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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Why Did Dahlia Lie?
     
         
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Missing since: 25 Mar 2009
Notes left: 1345
Last seen at: Ann Arbor, Michigan
This is one of those things I've always sort of taken for granted, but now that I give it some thought, it makes absolutely no sense to me.

Why did Dahlia lie to Harry? Why call the "Virun VII" crest by another name? People say it's because she's being manipulative, but so what? She can't be manipulative by calling it the "Virun VII" crest? Would calling it the "Virun VII" crest cause Harry to suddenly understand Dahlia's little game? Would he suddenly blurt out "AHA! I SEE WAT U DID THAR!" and ruin Dahlia's plans?

Harry doesn't know jack shit what a "Mark of Samael" is, or for that matter, what a "Virun VII" crest is. The man probably thinks he's carrying around a bottle of cherry Kool-Aid.

Just who does Dahlia think she's fooling? Why construct a web of lies for a man who doesn't even know how to run and fire a gun at the same time?


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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
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Last seen at: In the anals of forum history
"Samael' has that exotic Hebrew sound that a layman like Harry might automatically assume is demonic. Samael is commonly attributed to such beings, and Harry may or may not be aware of it. To have used Satan directly may have been too much. Could Harry really stand a chance against the Prince of Darkness? Maybe not. But Samael sounds almost as sinister. Harry may or may not have a working knowledge of demonology. If he does, all the better. If not, it'll still scare him enough to fight but not enough to where he thinks he has no chance.

If she told the truth and simply said "VIRUN VII", she'd have gotten a 'wtf' at best and it would have required more explanation. It's not a very imposing title. The best lies are the ones that don't require details.

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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 28 Feb 2006
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I second all that, Mark of Samael sounds evil/demonic, Virun VII Crest would be like 'wtf?'. Even though Harry is pretty much Mr. WTF the whole way through the Samael thing just sounds like someones up to no good spreading it around the place.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
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Missing since: 25 Mar 2009
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I mean, Dahlia pretty much got a "wtf?!" even with the Mark of Samael moniker. I find it hard to believe that she just had to call it by some evil, sinister-sounding name just to make her point, unless the game is purposefully trying to sound melodramatic.

Maybe the "Virun VII" crest is actually referred to as the "Mark of Samael" in some circles of The Order? It could be a nickname or something. I just don't for the life of me see what changing the name does in the overall scheme of things.


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She's a crazy bitch that was being overly secretive with her plan. Her mentality must have made her think that letting him know the true name of the crest would have somehow revealed everything.


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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
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I don't think the name "Samael" is specifically important to the idea. It could have been "The Mark of Baphomet" or "any other such vaguely demonic-sounding name. The point was to get Harry to accept that there was a demon causing all this trouble and the demon appeared in the form of a child.

Harry wouldn't otherwise care about taking down a demon. He's here to save his little girl. She has to alter his priorities a little. "Virun VII" sounds vague and not at all threatening. Thus, she uses the name that sounds demonic, and that he might even be able to identify as demonic.

Alternatively, she might have used the name to spite the religions who use the term in what may be the worse crime imaginable to her: blaspheming her God.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2007
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Well, it depends on how you look at it.

If you isolate SH1 as a single entity and look to the Siren series as a reference, it's possible that Toyama actually meant for it to be the Mark of Samael and for the final boss to be named Samael, the only question being whether one considered Samael to be a savior or a demon (Dahlia would therefore be a type of Satanist... and there is a branch of Satanists who believe God was cast down into Hell and became Satan).

After SH2 laid the groundwork for how Silent Hill works, things became messier. Suddenly, real gods and demons weren't a viable option, as the focus had irrevocably turned to human perception and experience. Therefore, when SH3 came around, the name-swapping of the Mark of Samael became a part of that overarching theme of perception. In short, a retcon, but a reasonable one.

In-universe, I suppose you'd have to go back to Dahlia trying to work on Harry's cultural perspective. "Virun VII" is bad enough, "Samael" is even worse. Anyone with even the slightest bit of knowledge in demonology knows which camp Samael is in, and anyone who was raised in a Christian environment would likely consider Samael to be a very bad thing. I guess it's Dahlia taking no chances on what is probably the most useful tool she had.


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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
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It was never meant to be the Mark of Samael. Dahlia later refers to the mark with a considerably less offensive designation: The Talisman of Metatron. As Metatron is an angel, and definitely not a bad one if you know your angels, that name simply wouldn't have done. It wasn't until Silent Hill 3 that we knew for sure that the Mark and the Talisman were the same thing, but as there is no other good explanation for the remark to be made, clearly the "Mark of Samael" was always intended to be a deception.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2007
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You're right, I forgot about that.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
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Last seen at: The Wand'ring Wood
Yeah, pretty much what Ryan said. Dahlia did it also to spur Harry on and create this prejudice in his mind that the image of Alessa ("the demon taking that child's form!") and the crest were evil things meant to be stopped. Harry was her pawn because she couldn't freely move between the worlds like he could, so... lie to Harry, get him to do your dirty work = profit. Simple.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Also, it was totally funny. Dahlia did it for the Evulz.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 24 Apr 2009
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Last seen at: Green Lion Antique Shop
Dahlia lied him to make him think that he was facing a demon who kidnapped her daughter.

Anyway, the name Samael sounds more evil to be named "demon" than "Metatron" don´t you think ?

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 02 Jun 2009
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Samael isn't another name for Satan, he's the angel of death in Christianity and Judaism ala the Grim Reaper, the chief and governor of the Fifth Heaven who rules over two million angels. Satan is the liar and accuser of the brethren and pious. They are two seperate entities but obviously there were satanic things taking place with all the demons running amok. In some theories Samael is identified as being the serpent that tempted and suduced Eve in the garden of Eden. Samael in Silent Hill is perceived as a god worshipped by the cult that Dahlia leads referring to Gnosticism and she needed Cheryl to give birth unto him. Also Heather from SH3.

Also while Metatron comes into play, Samael and Metatron are related to the Ascension of Moses.


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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Samael is, in Judeo-Christianity, ha-Satan, or The Adversary, or the devil, or Satan.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
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Missing since: 25 Mar 2009
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Um...no. Samael is the angel of death. A simple check on Wikipedia would make this clear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samael


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 20 Jun 2009
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what? Samael and Satan are NOT the same. Their roles are similar in some texts, but it is very clear that they are separate entities. Someone needs to brush up on their apocrypha.

And also, the layman Christian, I imagine, should be familiar with the suffix -el, meaning of God. I don't see how one, especially a layman, would think of Samael as evil. The exotic Hebrew vibe of the name comes from the suffix, which is given to Angels.

I genuinely believe that this is simply retconning, as someone has stated, and not Dahlia being manipulative for absolutely no reason.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Or Harry doesn't know shit about theology and figured Samael was an evil demon because pop culture portrays him as such.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 20 Jun 2009
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I have never heard the name Samael in pop culture, nonetheless in reference of a demon. Aside from Silent Hill.

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The Gospel of Thomas, logion 7.


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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Wikipedia is not a reliable source in most cases.

>Someone needs to brush up on their apocrypha.
Someone needs to read more.

>I don't see how one, especially a layman, would think of Samael as evil.
Really? Huh. . . .

The suffix -el does in fact mean "of G-d" or "angel." The prefix sam- means "poison" or "venom." Samael, then, is "poison of G-d." Nothing sinister there, no. . . .

According to Gustav Davidson's A Dictionary of Angels including the fallen angels, "In rabbinic literature, Samael is chief of the Satans and the angel of death" (255). The Sayings of Rabbi Eliezer charge Samael "with being the one (in the guise of a serpent) who tempted Eve"—or, you know, ha-satan (the adversary). The Zohar equates Samael with the one who tempted David. In The Ascension of Isaiah, Samael and Satan are interchangeable in the passage, "We ascended to the firmament, I and he, and there I saw Samael and his hosts, and there was great fighting therein and the angels of Satan were envying one another."

Take note, also, Satan is a fallen angel. When the angels fell from Heaven, they did not change their names. Samael is no different. The only exception to this I can immediately recall—oh, yeah, I've studied angel/demonology for over a decade—is Zephon, who, after rebelling against G-d, changed his name to Xaphan.

* CODICIL
Targum Yontan on Bereshit 3:6 writes, "And the woman beheld Sammael, the angel of death, and was afraid; yet she knew that the tree was good to eat, and that it was medicine for the enlightenment of the eyes, and desirable tree by means of which to understand. And she took of its fruit, and did eat; and she gave to her husband with her, and he did eat."

So, Talmudic and Kabbalistic writings as well.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 20 Jun 2009
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MMY wrote:
Wikipedia is not a reliable source in most cases.

>Someone needs to brush up on their apocrypha.
Someone needs to read more.

>I don't see how one, especially a layman, would think of Samael as evil.
Really? Huh. . . .

The suffix -el does in fact mean "of G-d" or "angel." The prefix sam- means "poison" or "venom." Samael, then, is "poison of G-d." Nothing sinister there, no. . . .

According to Gustav Davidson's A Dictionary of Angels including the fallen angels, "In rabbinic literature, Samael is chief of the Satans and the angel of death" (255). The Sayings of Rabbi Eliezer charge Samael "with being the one (in the guise of a serpent) who tempted Eve"—or, you know, ha-satan (the adversary). The Zohar equates Samael with the one who tempted David. In The Ascension of Isaiah, Samael and Satan are interchangeable in the passage, "We ascended to the firmament, I and he, and there I saw Samael and his hosts, and there was great fighting therein and the angels of Satan were envying one another."

Take note, also, Satan is a fallen angel. When the angels fell from Heaven, they did not change their names. Samael is no different. The only exception to this I can immediately recall—oh, yeah, I've studied angel/demonology for over a decade—is Zephon, who, after rebelling against G-d, changed his name to Xaphan.


In this case, wikipedia IS a reliable source.

The etymology behind Samael has been controversial for ages. His role in classical rabbinic texts would justify his name meaning 'Poison of God', or 'Venom of God', as he has been depicted as the one carrying out God's wrath in multiple cases. Also, it is argued to be derived from 'sami' meaning 'blind', and Samael, of course, has been depicted as being blind in Gnosticism, as the Demiurge.

As I said, in classic texts some of the roles that have been attributed to Satan were originally attributed to Samael. The idea of Samael and Satan being the same entity was actually recently conceived in the collective consciousness, mostly in Medieval texts and schools, such as Kabbalah, which, arguably, was conceived over a Millennium after the Old Testament and classical rabbinic texts, filtered through Gnosticism, Christianity and centuries of differing opinions. It is worth noting that in the Book of Enoch Satan's angelic name is given as Satanael. Are you a kabbalist by chance?

Also, you are forgetting that the noun 'satan' as you said, meaning Adversary has been used as a sort of title for other entities, and not just Samael. Surely, every being ever referred to as 'satan' must be the modern, Miltonian Satan.

Yes, I was simply bringing up the angelic name as I do not understand why a western man with a minimum knowledge of theology would equate the name 'Samael' with evil, as only after reading the texts could one determine that he has been referred to as a tempter, as the angel of death, etcetera etcetera.


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