Separation Paradox [spoilers for SH1 and SH3]

Post by **KiramidHead** » 03 Jul 2009

Shortly after I began lurking on this forum, I learned that the majority opinion is that Incubator and incubus are both, in fact, God, and I've accepted this. But one thing nags at me: Incubus is separated from Incubator when Kaufmann hurled the Aglaophotis at it. My question is, how does one separate something from itself, i.e., God from God?

GoodReads · Post by **Enika** » 03 Jul 2009

It says in the Book of Lost Memories that the Incubus is Dahlia's mental image of God, and Incubator is Alessa's mental image of God. I'm not sure if this answers your question, but it could help it along.

Post by **KiramidHead** » 03 Jul 2009

I understand this, but how is the whole separation thing to work? The mental images are what people expect to see, but it's not like Dahlia's image is parasitizing Alessa's.

Post by **Loveless_Dogg** » 04 Jul 2009

The "separation" was due to the technical limitations of the ps1.

Post by **AuraTwilight** » 04 Jul 2009

There was no separation. We see wings coming out of the Woman in White's back, then we cut away to the other characters, then we see the Incubus, with the Woman nowhere to be found. After you defeat the Incubus, it transforms into the Woman in White. It was a transformation, nothing more.

Post by **KiramidHead** » 04 Jul 2009

In my copy, I see incubus emerge from the incubator's back, after which the incubator disappears. I got the overall impression of a snake molting.

Post by **AuraTwilight** » 04 Jul 2009

Show pics or it didn't happen, because every example on Youtube disagrees and I highly doubt no one with this alternate sequence didn't upload it. You see the Incubus' wings emerge from the Incubators back, but there is a cut away.

Post by **KiramidHead** » 05 Jul 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaSDhCRBor4

When Incubus emerges, you can see wings, back, and shoulders. the head hasn't uncurled yet.

Post by **Silent Fantasy** » 05 Jul 2009

i always caught it as a seperation to. like incubus emerged FROM the incubater. but the fact still remains that... i dont really care either way.

GrievousGarland · Post by **GrievousGarland** » 05 Jul 2009

I was also under the impression that the incubus was a separate being from the incubator. That's what the red liquid does, it splits things. For explain, if you throw it on Cybil the parasite is forced out of her system. The same thing happens when the red liquid is thrown onto Alessa. The god part of her is forced out through her back and you're forced to fight it.

That's why in the good endings Harry receives Heather. Since the god was forced out of Alessa he wasn't forced to fight it while it's still inside her, like he does in both the bad endings.

Because Alessa herself isn't the final enemy in the good ending, and isn't being shot at, she still has enough energy to perform the process of rebirth necessary to make the baby for Harry.

That's how I see it at least. I also remember seeing blood on Alessa's back from where the god forced itself out of her. Did I imagine that?

Post by **AuraTwilight** » 05 Jul 2009

When Incubus emerges, you can see wings, back, and shoulders. the head hasn't uncurled yet.

You see wings, back, and shoulders, which are coming at the cost of the existence of the Incubator's own back and shoulders. If anything, they're "flipping inside out" into the other. And you still have to explain why the Incubator magically vanishes, and then the Incubus turns into her. They're the same being.

I was also under the impression that the incubus was a separate being from the incubator. That's what the red liquid does, it splits things. For explain, if you throw it on Cybil the parasite is forced out of her system. The same thing happens when the red liquid is thrown onto Alessa. The god part of her is forced out through her back and you're forced to fight it.

The Incubator is not Alessa.

GrievousGarland · Post by **GrievousGarland** » 05 Jul 2009

Why should we have to explain why the incubator vanishes? Dahlia and Kaufmann vanish too. Do you know why? They're clearing the floor for a boss battle.

and the incubator is the combination of Alessa and Cheryl. The full being that is capable of birthing god. Considering that Cheryl was half of Alessa anyway, it's safe to call the incubator "Alessa."

and explain why the red stuff would react different on Alessa then it does on Cybil. It's an expelling liquid. Kaufmann threw the stuff at Alessa to try to abort the god because "no one plays with him." What do you think his purpose was when he threw it? He was trying to fuck with Dahlia.

It's the same basic thing that happens when you use the stuff on Cybil. Harry crushes the bug with his foot. The god that is expelled is just a bigger bug.

Post by **AuraTwilight** » 05 Jul 2009

Why should we have to explain why the incubator vanishes? Dahlia and Kaufmann vanish too. Do you know why? They're clearing the floor for a boss battle.

Dahlia burns into ashes that could slip through the grating. Kauffman is flung away by magic, and then we see him get up and re enter the stage. Not only does the Incubator magically vanish, but the Incubus MAGICALLY TRANSFORMS INTO HER. She doesn't crawl up from unconsciousness on the ground somewhere like any other character.

and the incubator is the combination of Alessa and Cheryl. The full being that is capable of birthing god. Considering that Cheryl was half of Alessa anyway, it's safe to call the incubator "Alessa."

According to this: http://translatedmemories.com/bookpgs/Pg112-113.jpg , the Incubator is the image of what Alessa imagined God to be. Alessa/Cheryl die giving birth to God; that's why they need to be reincarnated.

The creators > You.

and explain why the red stuff would react different on Alessa then it does on Cybil. It's an expelling liquid. Kaufmann threw the stuff at Alessa to try to abort the god because "no one plays with him." What do you think his purpose was when he threw it? He was trying to fuck with Dahlia.

Kauffman was also probably expecting a little slug to come out. Since Aglaophotis is an herbal chemical that exists in the real world (yes, our world) and has no magical powers, it's probably most likely that the Aglaophotis behaves however Alessa thinks it should. It expels demonic parasites. Alessa sees God as a parasitic monster. God is already born, so instead of being exorcised, it's just extremely damaged (Cybil's parasite comes out sizzling and dying, so apparently the exorcism is done through basically half-killing the things).

Due to this damage, the God apparently takes on Dahlia's image of God and transforms to heal itself. Thus why, when the Incubus dies, it can transform back into the Incubator to use the last of it's life from the Aglaophotis attack to reincarnate it's mother, Alessa.

It's the same basic thing that happens when you use the stuff on Cybil. Harry crushes the bug with his foot. The god that is expelled is just a bigger bug.

The argument I've basically been getting is "Well it can't both be God because God is coming out of the Incubator's back. God can't come out of God."

If we're using that argument, then how does Alessa hand herself as a baby to Harry? And on an unrelated note, why the hell does Alessa take on the form of a glowing, divine-looking woman who is clearly way older than 14? Alessa doesn't really have the ego or hubris to imagine herself as a godlike being.

GrievousGarland · Post by **GrievousGarland** » 05 Jul 2009

What the creators said could still be true following what I said. Alessa + Cheryl could have taken on the appearance of what she thought god to look like.

so the way I look at it is that Alessa held God inside of her (like an incubator), and that in the good endings it is forced out. In the bad endings it engulfs her, and causes her to lash out as she does. That's why there isn't anything left to give Harry in the form of the baby.

if there wasn't that difference, why couldn't she give harry the baby in the bad endings too?

Post by **Arsonist** » 05 Jul 2009

I think they just retconed it. I think that Originally, the holy woman in white was the ideal, the holy mother of god. Not so much of Alessa as a person, but as a religious figure. And that when Kauffman threw Aglaophotis, she gave birth early. Kauffman expected her to abort, but the "pregnancy" was too far due, so she just gave birth a bit early, to a god who, while under-developed, could survive outside of her.

Still, that idea was pretty much scraped in LM. So I guess the Aglaophotis(sp?) damaged god's first skin, so it just shed it. Like a snake, or like a butterfly emerging from its cocoon. They're the same creature, just shedding their former appearance/body.

Post by **The Adversary** » 05 Jul 2009

>The full being that is capable of birthing god.
Dahlia calls the holy woman in white "god." Thus, there's no reason to assume Incubator is anything but god.

GrievousGarland · Post by **GrievousGarland** » 05 Jul 2009

Arsonist wrote:I think they just retconed it. I think that Originally, the holy woman in white was the ideal, the holy mother of god. Not so much of Alessa as a person, but as a religious figure. And that when Kauffman threw Aglaophotis, she gave birth early. Kauffman expected her to abort, but the "pregnancy" was too far due, so she just gave birth a bit early, to a god who, while under-developed, could survive outside of her.

Still, that idea was pretty much scraped in LM. So I guess the Aglaophotis(sp?) damaged god's first skin, so it just shed it. Like a snake, or like a butterfly emerging from its cocoon. They're the same creature, just shedding their former appearance/body.

But the second, retconned idea makes little sense. If they're the same thing, the god and the mother, then why wouldn't the mother give Harry the baby in the bad endings too, and for that matter, why should he receive it in the good endings anyway?

They're the same creature according to this, so when you shoot at the winged god, you're shooting at the mother too... that's exactly the same thing as the bad ending.

The way I continue to look at it is this:

Dahlia and the cult members impregnated Alessa with god. As the god grew, it fed on what Dahlia and the cult members wanted it to look like (the winged figure).

When Alessa and Cheryl come together at the end, they take the form of what god looks like to Alessa. Perhaps unintentionally.

When the red stuff is throw on Alessa, it attempts to force the God out of her and (to Kaufmann's dismay) we discover it can live on it's own already. This creature looks just like what Dahlia imagined because god fed on her desires and took that form. This leaves the mother out of the picture, only suffering damage from the god leaving her.

So once we defeat the being the mother returns to use the last of her energy to make the baby for Harry.

So, the main difference between the bad endings and good endings is that you aren't attacking the mother directly, only what was in her. In the bad endings, the god is born inside her and just uses Alessa's divine form to cause havoc. Thus, Harry begins to stupidly shoot at his own daughter and depletes her stamina. No baby for him.

EDIT:

MMY wrote:>The full being that is capable of birthing god.
Dahlia calls the holy woman in white "god." Thus, there's no reason to assume Incubator is anything but god.

Until the fetus that gives her her power is forced out of her like it is in the good endings.

If you wrap a carrot in a piece of tin foil, it's still a carrot right? Do you still call the tin foil a carrot once you take the carrot out?

Post by **The Adversary** » 05 Jul 2009

>Until the fetus that gives her her power is forced out of her like it is in the good endings.
No. Dahlia calls Alessa "the mother of god." Afterward, Alessa and "Cheryl" become one and the holy woman in white is created. Dahlia calls this entity "a Godâ€”descended among us to reach out and save us."

There is a distinct difference, and therefore: Incubator is god just as Incubus is god.

Post by **AuraTwilight** » 05 Jul 2009

What the creators said could still be true following what I said. Alessa + Cheryl could have taken on the appearance of what she thought god to look like.

Why? Alessa doesn't believe herself to BE God.

so the way I look at it is that Alessa held God inside of her (like an incubator), and that in the good endings it is forced out. In the bad endings it engulfs her, and causes her to lash out as she does. That's why there isn't anything left to give Harry in the form of the baby.

I just explained why this wouldn't work.

if there wasn't that difference, why couldn't she give harry the baby in the bad endings too?

Because Harry just shot her dead. Unlike in the good endings, Harry knows the Woman in White is bad news and isn't going to trust it, and he killed it anyway.

But the second, retconned idea makes little sense. If they're the same thing, the god and the mother, then why wouldn't the mother give Harry the baby in the bad endings too, and for that matter, why should he receive it in the good endings anyway?

They're the same creature according to this, so when you shoot at the winged god, you're shooting at the mother too... that's exactly the same thing as the bad ending.

It's simple: God shapeshifts to try and weasel out of damage. Kauffman fatally damages the Incubator, so it transforms into the Incubus to heal. Harry kills the Incubator, so it turns into the Incubus, which is still alive but dying, to form babby.

The way I continue to look at it is this:

Dahlia and the cult members impregnated Alessa with god. As the god grew, it fed on what Dahlia and the cult members wanted it to look like (the winged figure).

When Alessa and Cheryl come together at the end, they take the form of what god looks like to Alessa. Perhaps unintentionally.

When the red stuff is throw on Alessa, it attempts to force the God out of her and (to Kaufmann's dismay) we discover it can live on it's own already. This creature looks just like what Dahlia imagined because god fed on her desires and took that form. This leaves the mother out of the picture, only suffering damage from the god leaving her.

So once we defeat the being the mother returns to use the last of her energy to make the baby for Harry.

So, the main difference between the bad endings and good endings is that you aren't attacking the mother directly, only what was in her. In the bad endings, the god is born inside her and just uses Alessa's divine form to cause havoc. Thus, Harry begins to stupidly shoot at his own daughter and depletes her stamina. No baby for him.

None of this explains away any of the inconsistencies I brought up. Why does God transform into Alessa? How can Alessa hand Alessa to Harry? Why does Alessa turn into her vision of God instead of giving birth to it like in every other instance?

If you wrap a carrot in a piece of tin foil, it's still a carrot right? Do you still call the tin foil a carrot once you take the carrot out?

Tin foil is not a sentient being that is giving birth to the carrot. By your logic, my mother is merely myself, wrapped in vaginal labia and a face, not my mother pregnant with me.

GrievousGarland · Post by **GrievousGarland** » 06 Jul 2009

I'm just going to stick with what is made know to me from the endings. This different forms crap makes little sense.

The red stuff shouldn't have made Alessa change form. It has an entirely different effect on Cybil. That right there is a huge inconsistency. The stuff is made to expel evil. It doesn't cause damage, it simply pushes evil out.

Tell me, why would putting it on the mother of god make her change form? Why would Kaufmann throw it at her if he didn't expect it to abort the god?

and Alessa + Cheryl very well could have taken the form of the mother unintentionally, or while being compelled by the god inside her. She didn't have to think she was god to make herself look like one. Could have just given up and been playing along.

and when Dahlia refers to the being that came down to save them and all that, I thought it was obvious she was talking in future tense... referring to the being that was going to be birthed from the mother.