from me!" And in SH3 she instinctively is about to call Dahlia 'moma/mother' but the stops herself and uses her name instead. Seems like Dahlia's actions do affect Alessa's opinion for her.
Also,
Silent Hill Chronicles: "If the seal were to be completed, Harry, Cybil, Dahlia and the others would all be annihilated along with Alessa".

Quote:
contradiction to what we’ve seen in SH1’s flash-backs and what we heard in SH3’s chapel. There, it almost seemed like all she ever did was cry.

Those are flashbacks of her life before the fire.

Quote:
Oh, c’mon. They were in the middle of nowhere. Yes she said they were in the business district, and maybe they were, but there were no houses or stores anywhere remotely near the Gillespie residence. How do you suppose the fire spread to six houses?

See the Gillespie house in the SH1 intro. Also,
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

AuraTwilight wrote:
If we have to assume something, we should probably assume Alessa is protecting Dahlia against Scary Cop Lady Who I Tried To Kill.

It's a possibility, but I assume that if Alessa had any power like that left, she'd use it to attempt to stop the ritual she had been fighting against for seven years and during the events of SH1, not to save the one who is about to make all her desperate efforts be in vain.


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RESPECT
 Post subject:

Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19397
Last seen at: #lfk
>I didn't find anything that said that Alessa was found in the basement
You're looking through the wrong translation of the wrong book. Silent Hill Guidebook Complete Edition covers Alessa's whereabouts after the immolation:
Quote:
Dahlia performed the technique to bring about the descent of the cult's god using Alessa in the cellar of her own house. Although it seems the cult has a place they use for rituals, Dahlia was confident that she would be able to summon the malevolent deity if Alessa was the surrogate mother; therefore, as it was not necessary to choose a location, she impulsively carried out the ritual in her own basement.
Boosh.

_________________
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 12 Jan 2009
Notes left: 648
Quote:
Not really; everyone was fairly divided into two camps, and the "Serial killer" thing was based on a few off-hand phrases of dialogue with no context in an obscure, now non-canon ending, and it's not supported by anything in the game. It'd be like saying SH1 was Harry's dying dream.


Glad to hear it. I always thought that the whole butcher idea is fairly ridicules.

Thanks to you, I don’t think Origins sucks quite so much anymore.

Quote:
Then why manifest as notes at all? Why not have him mumble "I gotta get out of here" like everyone else?


Cause it’s Silent Hill, it wouldn’t be the first time that inner, subconscious thoughts manifest themselves as writing.

Quote:
Well, no, not really, for one thing, all those people use doors that you can actually use, that don't seem to lead into brick-walls on the outside. Second of all, Cynthia and Maria are behaving that way due to Escort Missioning hur.


Fine.

Quote:
I consider it semi-canonical, as it kind've gives light on things SH1 didn't cover, like what Cybil was up to, and whatnot.


Yeah, but, doesn’t it kind of contradict itself sometimes. Like, if you go through one path during the Cybil scenario, she will remember that she witnessed the murder of her parents as a child, but if you go the other, you’ll see that Cybil was dead all along and that her parents are at her funeral.

I always figured play novel was just for fun, not having much to do with the SH1’s cannon.

Quote:
Because Alessa still loves Dahlia more than anything, and if Alessa wanted her to die, she would've much earlier. I can only assume that Dahlia's only alive because of Alessa's love, since there is no way in hell Dahlia can fight off monsters.


Yes, but last time Dahlia saw Alessa was seven years a go. Again I ask, why is Dahlia so confident Alessa will protect her?

Quote:
Dahlia didn't steal anything, though, that's the point. The Flauros just doesn't work that way. It's a cage, not a power-switcheroo-receptacle, and it's not like Dahlia is really in control anyway. Alessa still has a subconscious influence.

If we have to assume something, we should probably assume Alessa is protecting Dahlia against Scary Cop Lady Who I Tried To Kill.


Scary Cop Lady Who Will Stop The Ritual Which Will Cause Mass Destruction you mean?

Besides, how do you know how Flauros works in the game? Amy official explanation, or in-game-evidence?

From the in-game evidence, one can come to the conclusion that it gave Dahlia a small piece of Alessa’s powers, or at least some control over them.

Quote:
I suppose Alessa just accidentally possessed Cybil, then. She pretty clearly had one of her parasites tackle her. As for Lisa, really? You don't see how Alessa is so obviously using Lisa as a pawn to appeal to Harry's good nature and distract him from interrupting Alessa's plans to complete the Seal? "Harry, stay with me, please, pleaaassse!"


Are you insinuating that Alessa is controlling every single monster?

For all we know, the attack happened because Cybil became aware of the Otherworld, and therefore its monsters. Finally, with her belief she could interact with the creations of the said otherworld.

As for Lisa, I just figured that was her cowardliness and weakness which she demonstrated before her death.

Even if she does manipulate her, I doubt that she is controlling everything Lisa says like you seem to insinuate she does.

Quote:
Alessa pulled a shitload of people into the Otherworld besides Dahlia, you know. Like all the people she kills before Harry apparently wakes up.


I always figured that the corpses were just manifestation like in the rest of Silent Hill games.

Quote:
Er...she um....went into a coma, dude.


That prevents her astral-self from expressing sadness, but not pleasure and wrath (SHO) or fear (SH1)?

-----------------PartyHard


Quote:
I mean stuff like when you examine the knife she says "I know it's terrible, but I just love walking around with this". She doesn't deny to "enjoy spilling their blood and listening to them cry out... feel excited when you step on them, snuffing out their lives." After the final battle she kicks God again and again. And the Possessed Ending.


That’s Heather though. Even though she is a reincarnation of Alessa, they think differently and posses different personalities due to the way they were raised.

Besides I'd feel kind of bad-ass too if i was carrying a knife around, plus, that god was the reason for all of her suffering. You don't have to be a sadist to be pissed at it.

Quote:
What Aura said. Additionally, we clearly see when Alessa's control weakens how it affects Lisa. In PN it's clear who controls Cybil, too.


Or maybe Lisa turned into a monster because she realized she’s a manifestation just like other monsters, and because of that, she strongly believed that she will turn into one? It wouldn’t be the first time that the Otherworld makes beliefs real.

As for PN, it also indicates that Dahlia is good, Lisa is evil, Cybil is dead, that her parents are alive, that her parents are dead, that Harry is a serial killer and that Cheryl and Alessa want to unite back into one. Basically, it being a “choose your own adventure” game and having some major contradictions with the Game and itself, I wouldn’t buy into what ever the play novel says.

Quote:
As she did in SH1.
Where we see that after all this she no longer begs her, she demands "get away from me!" And in SH3 she instinctively is about to call Dahlia 'moma/mother' but the stops herself and uses her name instead. Seems like Dahlia's actions do affect Alessa's opinion for her.
Also,
Silent Hill Chronicles: "If the seal were to be completed, Harry, Cybil, Dahlia and the others would all be annihilated along with Alessa".


Alessa still said "get away from me" out of fear. And it was heather who called Dahlia by her name, Alessa still called he "mama".

Quote:
Those are flashbacks of her life before the fire.


Minutes before the fire, yes. Don't you think she'd be a least bit saddned about being burned alive by her mommy?

Quote:
See the Gillespie house in the SH1 intro.


Yeah, but intro isn’t a very good source of information either. In it, we see the burnt Alessa getting up and smiling.

--------Also

Quote:
You're looking through the wrong translation of the wrong book. Silent Hill Guidebook Complete Edition covers Alessa's whereabouts after the immolation


Thank you! I KNEW I read it somewhere! Now I don’t feel like an idiot no more! :P


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 18 Dec 2006
Notes left: 708
Quote:
You're looking through the wrong translation of the wrong book. Silent Hill Guidebook Complete Edition covers Alessa's whereabouts after the immolation:


That says the ritual was carried out in the basement, not that her body was found there. Who's to say she didn't throw some magic dust on the ground, set fire to the boiler, then run out of the house leaving Alessa in her room?

Or who's to say that the Halo of the Sun didn't play a part and she zapped up to the second floor where Dahlia drew the Halo?

_________________
I once was lost, but am now profound.


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