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Rosewater Park Attendant
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Missing since: 25 Mar 2009
Notes left: 1345
Last seen at: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Silent Hill does not treat the soul as equivalent to consciousness. It treats the soul as equivalent to a soul. So, what, when Alessa has half a soul, is she half-conscious? Same with Cheryl, since she also has only half of a full soul, so she must also be in a semi-whacked out state all the time. Since Cheryl and Alessa seem to be operating just fine, I don't think that the soul has any bearing on their ability to do things. Souls are spiritual entities, so they can only really affect your spiritual "aura" or whatever you want to call it.

As for Incubator dimming, she only does so as she produces the baby. That would seem to me to indicate that a part of Incubator was put in the baby. Alessa's soul, as I've been arguing.

And as for Origins, the game is never really clear on what exactly happens in the end, with the baby and all. Based on what I remember, that scene is up for interpretation as to whether Alessa "used" the Flauros or not. Alessa never openly says that she needs the Flauros, and Dahlia had said before that Flauros is a tool for binding Alessa's powers. You could just as easily argue the the light coming from the Flauros at the end are Alessa's full powers returning to her, not necessarily her using it. Introducing Origins isn't going to help, considering how vague the scene in question is, and considering how contradictory within its own plot Origins treats the Flauros. Suffice it to say, I don't interepret those events in Origins the same way you do. But I'm not going to get into a debate about Origins here.


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Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
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Last seen at: Carrollton, TX
DamienPales wrote:
As for Incubator dimming, she only does so as she produces the baby. That would seem to me to indicate that a part of Incubator was put in the baby. Alessa's soul, as I've been arguing.

Or the divine spirit that this new host will carry as a dormant seed.

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Alessa never openly says that she needs the Flauros

It can easily be inferred from the fact that she has Travis running all over town on her behalf, collecting the pieces.

Quote:
Dahlia had said before that Flauros is a tool for binding Alessa's powers.

I don't recall when she said this, could you remind me? The only thing I remember Dahlia saying about its use is that:

It is a cage for a demon. Contained, his power will focus yours. Release him, and we will all burn in the fires of hell!

She also talk about it in Silent Hill, but at that point she's just making shit up for Harry's benefit.

If Alessa needs the Flauros to focus her powers—as evidenced by her showing up whenever Travis finds a piece (even Travis figures out that she needs them)—and the Flauros glows and shoots a ray of light at Alessa's supine form, where a baby appears, it's logical to assume that the Flauros is what enabled the creation of the baby.

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You could just as easily argue the the light coming from the Flauros at the end are Alessa's full powers returning to her, not necessarily her using it.

Even if the Flauros contains some of Alessa's powers (but clearly not enough to stop her from steering Travis into helping her and manipulating the otherworld), this scene, in which Travis reconstructs the device, implies that this is the point where those powers are released. The Flauros glows, Alessa appears and inspects herself, then she conjures up the Halo of the Sun and walks through a closed door.

Honestly though, I don't think that's the case, given that Alessa has access to pretty much all of her powers as we understand them. Why would Dahlia only seal away one ability? I think that by using Travis to reconstruct the Flauros, Alessa has somehow gained ownership of the thing, for lack of a better term. It is this ownership that allows her to open the device when Travis comes near her corporeal body, and when Travis defeats the demon within, Alessa is able to use it to focus her power and do what would otherwise be impossible: create Cheryl.

Quote:
Introducing Origins isn't going to help, considering how vague the scene in question is, and considering how contradictory within its own plot Origins treats the Flauros.

I'm not sure what you mean by contradictory. If you don't feel like taking this thread off topic, perhaps you'd care to address it here?

Quote:
Suffice it to say, I don't interepret those events in Origins the same way you do. But I'm not going to get into a debate about Origins here.

It's kind of unavoidable when new information presented in Origins is available with regards to both Cheryl's creation and the function of the Flauros.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
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Missing since: 25 Mar 2009
Notes left: 1345
Last seen at: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Quote:
I don't recall when she said this, could you remind me? The only thing I remember Dahlia saying about its use is that:


Well, there's this note that Dahlia wrote. Though some of the text is obscured, it is obvious that it is the Flauros being referred to, since Dahlia references five pieces of them:

"(Parts of this note are obscured.)

Worry not. [obscured].
I have used the [obscured] to contain her power.
No one will come to her aid.
[obscured] one of the five [obscured].
Hide them. Protect them."


This note from Dahlia to Kaufmann also makes it more clear, and without all the pesky obscured words:

Kauffman,

We are almost ready, but must
hurry! I sense our hold on her
power weakening. I worry that she
draws strength from the core I
hold. I will leave it behind, hidden
in this darkness. It will be safe.
Grady is unlikely to return here,
he is still running around town
chasing after ghosts. He is
ignorant of the bigger picture
anyway.

I will wait for you here. Finish your
business and join me soon!

The time approaches, the Flauros
is shattered, thrown to the wind,
and her will is still buried deep in
a sleeping mind. This time the
ritual WILL succeed!

Dahlia


Now, this is all up for debate and everything, but from what I gathered based on what's been told, Dahlia had separated the Flauros, and by so doing, was able to contain Alessa's powers enough so that another ritual could be performed without her interference. Alessa is not physically present in Origins (not until the ending anyway, which is the only time you see her outside of a mirror) so her ability to stop the Order must be done by way of recombining the Flauros and defeating the demon to regain her psychic powers. She obviously can't do that, so she uses Travis from behind the mirrors to do so.

But like I said, there's a lot of vagueness in what is happening in that final scene. When Travis killed the demon, and the light shone from the Flauros to Alessa, I saw that as her finally regaining her stolen powers and thus capable of quickly splitting her soul and putting the baby out of harm's way. Others may see it differently. There are two memos that seem to imply the Flauros as a tool of binding power, rather than as a tool for granting extra power. The Flauros in SH1, as well, seems to bind Alessa's powers once again. Though this time it does so in a different (and contradictory, thus where I recognize the existence of a plot hole, and why I said that Origins has difficulty staying consistent with itself) way.

But yes, the other thread you linked to is where we should have this discussion, not here. If you want to respond to my post in that thread, I'd be more than happy to respond to you over there as well.


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Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
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Last seen at: Carrollton, TX
Gotcha. I did a quick search for the word "flauros" in a list of memos, so I missed the one where the word was obscured.

All the same, the point at which Travis completes the flauros would appear to be the point at which the seal on Alessa's power is broken, since the flauros releases a light and Alessa appears out of nowhere (outside the mirrors), using an obviously magical ability to walk through the closed door. In that cutscene, it looks for all the world like the flauros is being "activated." Releasing the seal on Alessa's power is the only logical explanation I can think of. Since she already has her powers back, the "activation" after Travis defeats (not kills) the demon, would logically have to be something else. Given that the flauros has the ability to amplify powers, it stands to reason that the newly re-harnessed demon is giving Alessa the boost she needs to split her soul.

Regarding the actual nature of the flauros, I've responded in the other thread and linked you to a more thorough explanation.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
Silent Hill does not treat the soul as equivalent to consciousness. It treats the soul as equivalent to a soul. So, what, when Alessa has half a soul, is she half-conscious? Same with Cheryl, since she also has only half of a full soul, so she must also be in a semi-whacked out state all the time. Since Cheryl and Alessa seem to be operating just fine, I don't think that the soul has any bearing on their ability to do things. Souls are spiritual entities, so they can only really affect your spiritual "aura" or whatever you want to call it.


You know perfectly well that I mean "consciousness" in the sense of a conscious entity. Alessa and Cheryl are a divided personality taken to a supernatural extreme. Therefore a soulless entity would be completely and totally without mentality, and thus unable to act and observe the way the Woman in White does post-reincarnation.

Quote:
As for Incubator dimming, she only does so as she produces the baby. That would seem to me to indicate that a part of Incubator was put in the baby. Alessa's soul, as I've been arguing.


Or the God's seed. Whichever, it can't be argued any further than that.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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