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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)

Missing since: 31 Oct 2009
Notes left: 38
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
untamedbananaslug wrote:
Nobody has provided a plausible explanation as to why the Glowing Woman says 'Daddy, thank you' before dying. Nor has anyone provided a plausible explanation as to why Alessa 'transformed' when hit with the Aphaglottawadda.

That's not what I was asking. I was asking what people thought happened to Claudia's body after she swallowed the foetus and disappeared down the hole. For the moment that has nothing to do with the Woman in White's daddy issues.


Before the discussion can progress, I think the 'Daddy' issue needs to be adequately explained. It's damning evidence that the Cheryl persona is still present in the glowing woman, and the fact that so few people here have actually responded to this observation shows that it can't just be waved away. What happens to Claudia in Silent Hill 3 has no bearing on the events of SH1, and attempting to dismiss evidence from SH1 via bringing up an unrelated event in SH3 is fallacious, at best. Claudia is not Alessa, and the circumstances involving the birth of God differed between SH1 and SH3.

Edit: Tillerman has explained why. He is far too appeasing.

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1623
Tillerman wrote:
^That's a good question. The answer is in the guidebook. We know that when god is "born", it fuses with it's host and takes control. Therefore, in SH3 god fuses with Claudia's body and then takes the shape of the god in Claudia's mind. That's why there's no trace left of Claudia but her clothes... when you killed god you also killed whatever was left of Claudia. This is also similar to what happens in the bad endings of SH1... since Aglaophotis is never used, Alessa stays fused with god and you end up killing them both. That's why it's a bad ending. Makes sense, right?

Then that must mean you also believe that Claudia's body was... *copy/paste* "irrevocably destroyed" because, as you said "Claudia's body...then takes the shape of the god".

untamedbananaslug wrote:
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
untamedbananaslug wrote:
Nobody has provided a plausible explanation as to why the Glowing Woman says 'Daddy, thank you' before dying. Nor has anyone provided a plausible explanation as to why Alessa 'transformed' when hit with the Aphaglottawadda.

That's not what I was asking. I was asking what people thought happened to Claudia's body after she swallowed the foetus and disappeared down the hole. For the moment that has nothing to do with the Woman in White's daddy issues.


Before the discussion can progress, I think the 'Daddy' issue needs to be adequately explained. It's damning evidence that the Cheryl persona is still present in the glowing woman, and the fact that so few people here have actually responded to this observation shows that it can't just be waved away. What happens to Claudia in Silent Hill 3 has no bearing on the events of SH1, and attempting to dismiss evidence from SH1 via bringing up an unrelated event in SH3 is fallacious, at best. Claudia is not Alessa, and the circumstances involving the birth of God differed between SH1 and SH3.

Edit: Tillerman has explained why. He is far too appeasing.

This has already been addressed earlier in the thread. It has also been discussed in other threads. To sum it up quickly, the God was tricking Harry into thinking it was Cheryl/Alessa and therefore trustworthy, making him think it was a-ok to take the baby. So, let the circular discussion of running around in circles and reposting what we've already discussed numerous times commence. :D I'm totally not getting dizzy. (also, I may or may not be taking this discussing seriously any more, considering it's just the same thing over and over again)


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)

Missing since: 31 Oct 2009
Notes left: 38
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
This has already been addressed earlier in the thread. It has also been discussed in other threads. To sum it up quickly, the God was tricking Harry into thinking it was Cheryl/Alessa and therefore trustworthy, making him think it was a-ok to take the baby.


But she also says it in the Bad Endings, where Harry is *not* given the baby. This blows your explanation out of the water.

One must also wonder about the 'playing possum' theory. If 'God' attempted to trick Harry by transforming so that it could play possum after getting hit with the Aphaglottawhadda, one would wonder why the glowing woman (who some claim is 'God') doesn't pull the same stunt after getting hit with 50 rifle bullets. Why doesn't the Glowing woman 'transform' after getting critically injured by Harry's rifle? Why does she only do so when hit with the Aphaglottawhadda?

I'll tell you why. A transformation doesn't occur. Alessa (the 'Mother of God') is possessed by the evil entity within her, which is near rebirth. The red liquid expels the entity, which takes physical form as dictated by the summoner's (Dahlia's) portrayal of 'God'. Upon killing the dark entity, the persona of Alessa regains control of her fading body, and calls out to her father.

My explanation has both internal consistency (it is consistent with what we observe in SH1), and external consistency (it is consistent with what is stated by Harry in SH3). The 'playing possum' theory is flawed, as it lacks internal consistency.

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1623
^I don't recall mentioning anything about a "playing possum" theory, nor do I recall anyone suggesting such a thing.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)

Missing since: 31 Oct 2009
Notes left: 38
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
^I don't recall mentioning anything about a "playing possum" theory, nor do I recall anyone suggesting such a thing.


"To sum it up quickly, the God was tricking Harry into thinking it was Cheryl/Alessa and therefore trustworthy, making him think it was a-ok to take the baby."

What is the above, if not 'playing possum'? And I'm quite sure I have seen someone use that exact phrase in an earlier post on a thread which discusses this issue.

Furthermore, you're nitpicking irrelevancies, rather than actually trying to explain the inherent inconsistencies in your theory. You claimed: " The God was tricking Harry into thinking it was Cheryl/Alessa and therefore trustworthy, making him think it was a-ok to take the baby."

If this is true, explain to me why the Glowing Woman says 'Thank you, Daddy' when dying, despite the fact that she is not giving Harry the baby.

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Last edited by untamedbananaslug on 14 Mar 2011, edited 1 time in total.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
Notes left: 1446
Last seen at: Chicago
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
Then that must mean you also believe that Claudia's body was... *copy/paste* "irrevocably destroyed" because, as you said "Claudia's body...then takes the shape of the god".


Actually, yeah... you could put it that way. But let's make sure to be accurate. It's not that Claudia is being completely destroyed, body and soul. It's that her body is being fused with god, and changing shape to fit her manifestation of god. So Claudia's soul is still inside. But you could look at that as "her old body is being destroyed." It's kind of a semantics issue... the important point is that we recognize that god fuses with it's host.

Soulless-Shadow wrote:
This has already been addressed earlier in the thread. It has also been discussed in other threads. To sum it up quickly, the God was tricking Harry into thinking it was Cheryl/Alessa and therefore trustworthy, making him think it was a-ok to take the baby. So, let the circular discussion of running around in circles and reposting what we've already discussed numerous times commence. :D I'm totally not getting dizzy. (also, I may or may not be taking this discussing seriously any more, considering it's just the same thing over and over again)


Well, I disagree that it was "addressed." Rather, I think it was hand-waved away. It only makes sense to interpret that "Daddy" as a trick if it fits with other information in the game and the guidebook, but it doesn't.

But I will agree with everything else you said... honestly I'm a little tired of repeating myself as well. But it's hard not to when I feel like a lot of my points keep being ignored. In any case, I don't blame you for being sick of this discussion... and just because we disagree strongly on this issue doesn't mean there has to be hard feelings. I love Silent Hill, but it is just a game, after all. It's nothing to lose sleep over.

untamedbananaslug wrote:
But she also says it in the Bad Endings, where Harry is *not* given the baby. This blows your explanation out of the water.


You know... that's a very good point.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)

Missing since: 31 Oct 2009
Notes left: 38
Tillerman wrote:
You know... that's a very good point.


To me, it is the most damning piece of evidence of the creator's intent in Silent Hill 1. A dying, fading Alessa says "Thank you Daddy" in Cheryl's voice is a clear attempt by the creator's to convey that the persona of Alessa/Cheryl still exists in the glowing form, and that Harry f'ed up big time by killing her (which is why it is known as the 'Bad' ending).

Seriously, how much more proof do people need? I have a funny feeling that even if the glowing woman had have went into a lengthy monologue along the lines of "Yo dad, it's Cheryl here. Yeah, I'm Cheryl, not the demon. Oh, you want proof? OK, remember when I was 4 years old and went to the zoo to look at the lions? Remember when I was 6 years old and blabla" contrarians would still dismiss it off-handedly.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
Notes left: 1446
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untamedbananaslug wrote:
Seriously, how much more proof do people need? I have a funny feeling that even if the glowing woman had have went into a lengthy monologue along the lines of "Yo dad, it's Cheryl here. Yeah, I'm Cheryl, not the demon. Oh, you want proof? OK, remember when I was 4 years old and went to the zoo to look at the lions? Remember when I was 6 years old and blabla" contrarians would still dismiss it off-handedly.


Yeah, they probably would say it absorbed her memories or something. And it's not that I blame them, it's a neat theory that god was just tricking Harry... and they've also had that theory a long time around here, if I'm not mistaken someone came up with it before the guidebook was even translated. So I don't blame them for wanting to stick with it, but... as you say, if god can shapeshift at will then there's absolutely no reason why he wouldn't try to trick Harry in the bad endings too. And why would he say "thank you daddy" in Cheryl's voice as he's dying? Just to put Harry's mind at ease? I didn't think he was such a nice god.

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1623
untamedbananaslug wrote:
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
^I don't recall mentioning anything about a "playing possum" theory, nor do I recall anyone suggesting such a thing.


"To sum it up quickly, the God was tricking Harry into thinking it was Cheryl/Alessa and therefore trustworthy, making him think it was a-ok to take the baby."

What is the above, if not 'playing possum'? And I'm quite sure I have seen someone use that exact phrase in an earlier post on a thread which discusses this issue.

I think you're using the wrong phrase. "Playing possum" means pretending to be dead.

untamedbananaslug wrote:
Furthermore, you're nitpicking irrelevancies, rather than actually trying to explain the inherent inconsistencies in your theory. You claimed: " The God was tricking Harry into thinking it was Cheryl/Alessa and therefore trustworthy, making him think it was a-ok to take the baby."

If this is true, explain to me why the Glowing Woman says 'Thank you, Daddy' when dying, despite the fact that she is not giving Harry the baby.

I have no idea why Incubator uses Cheryl's voice to say "Thank you, daddy" in the Bad and Bad + ending. Perhaps it was originally a mind fuck for Harry and the player. Now, I know someone will pop up and whinge about my using Silent Hill Chronicle (the better translation of Book of Lost Memories) as an example, but it's the only anything we have for this scene. For both the Bad and Bad+ endings it states:
Silent Hill Chronicle wrote:
In Cheryl's voice, incubator tells him, "Thank you daddy..." and disappears.

The only mention of Cheryl is that Incubator uses her voice. Make of that what you will.

Tillerman wrote:
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
Then that must mean you also believe that Claudia's body was... *copy/paste* "irrevocably destroyed" because, as you said "Claudia's body...then takes the shape of the god".


Actually, yeah... you could put it that way. But let's make sure to be accurate. It's not that Claudia is being completely destroyed, body and soul. It's that her body is being fused with god, and changing shape to fit her manifestation of god. So Claudia's soul is still inside. But you could look at that as "her old body is being destroyed." It's kind of a semantics issue... the important point is that we recognize that god fuses with it's host.

AITT said the Mothers body is destroyed. No mention of soul or anything. So...you're arguing with him for nothing.

Tillerman wrote:
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
This has already been addressed earlier in the thread. It has also been discussed in other threads. To sum it up quickly, the God was tricking Harry into thinking it was Cheryl/Alessa and therefore trustworthy, making him think it was a-ok to take the baby. So, let the circular discussion of running around in circles and reposting what we've already discussed numerous times commence. :D I'm totally not getting dizzy. (also, I may or may not be taking this discussing seriously any more, considering it's just the same thing over and over again)


Well, I disagree that it was "addressed." Rather, I think it was hand-waved away. It only makes sense to interpret that "Daddy" as a trick if it fits with other information in the game and the guidebook, but it doesn't.

So many things have been "hand-waved away" by both sides.

Tillerman wrote:
But I will agree with everything else you said... honestly I'm a little tired of repeating myself as well. But it's hard not to when I feel like a lot of my points keep being ignored. In any case, I don't blame you for being sick of this discussion... and just because we disagree strongly on this issue doesn't mean there has to be hard feelings. I love Silent Hill, but it is just a game, after all. It's nothing to lose sleep over.

I don't recall disagreeing strongly. That would imply annoyance of some kind. I'm merely discussing. And everyone has done their fair share of ignoring, so no need for one to complain about that. Also, I'm just having fun now. Like I said, I'm not taking this thread very seriously any more, seeing as it's just circles. I guess you could say it's a light hearted trolling.

untamedbananaslug wrote:
Tillerman wrote:
You know... that's a very good point.


To me, it is the most damning piece of evidence of the creator's intent in Silent Hill 1. A dying, fading Alessa says "Thank you Daddy" in Cheryl's voice is a clear attempt by the creator's to convey that the persona of Alessa/Cheryl still exists in the glowing form, and that Harry f'ed up big time by killing her (which is why it is known as the 'Bad' ending).

Seriously, how much more proof do people need? I have a funny feeling that even if the glowing woman had have went into a lengthy monologue along the lines of "Yo dad, it's Cheryl here. Yeah, I'm Cheryl, not the demon. Oh, you want proof? OK, remember when I was 4 years old and went to the zoo to look at the lions? Remember when I was 6 years old and blabla" contrarians would still dismiss it off-handedly.

It absorbed her memories or something.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
Notes left: 1446
Last seen at: Chicago
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
AITT said the Mothers body is destroyed. No mention of soul or anything. So...you're arguing with him for nothing.


You might be right. I thought he meant that god was just ripping out of the mother's body as a separate entity. But if he meant metaphorically destroyed by changing shape into something else, we agree. The thing is, I keep bringing up that the guidebook states that Incubator is god fused with Alessa, and he seems to be arguing with that, but he won't directly address it except to generalize and put it in the category of "unfortunate wording." I wish he would directly address what it says in the guidebook so that I could know where he's coming from.

Soulless-Shadow wrote:
So many things have been "hand-waved away" by both sides.


It's not my style to hand-wave. I've tried to adequately answer every single question that is asked of me, and I feel that I have. If someone thinks one of my answers is not adequate, I would like them to point out why and we can go into further detail.

So you're only here to "troll"? I wonder if you think that's gonna provoke me or something...? Because actually, it's the opposite... I'm a bit relieved that you aren't angrily attacking me anymore! Hey, as long as you've lightened up, I don't care what you're doing... let's just not fight! I'm not posting here because I like arguing, I'm posting because I believe strongly that I'm right, and can back it up with facts. If we don't have to fight about it, then great! Maybe you can stop hating me now. :) (Yeah, yeah, I know... next you're gonna post "I never claimed I hate you. Stop making assumptions about me! I hate you for that!)

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)

Missing since: 31 Oct 2009
Notes left: 38
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
untamedbananaslug wrote:
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
^I don't recall mentioning anything about a "playing possum" theory, nor do I recall anyone suggesting such a thing.


"To sum it up quickly, the God was tricking Harry into thinking it was Cheryl/Alessa and therefore trustworthy, making him think it was a-ok to take the baby."

What is the above, if not 'playing possum'? And I'm quite sure I have seen someone use that exact phrase in an earlier post on a thread which discusses this issue.

I think you're using the wrong phrase. "Playing possum" means pretending to be dead.


Which is precisely what you are claiming God to being doing in the Good ending. Tricking Harry into thinking he has killed God, so that he will then rescue the Baby thinking it is Alessa.

However, whatever term I (or anyone else) uses to describe the theory is not that important. What is important is your explanation is not internally consistent.

untamedbananaslug wrote:
Furthermore, you're nitpicking irrelevancies, rather than actually trying to explain the inherent inconsistencies in your theory. You claimed: " The God was tricking Harry into thinking it was Cheryl/Alessa and therefore trustworthy, making him think it was a-ok to take the baby."

If this is true, explain to me why the Glowing Woman says 'Thank you, Daddy' when dying, despite the fact that she is not giving Harry the baby.

I have no idea why Incubator uses Cheryl's voice to say "Thank you, daddy" in the Bad and Bad + ending.
[/quote]

What? You have no idea? So you're acknowledging that there is this glaring piece of evidence that is contrary to your theory, and you're just dismissing it off hand? :shock:

Here's a thought. Perhaps the Glowing Woman says 'Thank You Daddy' in Cheryl's voice, because the Glowing Woman possesses the Alessa/Cheryl persona. I don't think that is such a stretch.

Quote:
Perhaps it was originally a mind fuck for Harry and the player.


And the 'Daddy' comment in the Good endings was not simply a mindfuck? What about the 'Daddy' comments by Cheryl on the telephone in the school, and on the television in the mall? You're just changing the rules whenever it suits you to do so that your theory appears plausible.

Silent Hill Chronicle wrote:
In Cheryl's voice, incubator tells him, "Thank you daddy..." and disappears.

The only mention of Cheryl is that Incubator uses her voice. Make of that what you will.
[/quote]

I have no idea how you get 'God is mindfucking Harry' from that. It simply states what the player observes in Silent Hill 1 (ie. the glowing woman says 'Thank you daddy' in Cheryl's voice).

Edit:

Hey, wait a minute. I just checked out your reference, and it refers to the glowing woman as 'Alessa' numerous times. It also states that the Aphaglottawhadda 'births' the demon from the woman. Why do you choose to ignore this? You're just cherry picking!

untamedbananaslug wrote:
Tillerman wrote:
You know... that's a very good point.


To me, it is the most damning piece of evidence of the creator's intent in Silent Hill 1. A dying, fading Alessa says "Thank you Daddy" in Cheryl's voice is a clear attempt by the creator's to convey that the persona of Alessa/Cheryl still exists in the glowing form, and that Harry f'ed up big time by killing her (which is why it is known as the 'Bad' ending).

Seriously, how much more proof do people need? I have a funny feeling that even if the glowing woman had have went into a lengthy monologue along the lines of "Yo dad, it's Cheryl here. Yeah, I'm Cheryl, not the demon. Oh, you want proof? OK, remember when I was 4 years old and went to the zoo to look at the lions? Remember when I was 6 years old and blabla" contrarians would still dismiss it off-handedly.

It absorbed her memories or something.[/quote]

Hang on, I thought Alessa no longer existed? And yet now you're claiming that at least part of her persona continues to exist?

Even if that was true, that still doesn't adequately explain God thanking Harry for killing it in Cheryl's voice, while calling him 'Daddy'. Nor does it explain why the ending where Alessa is killed is referred to as the 'Bad' ending.

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1623
Tillerman wrote:
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
So many things have been "hand-waved away" by both sides.


It's not my style to hand-wave. I've tried to adequately answer every single question that is asked of me, and I feel that I have. If someone thinks one of my answers is not adequate, I would like them to point out why and we can go into further detail.

Well, you have. I've pointed it out a few times.

Tillerman wrote:
So you're only here to "troll"? I wonder if you think that's gonna provoke me or something...? Because actually, it's the opposite... I'm a bit relieved that you aren't angrily attacking me anymore! Hey, as long as you've lightened up, I don't care what you're doing... let's just not fight! I'm not posting here because I like arguing, I'm posting because I believe strongly that I'm right, and can back it up with facts. If we don't have to fight about it, then great! Maybe you can stop hating me now. :) (Yeah, yeah, I know... next you're gonna post "I never claimed I hate you. Stop making assumptions about me! I hate you for that!)

I'm not here to provoke anyone. As much fun as grumpy trolls are to watch in action (and there's lots of those here. I love watching them...in a non-creepy way >_>), I just can't be bothered being a hatey-hatey troll. But you're right "I never claimed I hate you. Stop making assumptions about me. I hate you for that...." Crap... :x

untamedbananaslug wrote:
What is the above, if not 'playing possum'? And I'm quite sure I have seen someone use that exact phrase in an earlier post on a thread which discusses this issue.
Which is precisely what you are claiming God to being doing in the Good ending. Tricking Harry into thinking he has killed God, so that he will then rescue the Baby thinking it is Alessa.

God would be "playing possum" if it didn't actually die. But it did. Tricking Harry into taking the baby and then really dying isn't playing possum. That's just plain old dying. No playing or possuming or combination of the two involved. If the God didn't really die, then why create
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Heather
in an effort to be re-born at a later date?

untamedbananaslug wrote:
What? You have no idea? So you're acknowledging that there is this glaring piece of evidence that is contrary to your theory, and you're just dismissing it off hand? :shock:

I never said I dismissed anything. You must be taking notes from Tillerman with the assumptions (@ Tillerman :P ). I simply haven't had a chance to look through this, that, and everything else in an effort to be well informed enough to come up with a theory. That's kind of different to "dismissing it off hand".

untamedbananaslug wrote:

And the 'Daddy' comment in the Good endings was not simply a mindfuck? What about the 'Daddy' comments by Cheryl on the telephone in the school, and on the television in the mall? You're just changing the rules whenever it suits you to do so that your theory appears plausible.

Could be all mind fucks. That's up to you. Seeing as phone and tv Cheryl happen before God is born, I like to think that a small part of Cheryl still exists within Alessa. Well, enough to subconsciously reach out to Harry anyway. But saying those parts are a mind fuck on God's behalf doesn't make sense unless the foetus is intelligent enough and powerful enough to screw with Harry from beyond the womb (cue creepy "beyond the grave" music). Also, as Dahlia was so kind to point out, Cheryl "no longer exists" once God is born. Make of that what you will. I will be expecting you to demand an explanation from me. I won't make much of an effort to address it though, seeing as it's been discussed already. I could just copy/paste... :P

untamedbananaslug wrote:
Hey, wait a minute. I just checked out your reference, and it refers to the glowing woman as 'Alessa' numerous times. It also states that the Aphaglottawhadda 'births' the demon from the woman. Why do you choose to ignore this? You're just cherry picking!

Book of Lost Memories does indeed mention Alessa a few times. But you've just come into this thread after a whole discussion about all the inconsistencies that appear in not only the translations of Book of Lost Memories, but the actual original text itself. Let's not get back into that though. You could just read back through the thread, or I could just copy/paste.

untamedbananaslug wrote:
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
It absorbed her memories or something.


Hang on, I thought Alessa no longer existed? And yet now you're claiming that at least part of her persona continues to exist?

Wow, that comment went waaaaaaay over your head, didn't it? It's not funny when people have to explain a joke...but oh well... :cry: Tillerman said, in response to the quote I posted that under:
Tillerman wrote:
Yeah, they probably would say it absorbed her memories or something.

Bold added by me for emphasis. Basically, I decided to joke around and copy/paste his comment. Really, not very funny when one has to explain a joke. :( Oh well. At least I found it amusing, even if no-one else figured it out. :cry:


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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
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Soulless-Shadow wrote:
Bold added by me for emphasis. Basically, I decided to joke around and copy/paste his comment. Really, not very funny when one has to explain a joke. :( Oh well. At least I found it amusing, even if no-one else figured it out. :cry:


I did get that, and I found it amusing too. :)

Soulless-Shadow wrote:
I'm not here to provoke anyone. As much fun as grumpy trolls are to watch in action (and there's lots of those here. I love watching them...in a non-creepy way >_>), I just can't be bothered being a hatey-hatey troll. But you're right "I never claimed I hate you. Stop making assumptions about me. I hate you for that...." Crap...


Yeah, but saying that you're just "trolling" a thread, you must realize that would make most people mad. Though I am not most people. Anyway, did you like my joke? See, I'm not that grumpy!

Soulless-Shadow wrote:
Well, you have. I've pointed it out a few times.


Yet you haven't bothered to explain any details. You may as well just be name-calling. I would appreciate it if you would not do that.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)

Missing since: 31 Oct 2009
Notes left: 38
soulless_shadow wrote:
God would be "playing possum" if it didn't actually die. But it did.


You're confused here.

According to the 'transformation' theory, Harry thinks that 'God' is the demonic entity whom the glowing woman transforms into. He shot it with his hunting rifle until it disappeared. For all intents and purposes, Harry *thinks* he has killed God then and there, and that the Glowing Woman is Alessa. However, according to the 'transformation' theory, that Glowing Woman is just a dying God transformed back into the Glowing woman.

So yes, God is indeed *playing possum* by feigning death.

soulless_shadow wrote:

Tricking Harry into taking the baby and then really dying isn't playing possum.


According to the transformation theory, God feigned death when its demonic form fell to the ground and disappeared/transformed back into the Glowing Woman.

soulless_shadow wrote:
If the God didn't really die, then why create
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Heather
in an effort to be re-born at a later date?


I'm not claiming that God didn't die, nor am I claiming that that is what you are asserting. What I am pointing out is that your interpretation of events could be described as God 'playing possum'. Pretending to die one minute before you actually die is still playing possum.

But again, what I call it isn't *that* important, it's semantics and of no real consequence. What *is* important is that your overarching theory conflicts with in-game occurrences, occurrences in SH3, and the SH1 guide book.

soulless_shadow wrote:
I never said I dismissed anything. You must be taking notes from Tillerman with the assumptions (@ Tillerman :P ). I simply haven't had a chance to look through this, that, and everything else in an effort to be well informed enough to come up with a theory. That's kind of different to "dismissing it off hand".


But you already have come up with a theory, and when challenged by its internal inconsistencies, just shrug your shoulders and go "Pfft, I dunno". As you said yourself, this discussion has been going on for upteen pages. Surely you would have come up with a reason by now? Perhaps you need to consider your interpretation of the events of Silent Hill 1, given that all available evidence overwhelmingly suggests that the Glowing Woman = Alessa.

untamedbananaslug wrote:

And the 'Daddy' comment in the Good endings was not simply a mindfuck? What about the 'Daddy' comments by Cheryl on the telephone in the school, and on the television in the mall? You're just changing the rules whenever it suits you to do so that your theory appears plausible.

Could be all mind fucks. That's up to you. Seeing as phone and tv Cheryl happen before God is born, I like to think that a small part of Cheryl still exists within Alessa. Well, enough to subconsciously reach out to Harry anyway.
[/quote]

That's rather obvious, given that in the mall, the image of Alessa is next to that of Cheryl. Gee, could the creators be trying to tell us something about the nature of Alessa and Cheryl? Likewise, when we hear Cheryl's voice endgame, it's reasonable to assume that the creators are giving a big hint regarding the nature of the glowing woman.

soulless_shadow" wrote:
Book of Lost Memories does indeed mention Alessa a few times. But you've just come into this thread after a whole discussion about all the inconsistencies that appear in not only the translations of Book of Lost Memories, but the actual original text itself. Let's not get back into that though. You could just read back through the thread, or I could just copy/paste.


So you used an ambiguous statement from a book which you admit is riddled with inconsistencies to support your argument? Are you that desperate to support your axiom that Glowing Woman = God and only God.

Just from a cursory reading of the Endings, I can say that nothing in their contradicts the 'Glowing Woman = Alessa' theory, while there is a shitload of information in there which contradicts the 'Glowing Woman does not = Alessa' theory.

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1623
Tillerman wrote:
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
Bold added by me for emphasis. Basically, I decided to joke around and copy/paste his comment. Really, not very funny when one has to explain a joke. :( Oh well. At least I found it amusing, even if no-one else figured it out. :cry:


I did get that, and I found it amusing too. :)

Well, at least the joke wasn't lost one everyone. :)

Tillerman wrote:
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
I'm not here to provoke anyone. As much fun as grumpy trolls are to watch in action (and there's lots of those here. I love watching them...in a non-creepy way >_>), I just can't be bothered being a hatey-hatey troll. But you're right "I never claimed I hate you. Stop making assumptions about me. I hate you for that...." Crap...


Yeah, but saying that you're just "trolling" a thread, you must realize that would make most people mad. Though I am not most people. Anyway, did you like my joke? See, I'm not that grumpy!

"Troll" probably isn't the right word, but what other alternative is there? I'm simply partaking in an amusing discussion while also doing something that may or may not get a reaction out of someone. It's up to the individual whether or not they get grumpy.

Tillerman wrote:
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
Well, you have. I've pointed it out a few times.


Yet you haven't bothered to explain any details. You may as well just be name-calling. I would appreciate it if you would not do that.

I have in other posts and one PM. I don't remember the specifics though. But who cares. Let's not go back into that circle of conversation. There are plenty of other circular discussions in this thread to get dizzy in. Much more entertaining too.

untamedbananaslug wrote:
soulless_shadow wrote:
God would be "playing possum" if it didn't actually die. But it did.


You're confused here.

According to the 'transformation' theory, Harry thinks that 'God' is the demonic entity whom the glowing woman transforms into. He shot it with his hunting rifle until it disappeared. For all intents and purposes, Harry *thinks* he has killed God then and there, and that the Glowing Woman is Alessa. However, according to the 'transformation' theory, that Glowing Woman is just a dying God transformed back into the Glowing woman.

So yes, God is indeed *playing possum* by feigning death.

I am not confused. I simply don't interpret "playing possum" as you do.

untamedbananaslug wrote:
But again, what I call it isn't *that* important, it's semantics and of no real consequence. What *is* important is that your overarching theory conflicts with in-game occurrences, occurrences in SH3, and the SH1 guide book.

Indeed this is all semantics. It's like arguing over the use of "reincarnation" in the translated versions of Book of Lost Memories. But, how exactly does the theory that it's God handing the baby to Harry conflict with SH3? Unless you're referring to the conversation between Heather and Douglas about the Woman giving Harry a baby, then there's no conflict in there. Heather is simply repeating what she read in Harry's diary, and let's face it, Harry didn't know what was going on. If he did, then he wouldn't have been so easily used by Dahlia. Let's face it, any moron (sorry Harry :( ) could tell she wasn't trustworthy.

untamedbananaslug wrote:
But you already have come up with a theory, and when challenged by its internal inconsistencies, just shrug your shoulders and go "Pfft, I dunno". As you said yourself, this discussion has been going on for upteen pages. Surely you would have come up with a reason by now? Perhaps you need to consider your interpretation of the events of Silent Hill 1, given that all available evidence overwhelmingly suggests that the Glowing Woman = Alessa.

I haven't had a chance to come up with a theory because I am constantly repeating something that has already been discussed. More circles.

untamedbananaslug wrote:

Gee, could the creators be trying to tell us something about the nature of Alessa and Cheryl?

Sarcasm is the lowest form of humour, and very unbecoming.

untamedbananaslug wrote:
So you used an ambiguous statement from a book which you admit is riddled with inconsistencies to support your argument? Are you that desperate to support your axiom that Glowing Woman = God and only God.

I'm not desperate. I simply don't care. However, I knew someone would get their knickers in a twist about that. Good one. ;)

untamedbananaslug wrote:
Just from a cursory reading of the Endings, I can say that nothing in their contradicts the 'Glowing Woman = Alessa' theory, while there is a shitload of information in there which contradicts the 'Glowing Woman does not = Alessa' theory.

Which are you reading? The original in Japanese? The Translated Memories? Or Silent Hill Chronicle? Not that it really matters. It's already been discussed that Book of Lost Memories has a lot of inconsistencies. Book of Lost Memories claims Mrs. Mason died a few years before Cheryl was found/born. But Heather has memories of her. That and we see her with Harry in the opening scene of SH1. Unless of course Harry just likes dressing random hookers up in his dead wife's clothes and going for a stroll on the side of the road. Hmm, that could potentially be a very interesting SH game. Or very boring.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)

Missing since: 31 Oct 2009
Notes left: 38
soulless wrote:
I am not confused. I simply don't interpret "playing possum" as you do.


OK, I don't care. As I said, it's not important anyway.

soulless wrote:
Indeed this is all semantics.


I disagree.

soulless wrote:
Heather is simply repeating what she read in Harry's diary,


How do you know this?

soulless wrote:
and let's face it, Harry didn't know what was going on.


Patently false. Indeed, he is the most credible witness in Silent Hill 1. He experiences both snowy Silent Hill, and the Otherworld. He encounters Alessa in the flesh, hears exposition from Dahlia, fights God, and (pay attention, folks) sees God disappear upon death, and Alessa reappear. Yeah, sure, when Harry hops out of his jeep who knows jack-shit. However, as he progresses through the game, Harry gains a more well-rounded appreciation of what the hell happened during the events of Silent Hill than any other character, and for everything he says to be dismissed as 'not credible' is laughable, and amounts to hand waving.

soulless wrote:
If he did, then he wouldn't have been so easily used by Dahlia. Let's face it, any moron (sorry Harry :( ) could tell she wasn't trustworthy.


Since when is Harry shown to 'trust' Dahlia? He goes along with what she says because he has no other leads. What else can he do, sit on his hands? It is blatantly obvious that he doesn't trust her, and regards her as a 'crazy old woman'.

soulless wrote:
I haven't had a chance to come up with a theory


It is clear that you already subscribe to a particular view. I suspect that you won't state it outright, since that would open you up to criticism.

soulless wrote:
Which are you reading?


I don't care. I'm not the one relying on it to discredit those with opposing theories. I rely on in-game material, which provides overwhelming support for my stance. I only mentioned it because you had appealed to it in a previous post. Apparently the guide is credible when it has material which supports your viewpoint, but not credible when it has material which debunks your viewpoint. Fancy that. I suspect if Harry had stated flat out that he saw the Glowing woman transform into a demon, you would have trumpeted him as an infallible eye-witness as well.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
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Soulless-Shadow wrote:
But, how exactly does the theory that it's God handing the baby to Harry conflict with SH3? Unless you're referring to the conversation between Heather and Douglas about the Woman giving Harry a baby, then there's no conflict in there. Heather is simply repeating what she read in Harry's diary, and let's face it, Harry didn't know what was going on.


You're stating something as fact that you shouldn't be. It is not fact that "Heather is simply repeating what she read in Harry's diary..." that's the interpretation that some people use to explain away this contradiction with the god theory. However, is that really a good interpretation? Heather starts this conversation by saying "I'm trying to remember," and that she has a headache. We know she has all of Alessa's memories inside her, so it sounds like she's trying to recall those memories... and Harry's diary is there because that's what helped jog her memory. And I don't believe she's reading from the diary, I believe it's closed, and she doesn't sound like she is reading. Did she really just memorize what the diary said so she could recite it now? No, I think the correct interpretation of this scene is that Heather is recalling her memories as Alessa. Which would make them all undisputable fact.

And by the way, if the original writers really did intend for god to be giving Harry the baby, why would they contradict that in this scene? SH3 is supposed to be a game that clears up mysteries in SH1. So why would they purposefully obsfucate?

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1623
untamedbananaslug wrote:
soulless wrote:
I am not confused. I simply don't interpret "playing possum" as you do.


OK, I don't care. As I said, it's not important anyway.

Then why were you arguing over it?

untamedbananaslug wrote:
soulless wrote:
Indeed this is all semantics.


I disagree.

And yet you said it was semantics yourself. Are you disagreeing with yourself? You also just said that you don't care, and that's it's not important.

untamedbananaslug wrote:
soulless wrote:
Heather is simply repeating what she read in Harry's diary,


How do you know this?

I thought I already addressed this. *hand-wave*

untamedbananaslug wrote:
soulless wrote:
and let's face it, Harry didn't know what was going on.


Patently false. Indeed, he is the most credible witness in Silent Hill 1. He experiences both snowy Silent Hill, and the Otherworld. He encounters Alessa in the flesh, hears exposition from Dahlia, fights God, and (pay attention, folks) sees God disappear upon death, and Alessa reappear. Yeah, sure, when Harry hops out of his jeep who knows jack-shit. However, as he progresses through the game, Harry gains a more well-rounded appreciation of what the hell happened during the events of Silent Hill than any other character, and for everything he says to be dismissed as 'not credible' is laughable, and amounts to hand waving.

Experiencing something and understanding it are two different things.

untamedbananaslug wrote:
soulless wrote:
If he did, then he wouldn't have been so easily used by Dahlia. Let's face it, any moron (sorry Harry :( ) could tell she wasn't trustworthy.


Since when is Harry shown to 'trust' Dahlia? He goes along with what she says because he has no other leads. What else can he do, sit on his hands? It is blatantly obvious that he doesn't trust her, and regards her as a 'crazy old woman'.

Perhaps "trust" was too strong a word. He didn't distrust her enough to not collect the flauros pieces and follow orders like a good little pawn though. He may have thought she was a crazy old woman, but he didn't suspect that she may have been up to something. It was obvious to the player (well, me at least) that there was something distrustful about her.

untamedbananaslug wrote:
soulless wrote:
I haven't had a chance to come up with a theory


It is clear that you already subscribe to a particular view. I suspect that you won't state it outright, since that would open you up to criticism.

Not at all. Theories require criticism in order to weed out the good from the bad. Good criticism is wasted on an ill thought out theory.

untamedbananaslug wrote:
soulless wrote:
Which are you reading?


I don't care. I'm not the one relying on it to discredit those with opposing theories. I rely on in-game material, which provides overwhelming support for my stance. I only mentioned it because you had appealed to it in a previous post. Apparently the guide is credible when it has material which supports your viewpoint, but not credible when it has material which debunks your viewpoint.

I don't care for the Book of Lost Memories any more due to the mentioned inconsitencies. I was using it to see if anyone would get their knickers in a twist. You clearly did. Besides, there are inconsistencies in Book of Lost Memories for both sides of the debate. I'm sure you'll ask to me list them, to which I will reply to read through the thread.

untamedbananaslug wrote:
I suspect if Harry had stated flat out that he saw the Glowing woman transform into a demon, you would have trumpeted him as an infallible eye-witness as well.

If Harry had said the Woman in White transformed into a demon we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Tillerman wrote:
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
But, how exactly does the theory that it's God handing the baby to Harry conflict with SH3? Unless you're referring to the conversation between Heather and Douglas about the Woman giving Harry a baby, then there's no conflict in there. Heather is simply repeating what she read in Harry's diary, and let's face it, Harry didn't know what was going on.


You're stating something as fact that you shouldn't be. It is not fact that "Heather is simply repeating what she read in Harry's diary..." that's the interpretation that some people use to explain away this contradiction with the god theory. However, is that really a good interpretation? Heather starts this conversation by saying "I'm trying to remember," and that she has a headache. We know she has all of Alessa's memories inside her, so it sounds like she's trying to recall those memories... and Harry's diary is there because that's what helped jog her memory. And I don't believe she's reading from the diary, I believe it's closed, and she doesn't sound like she is reading. Did she really just memorize what the diary said so she could recite it now? No, I think the correct interpretation of this scene is that Heather is recalling her memories as Alessa. Which would make them all undisputable fact.

And by the way, if the original writers really did intend for god to be giving Harry the baby, why would they contradict that in this scene? SH3 is supposed to be a game that clears up mysteries in SH1. So why would they purposefully obsfucate?

She said she was "trying" to remember. Trying is the key word. Not only that, but she talks about growing up in Silent Hill in first person ("I was born and raised there"), but then switches to third person ("After the god died, the girl reappeared. She was holding a baby in her arms. Before she died, she gave the baby to my father"). Then she switches back to first person ("He loved me just like I was his very own daughter"). Of course it's up to personal interpretation, but if she remembered everything, then why switch from first person to third person if these were all things she was remembering?


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)

Missing since: 31 Oct 2009
Notes left: 38
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
Then why were you arguing over it?


It is in my nature to correct factual inaccuracies when discussing an issue. However, it's clear that we aren't going to agree on this 'playing possum' hoo haa. And since it is a triviality, I see no need to pursue it further. You are welcome to educate yourself on the topic if you wish, and then report back explaining why you were in error.

Soulless-Shadow wrote:
And yet you said it was semantics yourself.


I said that the 'playing possum' issue is semantics. I certainly don't agree that all discussion regarding the God is/isn't Alessa is semantical. Although with the way transformation advocates argue, I could swear that they are attempting to redefine the entire English Language.

Soulless-Shadow wrote:
I thought I already addressed this. *hand-wave*


Where? URL? Quotation?

Soulless-Shadow wrote:
Experiencing something and understanding it are two different things.


True. But as Harry continues to experience Silent Hill, he proves himself to be quite perceptive. Furthermore, no understanding was required in regards to the 'demon disappeared, God reappeared' incident. All that is required was observation. Even if Harry were as thick as a brick, his powers of inference have no real bearing on what his eyes saw. Unless you now want to claim that Harry was visually impaired. No doubt he had impaired hearing as well, which is why he heard Cheryl's voice say Daddy, rather than Mephisto scream "I'm gonna anally rape you!"

Again, explain why you presumptively disregard Harry's eyewitness testimony that the demon disappeared, and the glowing woman reappeared. Explain why his observation is invalid, when he was standing mere feet away, and his observation corroborates that of the player's.

Soulless-Shadow wrote:
Perhaps "trust" was too strong a word. He didn't distrust her enough to not collect the flauros pieces and follow orders like a good little pawn though.


So you admit that Harry didn't trust Dahlia. Thanks. So he isn't a moron, as you previously implied, which restores credibility to his character that you attempted to detract from. Not that that would matter, because even if he was still as thick as a brick, his observations would remain reliable.

Soulless-Shadow wrote:
He may have thought she was a crazy old woman, but he didn't suspect that she may have been up to something.


You can read Harry's mind now?

Quote:
It was obvious to the player (well, me at least) that there was something distrustful about her.


And Harry called her a crazy old lady, implying that he didn't put much faith in what she was saying. But as I re-iterated earlier, Harry had nothing else to go on. A lead is a lead, even if it comes from a crazy bint.

Soulless-Shadow wrote:
I don't care for the Book of Lost Memories any more due to the mentioned inconsitencies. I was using it to see if anyone would get their knickers in a twist. You clearly did.


Indeed. I resent the cherry picking that has been exhibited by the transformation advocates on this thread. It reeks of intellectual dishonesty. "X is a valid source, except when it contradicts me" shows that the individual is arguing in bad faith. And why should I dignify someone who is arguing in bad faith with a response?

Soulless-Shadow wrote:
If Harry had said the Woman in White transformed into a demon we wouldn't be having this discussion.


Indeed. Isn't it fortunate that we, the player, have the benefit of seeing the demon emerge from the Glowing Woman's back, strongly implying that they are separate entities? And isn't it even more fortunate that we have a corroborating eye-witness account (ie. Harry) verifying that the glowing woman and the demon were separate entities?

Gee, I'm starting to wonder why this discussion has lasted for so long.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
Notes left: 1446
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Soulless-Shadow wrote:
She said she was "trying" to remember. Trying is the key word. Not only that, but she talks about growing up in Silent Hill in first person ("I was born and raised there"), but then switches to third person ("After the god died, the girl reappeared. She was holding a baby in her arms. Before she died, she gave the baby to my father"). Then she switches back to first person ("He loved me just like I was his very own daughter"). Of course it's up to personal interpretation, but if she remembered everything, then why switch from first person to third person if these were all things she was remembering?


That's not a bad point, about switching from first to 3rd person. I hadn't noticed that. But I don't know if we should be reading any significance into that... it might just be that the writer (or translator) decided it would sound weird for her to say those particular details in 1st person.

On the other hand, the fact that she uses 1st person at all does pretty strongly imply that she remembers those events, does it not? So when she says she is "trying" to remember, I think the implication is that her memories are still foggy, but some details are coming back to her. I think it's a logical assumption that what she says to Douglas are the details she remembers.

Of course, your interpretation that she is getting those details from Harry's journal could be correct, but it's very debatable.

A better question is, why would the creators choose to do this scene this way? They at least implied that Heather is remembering some of Alessa's memories... which means they easily could have just had her remember and state the truth, whatever it is. If the writers intention with SH1 was that god was tricking Harry, it's extremely odd for them to turn around and contradict that with this scene in SH3, especially when there's no need to. They could've just had Heather comment something like "it's odd, I don't remember anything about giving a baby to Harry. Strange. Was it really Alessa?" The fact that they decide to have Heather directly contradict that theory in this scene is EXTREMELY strong evidence to me that the "god theory" was never their intention... it's probably something that never even occured to them.

untamedbananaslug wrote:
Indeed. I resent the cherry picking that has been exhibited by the transformation advocates on this thread. It reeks of intellectual dishonesty. "X is a valid source, except when it contradicts me" shows that the individual is arguing in bad faith.


This bothers me too. In the beginning of this thread, certain members were hammering that "image of god" page down our throats, claiming that it proved their theory, and anyone who doesn't agree is "thick." But when I bring up some information from the same book that contradicts the god theory, suddenly that book is "full of contradictions" and not trustworthy. That's truly cherry picking. It kind of reminds me of Reverend Lovejoy... "the Bible says a lot of things."

If people want to dismiss the guidebook, fine. Dismiss all of it. If they want to accept it (as I do) then accept all of it. But cherry picking details that fits your theory is just no good.

Personally, I accept everything in the guidebook. As far as I can see, there are no contradictions to the theory that Alessa gave the baby to Harry. In fact, I'm only aware of 2 minor contradictions in the whole book (that they aren't sure which ending is canon and that they get the date of Mrs. Mason's death wrong.) I can overlook that.

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Last edited by Tillerman on 14 Mar 2011, edited 1 time in total.

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