Separation Paradox [spoilers for SH1 and SH3]

[AuraTwilight]

But you didn't answer my question: Why doesn't Incubator give Harry the baby in the Bad endings as well?

Because Harry shot her to death, duh.

[alone in the town]

I still don't think the clothes make any difference to either of our arguments.

Well, the clothes on the floor with the absence of Claudia's body seems to me to suggest that God transformed Claudia into the final result that Heather fights. Thus, why her clothing is on the floor. She grew out of it.

I don't think she was disintegrating. Where did you notice pieces of her body falling off?

I saw her skin disintegrating. I'm willing to bet what's left at the end probably forms some of the stains on God's body. Where did you see Claudia transform?

The clothing on the floor makes no sense to me in either of our scenarios. I would expect that if she a) was transformed or b) was destroyed, her clothing would not survive in a neat, arranged pile on the floor either way. That's why, yet again, I don't factor it. It doesn't help either of us.

I don't think it makes a difference whether or not they are separate. I believe God reverts into the Incubator just as you seem to. Where we disagree is on whether the Incubator is separate from Alessa.

You're arguing (or I thought you were) that Incubator and Incubus are both the same being (God). If one of capable of separating itself from the other, as the screenshot above proves, then they are by definition not the same being.

Which is the crux of my belief that Incubator = Alessa while Incubus = God.

I do believe they are the same being because they are the same being, Silent Hill Chronicle confirms that much.

Not to mention that Lost Memories does refer to Incubator as Alessa several times, along with flat-out saying (paraphrasing) "Alessa attacks Harry as Incubator."

This is directly contradicted later in the book, and unsupported by anything else. We've been through this argument before.

[KiramidHead]

I'd like to interject that, just because it is possibly a God, doesn't necessarily mean that it couldn't be killed. Even if it is a physical manifestation of a real being, the very fact that it has taken on a physical form would make it susceptible to physical death. God would survive in spirit, but its body would be killed.

[The Adversary]

>She grew out of it.
How is her dress still in one piece if she simply "grew out of it"?

[KiramidHead]

^How do the Hulk's shorts just grow several sizes while his shirt rips to shreds?

[DamienPales]

It's not a dress, it's a robe. If the belt tying the robe together breaks, then the clothing slides off. I've worn Franciscan robes before, so I know this to be the case.

[The Adversary]

So Claudia simply got taller? O.K.

[alone in the town]

It's not a dress, it's a robe. If the belt tying the robe together breaks, then the clothing slides off. I've worn Franciscan robes before, so I know this to be the case.

It's a dress, and it's in two pieces, one of which clearly buttons up the front.

PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER_SHOW PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER:

[DamienPales]

Eh, that's a much clearer picture than what I had.

I'm still convinced that the dress on the ground means something. Otherwise, why put it there? It's just a nagging detail.

[FiliusMartis]

When I first played I believed that Incubus came out of The Woman in White, who I believed to be the complete form of Alessa. The more I think about it (and after 20 pages of discussion) the transformation scenario makes more sense to me for a few reasons.

The only document I could find on Aglaophotis is in Silent Hill 3 and lists it as a derivative of an herb used to expel evil spirits. This is how we see it used when Harry saves Cybil. This is what happens when Heather takes it. This is most likely what Kaufman intends to do with it and what Dahlia is afraid he's going to do. However, once the Incubus starts to appear Kaufman says "What the..? What on Earth? That's not supposed to..." and Dahlia is laughing. Something went wrong; Agloaphotis did not work like it was supposed to.

Instead of focusing on the scene where Incubus appears, why not take a look at the scene after Harry has defeated it. It falls, there is a large ball of light, and as the light shrinks inward Incubus is replaced by the figure of the Woman in White. This one is clearly a transformation, and there's a distinct reason for it. The only reason god takes that form is to trick Harry into taking the baby. I think it's important to point out that god is not relying on the Order, or Claudia, to be reborn. If god can keep Heather alive as it did Alessa she will eventually suffer enough to feed god. She will have to watch everyone she loves die and not die herself; it's also likely that her body will feel the effects of age without succumbing to death. Even Claudia says she was "hasten[ing] the day of her arrival."

Now, in defense of the theory that Alessa is the Woman in White and gave Harry the baby out of pity- that is supported by Heather's own statements. She says that "the girl gave birth to a god," and a moment later "after the god was dead the girl reappeared." I reconcile this the same way I reconciled the boss fight of the bad endings: god is possessing Alessa's Woman in White form, the form she achieves as the Mother of God. There's no reason to believe this isn't possible; Cybil's demon/parasite/whatever uses her body to attack Harry. It also occurs to me that Heather doesn't really accept her identity until the Otherworld in the Church when she finds Harry's diary and muses, "So I was Alessa after all." So either way you take it her statements in the car do not nullify the transformation argument.

I always found Claudia's clothes to be less important than the comment that comes with them; they are clearly an indication that Claudia died birthing god- Heather even says so. I also took this to be a way of pointing out that the mother of god cannot survive the birth. I also thought it was a way of making you sympathize with Claudia a little bit- she doesn't seem to know that giving birth to god is going to kill Alessa until it kills her. If nothing else you can blame it on Valtiel.

[LennethValkyrie]

The god does come out of the woman in white.

Look at this texture:
http://circleofdestruction.net/silenthi ... inrobe.jpg

Do you see the large break in her skin on her back? It looks like she's molting. I suppose this changes things for a lot of you.

[JuriDawn]

That's the break in the skin where she grew wings. Nice try, though.

[LennethValkyrie]

That's the break in the skin where she grew wings. Nice try, though.

Why would their be one big hole for two wings? That's silly. There would be two slanted openings. How could wings being forced out create one giant hole?

Nice try though.

EDIT: Also, if she was just transforming, why would there be any break in the skin?

[AuraTwilight]

It's one big hole for two wings because wings bursting the fuck out of your back isn't going to be nice, neat, and pretty, especially since the two wings were tucked together.

There's a break in the skin because it's clearly super fucking painful, judging by the fact that it was caused by magic fucking acid thrown on her, and Silent Hill's horror is semi-realistic and doesn't rely on anime-style, neat Power Rangers transformations.

[LennethValkyrie]

If the wings came bursting out her back it indicates they were inside her. If she was changing from the inside out, then there would be no need for a hole in her back.

The color where the skin tore is the same brown as the incubus. It's shedding her like a cocoon. The only reason why we don't see any more of the tearing is because the game switches the model at that point.

[JuriDawn]

I've seen plenty of transformations, particularly in creature movies, in which a transformation involves a horrific tearing of skin, and/or protrusion of new features through the skin. It's nothing new.

Besides, I'm not even entirely sure I'm looking at a back wound in that image. It kinda looks like a cross between a vagina and a Pokéball.

[AuraTwilight]

If the wings came bursting out her back it indicates they were inside her. If she was changing from the inside out, then there would be no need for a hole in her back.

The color where the skin tore is the same brown as the incubus. It's shedding her like a cocoon. The only reason why we don't see any more of the tearing is because the game switches the model at that point.

In addiction to what Juri said, would you kindly explain Where the old shell went, then? It fucking disappears.

[LennethValkyrie]

I've seen plenty of transformations, particularly in creature movies, in which a transformation involves a horrific tearing of skin, and/or protrusion of new features through the skin. It's nothing new.

Besides, I'm not even entirely sure I'm looking at a back wound in that image. It kinda looks like a cross between a vagina and a Pokéball.

Whenever those transformations in creature movies take place and skin rips, it always indicates that the new creature is shedding the human that it transformed from. It's molting.

and that is obviously the back wound, there is nothing else it could be.

In addiction to what Juri said, would you kindly explain Where the old shell went, then? It fucking disappears.

Kaufmann also dissipates when the boss battle takes place. The game is clearing the stage for you to fight on. The girl returns as soon as it's over, bleeding from her back.

[JuriDawn]

Whenever those transformations in creature movies take place and skin rips, it always indicates that the new creature is shedding the human that it transformed from.

I think your understanding of "new creature" is different from what we're discussing here. It can either be a separate being or a transformation. The creature movies I'm thinking of are transformations. The first individual is not left lying on the ground as a discarded shell, he/she is the "new creature." Therefore, tearing skin does not necessarily mean that a different entity is pulling itself out of the person.

Kaufmann also dissipates when the boss battle takes place. The game is clearing the stage for you to fight on. The girl returns as soon as it's over, bleeding from her back.

We've been over this before. From page 7 of this thread:

Watch the video again. I think the reason some people see the Incubus pulling itself out of the white-clad woman's back is that the creators had relatively crude animation techniques for the first game. Morphing the figure from Incubator to Incubus would have been relatively complicated, so they stuck the two forms into the same space and tried to animate it as if it were a transformation. Try to keep in mind what the animators show you and what they choose not to show you:

We see the woman in white doubled over, and wings extrude from her back. The camera cuts away to a reaction shot of Harry and Dr. Kaufmann, and then we see the Incubus rising up from the doubled-over position that mimics the last shot of the woman in white. We do not see a complete Incubus emerge from a complete Incubator. If that were indeed what had happened, why wouldn't the developers show it?

Also, when Incubus rises up, the woman in white is gone, and not just because the area has been cleared for a boss fight. Dahlia and Kaufmann are still there, but Incubator is conspicuously absent.

(bold added for emphasis)

[LennethValkyrie]

I suppose that's right, I just watched it again. It's just so hard to shake first impressions when they made so much sense.

When you take into account what happens when the liquid is used on Cybil, then it's logical to assume something similar would happen when used on WIW.