Question about foggy/ nightmare SH

Post by **Master_Sun** » 14 Mar 2010

Since my PS2 broke, I can't really confirm this for myself. Do you guys think that foggy Silent Hill is the same as the nightmarish version of the town? And by that, I mean do you think they share the same plain of reality? Do you think the nightmare version of Silent Hill is simply a "paint" over the foggy version of town? Or do you think they're completely separate like how the whole reality of the game is separate from the real reality where there's people?

Other points/ questions to consider:

Why does Harry sometimes have to travel through sort of a "portal" to experience the nightmarish version of the area he's in? For instance: Midwich's clocktower or Alchemilla's "fourth floor". If nightmarish delusions simply "paint over" the environment of the foggy SH, then shouldn't the environment forcefully change around Harry like when he crossed the bridge on the way to the light house?

Why does Cybil not notice these shifts? Are specific areas only affected by the nightmarish changes? Or, perhaps once again, Harry is magically chucked into another, completely different plain of reality altogether?

Do you think the areas where the Seal of Metratron is being stamped on are the one's specifically in nightmare mode? If so, why can't we see the Seal anywhere when foggy SH returns (unless the nightmare version was entirely separate)?

Post by **ashatteredmemory** » 14 Mar 2010

i think they are two completely different realities.
For example: if it were just a paint over, cybil would have surely seen it change, but she doesn't really untill the "true nightmare".
Harry crossed Alessa's place of pain (i suppose something terrible happened to her in clock tower; the 4th floor is a japanese folklore, and could be seen as a secret floor, as was her own floor; the hidden church...), and got thrown into Alessa's Nightmare.
Many rooms just plainly change (bathrooms in Midwich throw you around), so it can't be a paintover

Ofcourse, those signs. They are only seen in the nightmare versions of the town, but Alessa is actually trapped in her own nightmare (for example, she disappears at the boiler when things turn back normal), and so she drew the signs in the nightmare world...

Post by **Shadow Dragon** » 14 Mar 2010

I'll second what Shatteredmemory said. There are a few parts that only exist in the nightmare realm. For example, most of the church in Silent Hill 3.

Post by **simeonalo** » 14 Mar 2010

I believe that the Nightmare Otherworld is a 'painted-over' version of the Fog World (which is the title of my SH forum).

Post by **AuraTwilight** » 14 Mar 2010

They're two different realities, proven by the fact that Harry physically vanishes whenever a shift happens, and Cybil remains in the foggy plane, as demonstrated in the Other Church scene.

And then there's things like Alchemilla's 4th floor, which simply don't exist in any other reality whatsoever.

Post by **simeonalo** » 15 Mar 2010

To put it straight, that is called Nowhere (or at least a simpler version of the ones that we see at the end of most Silent Hill games). So if I were to classify them, it would be : Fog, Nightmare, and Nowhere.

Post by **DistantJ** » 15 Mar 2010

0rigins is a good one to look at for this - a mirror showing the opposite world to the one you're in, which, by touching the mirror, you can travel to, and things you change in fog world affect the otherworld. I believe the otherworld is like some kind of 'nightmare' reality created from what goes on in the fog world. Consider how changing the stage scenery in the theatre creates an otherworld area which becomes what the scenery was representing, or how removing the eyes from the plastic 'torso' dummy in the hospital causes the eyes from a dead body to be torn out in the otherworld...

It seems very much like nightmares to me, where things you see and do in the real world in the day or sounds etc. which happen around you while you sleep affect the dream which your mind produces.

Obviously 0rigins is by our new best friends Climax, and wasn't on the creators' minds when SH1-4 were made, but even based on those games alone I come to the same conclusion, just that 0rigins seems to have a much heavier emphasis on it due to the mirrors.

Post by **AuraTwilight** » 15 Mar 2010

To put it straight, that is called Nowhere (or at least a simpler version of the ones that we see at the end of most Silent Hill games). So if I were to classify them, it would be : Fog, Nightmare, and Nowhere.

No it's not. Only the part at the end is Nowhere.

Post by **simeonalo** » 15 Mar 2010

Then how do you explain the floor popping out of thin air? If it doesn't really exist and is manifested on it's own by the town or the person's subconscious, it's basically a nowhere

Post by **Master_Sun** » 15 Mar 2010

If they're two separate realities, then what's even the point of the foggy version? Hell, why is there a point to there even being any alternate realities for that matter? It just makes more sense if it were merely "painting over" the town or specific area.

Post by **alone in the town** » 15 Mar 2010

The 'foggy' version creates the feeling of familiarity. It provides all of the ambiguity. It makes you wonder if it's real, and something really wrecked the town and turned people into monsters. Or, is it supernatural? Or psychological?

Take out the 'foggy' world, and you lose everything that makes the [otherside] so effective.

Post by **DamienPales** » 15 Mar 2010

simeonalo wrote:Then how do you explain the floor popping out of thin air? If it doesn't really exist and is manifested on it's own by the town or the person's subconscious, it's basically a nowhere

Nowhere isn't really an actual location per se.

It's mostly symbolic/metaphorical.

Post by **Shadow Dragon** » 15 Mar 2010

Master_Sun wrote:If they're two separate realities, then what's even the point of the foggy version? Hell, why is there a point to there even being any alternate realities for that matter? It just makes more sense if it were merely "painting over" the town or specific area.

The fog world is like an intermediate world between reality and nightmare but seperate from both. It's by experiencing certain things in the fog world or being in certain places of it, that allow you to enter the nightmare realm. Think of it as a bridge that connects the real world and nightmare realm.

Post by **AuraTwilight** » 15 Mar 2010

Then how do you explain the floor popping out of thin air? If it doesn't really exist and is manifested on it's own by the town or the person's subconscious, it's basically a nowhere

You can go from that 4th floor down to the third floor and below, and thus we know exactly where the 4th floor. Therefore, it's not Nowhere. Nowhere refers specifically to the end of the game, where Alessa's world has lost it's sense of continuity and become an incomprehensible, unmappable mess.

If they're two separate realities, then what's even the point of the foggy version? Hell, why is there a point to there even being any alternate realities for that matter? It just makes more sense if it were merely "painting over" the town or specific area.

What Alone in the Town said, but if you're speaking about what Alessa's reason for creating it, that's simple.

Keep in mind that Alessa is in the Dark World, and everyone else is in the Fog World. The only person who she lets go inbetween is Harry, who is the closest thing to an ally she has, due to the Cheryl aspect. And guess who it keeps out? Dahlia. Dahlia can't get close to Alessa due to this bisected reality, which is why she needs Harry as a pawn to get the Flauros near her. Without the Foggy World, Dahlia has no reason to approach Harry.

Post by **Yuki** » 15 Mar 2010

Keep in mind that Alessa is in the Dark World, and everyone else is in the Fog World. The only person who she lets go inbetween is Harry, who is the closest thing to an ally she has, due to the Cheryl aspect. And guess who it keeps out? Dahlia. Dahlia can't get close to Alessa due to this bisected reality, which is why she needs Harry as a pawn to get the Flauros near her. Without the Foggy World, Dahlia has no reason to approach Harry.

Isn't Lisa in the Dark World too?

Post by **AuraTwilight** » 15 Mar 2010

Well, yea, and Lisa, but as a general rule, I'm holding her distinct from the rest of the cast due to her anomalous role in the scenario here (and to avoid getting into a discussion of whether she's alive or dead, real or a ghost, why she's there, yadda yadda).

Post by **Shadow Dragon** » 15 Mar 2010

Yuki wrote:
Keep in mind that Alessa is in the Dark World, and everyone else is in the Fog World. The only person who she lets go inbetween is Harry, who is the closest thing to an ally she has, due to the Cheryl aspect. And guess who it keeps out? Dahlia. Dahlia can't get close to Alessa due to this bisected reality, which is why she needs Harry as a pawn to get the Flauros near her. Without the Foggy World, Dahlia has no reason to approach Harry.
Isn't Lisa in the Dark World too?

Remember though, the real Lisa is dead. That one is just a creation of Alessa. Kinda like what Maria is in SH 2.

Post by **The Adversary** » 15 Mar 2010

No she's not.

Post by **AuraTwilight** » 15 Mar 2010

See? I fucking knew it. Thanks, Yuki.

Post by **SHF** » 15 Mar 2010

Can you explain what you mean MMY?