Search FAQ

Login | Register


All times are UTC [ DST ]


It is currently 07 Dec 2019




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message

Gravedigger
 Post subject: Incubus, Samael or Baphomet
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 566
Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
Just wondering about the final boss..

Incubus- "is a demon in male form who, according to a number of mythological and legendary traditions, lies upon sleepers, especially women, in order to have sex with them. An incubus may pursue sexual relations with a woman in order to father a child." (it matches with Alessa's impregnation, the mother of God).

The boss appearence matches with the Baphomet- a demon hermaphrodite, an imagined pagan deity; the name is associated with a "Sabbatic Goat".
http://www.google.hr/imgres?imgurl=http ... 29,r:7,s:0

Dahlia mentiones the crest Alessa mediates in her favor- the Virun VII crest, the crest of Samael, and oftenly behind it you can see a shadow- figure, appearence similiar to the final boss (the horns of a goat stand out). "Samael is then an important archangel in Talmudic and post-Talmudic lore, a figure who is accuser, seducer and destroyer, and has been regarded as both good and evil, a fallen angel, equatable with Satan and the chief of the evil spirits. One of Samael's greatest roles in Jewish lore is that of the angel of death. http://www.google.hr/imgres?imgurl=http ... CCEQ9QEwAw So.. what about that?

_________________
Image


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Incubus, Samael or Baphomet

Missing since: 12 Feb 2009
Notes left: 8022
Samael, in this game, is Dahlia's creation. There is no Samael.

And Baphomet was a deity of fertility. Who said it was a demon? Crusaders. . .


Top
   
 

SHH Cult Subscriber
SHH Cult Subscriber
 Post subject: Re: Incubus, Samael or Baphomet
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
Notes left: 4060
Last seen at: Carrollton, TX
Incubus as it appears in Silent Hill is not exactly the traditional male succubus of legend; it's a play off the name for the other version of the final boss (the woman in white). The god can take two forms, Incubator or Incubus.

It's been theorized—and I'm just summing up what I remember—that the image of God Dahlia worshiped was based off an image of the Yellow God mentioned in SH3, Lobsel Vith, who looked like Baphomet. According to this theory, Dahlia invoked Lobsel Vith during the immolation ritual that left Alessa burned and comatose. Lobsel Vith was the actual cause of Alessa's impregnation, thus making its description as "Incubus" apt.

When God appears for the final battle, it can take the appearance of whatever its summoner believes in. Alessa viewed God as a holy woman in white (she saw this image in the chapel we explore in SH3) and Dahlia worshiped the Baphomet-looking thing that may have been Lobsel Vith.

And yes, Dahlia's lying when she refers to the Virun VII Crest as the "Mark of Samael." She just wants to convince Harry that the person making that mark is an evil mofo that needs to be stopped.

Some threads that should prove informative:

Dahlia's Vision of God
Separation Paradox
Yellow God


Top
   
 

My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Incubus, Samael or Baphomet
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 08 Aug 2010
Notes left: 362
I love how serious the members of this site get when talking about the gods in Silent Hill. It's almost like talking about a real religion. It's just really amusing observing all the threads that are so in depth with Alessa and Heather and Cheryl, etc.

_________________
"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." ~ Christopher Hitchens R.I.P.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Incubus, Samael or Baphomet
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11384
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Well, real religions don't tend to argue vehemently that their deities are memetic manifestations crafted by the imagination of a little girl, but yea. XP

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Incubus, Samael or Baphomet
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 27 Aug 2010
Notes left: 2249
Last seen at: The Rabbit Hole
Uyrikeustek wrote:
I love how serious the members of this site get when talking about the gods in Silent Hill. It's almost like talking about a real religion.


Those are always my favorite talks, too. (Speaking of--are you in here anywhere Jessica?)

I've learned more about real-world ancient religions in Silent Hill forums than I have from books. In particularly, I was always fascinated by the specific materials that certain ritual artifacts had to be made from.
It's another thing that ties religion and geography together.

_________________
The above user visits this forum *very infrequently.* If you need any type of response or answer from her, she may or may not be able to provide it in a timely manner.

Thank you for understanding. <3

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21367&p=674128#p674128


Top
   
 

Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Incubus, Samael or Baphomet
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 566
Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
Me too. I've never been interested so much in culture.. I think I've learned more about philosophy, religions,deities, literature, psychology, etc.. than in school.. It amuses me how much SH is an enormous source of everything.. I mean: the Bible, Shakespeare, Kabbalah, the Crimson Tom, Alice in Wonderland.. and more..


Mephisto wrote:
Samael, in this game, is Dahlia's creation. There is no Samael.

And Baphomet was a deity of fertility. Who said it was a demon? Crusaders. . .
JuriDawn wrote:
It's been theorized—and I'm just summing up what I remember—that the image of God Dahlia worshiped was based off an image of the Yellow God mentioned in SH3, Lobsel Vith, who looked like Baphomet. According to this theory, Dahlia invoked Lobsel Vith during the immolation ritual that left Alessa burned and comatose. Lobsel Vith was the actual cause of Alessa's impregnation, thus making its description as "Incubus" apt.

When God appears for the final battle, it can take the appearance of whatever its summoner believes in. Alessa viewed God as a holy woman in white (she saw this image in the chapel we explore in SH3) and Dahlia worshiped the Baphomet-looking thing that may have been Lobsel Vith.

And yes, Dahlia's lying when she refers to the Virun VII Crest as the "Mark of Samael." She just wants to convince Harry that the person making that mark is an evil mofo that needs to be stopped.
So.. if I got right.. Samael is bullshit.. like the virun VII crest.; the final boss (Incubus) is in fact an image of Dahlia's God- influence Lobsel Vith/ Baphomet.. takes the name of Incubus 'cause it's a play-off name - 'cause the real Incubus represents fertility so it fits with Alessa's impregnation.. But that's the part I don't get quite well about this theory.. Lobsel Vith was the son of God, Xuchilbara as well, so why give birth to, let's say roughly "copies" (don't quote me on this ;) ) and not the (roughly said again) original God..?

_________________
Image


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Incubus, Samael or Baphomet
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11384
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
No, the Virun VII Crest isn't bullshit; otherwise you're right up to the part you didn't get.

The thing Alessa gives birth to IS the original God (or atleast is supposed to be), it's just a shapeshifter that takes the form based on what the summoner/mother wants. God isn't bound to one form like we mortals.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Incubus, Samael or Baphomet
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 566
Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
woops.. I ment the Seal of Metatron.. Jees..
..and I was just making a comment about what Mephisto and JuriDawn said.. that's why I quoted.
So by "shapeshifter" you are saying that it can take form even through other figures.. like Baphomet ,Lobsel Vith or what?

_________________
Image


Top
   
 

RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Incubus, Samael or Baphomet
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19401
Last seen at: #lfk
>the Crimson Tom<
I've got red on my face.

>I ment the Seal of Metatron.. Jees.. <
The Seal of Metatron is the Mark of Samael is the Virun VII Crest. They're all the same thing.

>you are saying that it can take form even through other figures.. like Baphomet ,Lobsel Vith or what?<
The Lord of Serpents and Reeds will appear however the conjurer wishes it to appear, whether in the form of a holy woman, as depicted in the Order's chapel, or Baphomet, as depicted in Dahlia's secret altar, or Alessa, as in Silent Hill 3.

_________________
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


Top
   
 

Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Incubus, Samael or Baphomet
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 566
Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
The Adversary wrote:
>the Crimson Tom<
I've got red on my face.

I was gettin' examples out of my head; forgive for making small gramatical mistakes and not being an american.

The Adversary wrote:
>I ment the Seal of Metatron.. Jees.. <

The Seal of Metatron is the Mark of Samael is the Virun VII Crest. They're all the same thing.

That's why I confused the two of them.. In SH3 the Metatron is useless.. not sure about the Virun VII crest (Aura Twilight said that it isn't bullshit).

_________________
Image


Top
   
 

Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Incubus, Samael or Baphomet
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 19 May 2009
Notes left: 1543
Last seen at: Some random piece of land enclosed by imaginary lines drawn on a map based on past conflict results.
mikefile wrote:
The Adversary wrote:
>the Crimson Tom<
I've got red on my face.

I was gettin' examples out of my head; forgive for making small gramatical mistakes and not being an american.

No need for sarcasm there.
And you don't have to be American to type in English.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 

RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Incubus, Samael or Baphomet
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19401
Last seen at: #lfk
>I was gettin' examples out of my head; forgive for making small gramatical mistakes and not being an american.<
No, no, I wasn't on your case. My name's Thomas. So, "Crimson Tom."

>In SH3 the Metatron is useless.. not sure about the Virun VII crest<
They're all the same thing, though, so if one doesn't work, none of them work.

_________________
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Incubus, Samael or Baphomet
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 29 Jun 2009
Notes left: 2301
In silent hill 3, there is a book found in the chapel library that specifically says the Seal of Metatron is also known as the virun vII crest.
Dahlia nicknames this crest " the mark as samael" just to try and convince Harry its an evil device that alessa's trying to use.
( samael is the angel/demon? of destruction, seduction, and probably other things depending on what religions define it as)

_________________
[img]http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee419/silentfog/signature.jpg[/img]


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Incubus, Samael or Baphomet
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11384
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
That's why I confused the two of them.. In SH3 the Metatron is useless.. not sure about the Virun VII crest (Aura Twilight said that it isn't bullshit).


What I meant is that, unlike "Samael", the Virun VII Crest isn't made up; it's an actual part of the Order's religion. If you want to talk about whether or not the concepts in their religion actually exist or work, you could argue that EVERYTHING they believe in is "bullshit", since it's very likely that even their god isn't real.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Incubus, Samael or Baphomet
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 566
Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
Yes, but if the Virun vii crest is an actual part of their religion, why is it bounded with the Seal of Metatron. And why would Dahlia (with serious beliefs in her religion) use a real part of the Order's religion to connenct it with something that isn't real, like Samael (regardless the need to deceive Harry). Wouldn't it be then.. like mocking her own faith?

_________________
Image


Top
   
 

Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Incubus, Samael or Baphomet

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1627
mikefile wrote:
And why would Dahlia (with serious beliefs in her religion) use a real part of the Order's religion to connenct it with something that isn't real, like Samael (regardless the need to deceive Harry). Wouldn't it be then.. like mocking her own faith?

Dahlia called it the Mark of Samael so she could trick Harry and get him to do her dirty work. She's a cunning old bag. She's not going to tell Harry it's the Virun VII crest because she would then have explain more about it. The less Harry knows, and the more he wrongly assumes, the better. She's not mocking anything, only manipulating poor gullible little Harry. That's all there is to it.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Incubus, Samael or Baphomet
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 27 Aug 2010
Notes left: 2249
Last seen at: The Rabbit Hole
^What he said.

I kinda thought something like that for a while too (because she was crazy, fucked up religious) but with her, it's about manipulation and getting what she wants. Crazy faith comes second.

_________________
The above user visits this forum *very infrequently.* If you need any type of response or answer from her, she may or may not be able to provide it in a timely manner.

Thank you for understanding. <3

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21367&p=674128#p674128


Top
   
 

RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Incubus, Samael or Baphomet
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19401
Last seen at: #lfk
>She's not going to tell Harry it's the Virun VII crest because she would then have explain more about it.<
Yet saying "the Mark of Samael" yields no explanation?

I've never understood why people think Dahlia saying Mark of Samael instead of Seal/Talisman of Metatron was because she was trying to euchre Harry into believing something different. As uncommon as either name is, it isn't likely Harry is going to comprehend one and not the other. In fact, given that both names are from Jewish mysticism, if he had heard of either, he undoubtedly would have heard of both. However, because Harry doesn't acknowledge the name in the game, we can reasonably conclude he simply doesn't know it at all, and is thus meaningless to him.

Let's go straight to the sources:
Silent Hill Official Guidebook Complete Edition wrote:
Q: What is the Mark of Samael?
A: The truth is that there is no profound significance.

Dahlia uses the phrase "the Mark of Samael" while speaking to Harry. This is a
sophism to make Harry worry that terrible things are happening that must be stopped
at any cost; it's nonsense that falls under the category of wordplay. Dahlia thought
she could use Harry to catch Alessa, so she used incomprehensible terms with feigned
sincerity.
So, yes: meaningless, not admonishing.

_________________
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Incubus, Samael or Baphomet
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11384
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Samael sort of sounds like Satan, therefore scarier. Therefore, more motive to stop it despite not knowing the fuck all.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron