Confusion about the god (spoilers)

[The Adversary]

>No they didn't.<
Actually, yes, one of them did. I can watch what happens and that's the only thing that does happen.

>What makes you so sure that woman in white is exactly the same as the other one?<
If you're seriously going to start arguing that, then there's no point in attempting to discuss with you at all.

But, to prove my point:

A holy woman in white appears amid a brilliant light. "It's awakening! It's awake! Now no one can interfere!"

Harry yells. "Cheryl!"

"Give up! That person no longer exists. This is a God! Descended among us to reach out and save us!"

>Or am I wrong?<
You're wrong. On many accounts now.

[Tillerman]

>What makes you so sure that woman in white is exactly the same as the other one?<
If you're seriously going to start arguing that, then there's no point in attempting to discuss with you at all.

You misunderstand me. I'm not "seriously" arguing that, I'm simply stating it's a possibility, and it IS. The important point here is that nothing is set in stone except for what the game's writers say. Even if they say the woman in white is an aspect of God, they do not say that she *always* represents god in the game, nor that Alessa/Cheryl can't be represented by that image as well. It's a logical inference to come to those conclusions, but hardly set in stone. So there is room for alternative opinions. That's what I meant originally when I said that magazine article is not as clear cut as some people are saying.

But, to prove my point: A holy woman in white appears amid a brilliant light. "It's awakening! It's awake! Now no one can interfere!"

Harry yells. "Cheryl!"

"Give up! That person no longer exists. This is a God! Descended among us to reach out and save us!"

Okay, how does that full quote give any added insight? Dahlia could still mean either Cheryl's soul no longer exists or just her body. It's not clear.

Also, that quote "that person no longer exists" is a pretty common trope in a lot of stories, and a lot of times is an exaggeration of the truth. So it's reasonable to think that Dahlia is exaggerating the truth with that quote. Either that or she is specifically referring to Cheryl's body... or maybe she's just condensing the truth and not being entirely accurate.

In any case, that quote is not evidence of anything in particular, since it's obvious that Cheryl's old body is gone and no one is disputing that.

You're wrong. On many accounts now.

Alright... looking forward to when you mention a point I'm wrong about. By the way, I feel like your interpretation of several things has been off as well, one of which I've explained above.

[SilentWren]

Ok, this was a lot of tl:dr (no offense) but I think I understand what the miscommunication is;

We've all played Silent Hill 3 and realize what the woman in white is, right? The people arguing are trying to say that what we know from 3 may not have been the original intent during the planning of the FIRST game.
There. Did that clear things up?

[Tillerman]

We've all played Silent Hill 3 and realize what the woman in white is, right? The people arguing are trying to say that what we know from 3 may not have been the original intent during the planning of the FIRST game.
There. Did that clear things up?

Yeah, that's my main point, although I think that the game's writers have been vague enough that there is room for different interpretations even in light of SH3. Perhaps only a tiny bit of room, but it still matters. The point being that nothing is "canon" unless it is specifically stated by the game's writers, if it requires any interpretation then it's wrong to call it "canon." If they don't specifically say "the lady in white in that particular scene is god tricking Harry" (or something along the lines of that sentence) then such a thing is not canon, it is merely a good theory.

[Soulless-Shadow]

We've all played Silent Hill 3 and realize what the woman in white is, right? The people arguing are trying to say that what we know from 3 may not have been the original intent during the planning of the FIRST game.
There. Did that clear things up?

Yeah, that's my main point, although I think that the game's writers have been vague enough that there is room for different interpretations even in light of SH3. Perhaps only a tiny bit of room, but it still matters. The point being that nothing is "canon" unless it is specifically stated by the game's writers, if it requires any interpretation then it's wrong to call it "canon." If they don't specifically say "the lady in white in that particular scene is god tricking Harry" (or something along the lines of that sentence) then such a thing is not canon, it is merely a good theory.

And yet it's been proven that the Woman in White is God. The creators shouldn't need to say that every instance of the Woman in White is God if they have already stated once that the Woman in White is God. If they've stated it once, then she is God. If any other instance of her were someone else (Alessa/Cheryl/Kaufmann in drag), then they would need to say so.

[SHF]

^
Even Dahlia says that the Woman in White is god. Why would Dahlia lie about that? She wouldn't. So I take it as a fact.

[Tillerman]

And yet it's been proven that the Woman in White is God.

Actually I'm not sure about that. Let's read that article that Alone in the Town posted again. It says: "A manifestation of the mental image of the god that Alessa herself had." It doesn't specifically say "this is god," it says it is a manifestation of Alessa's mental image, which is very vague. Of course, the header of this article implies that this is a "form of god," but also somewhat vague, certainly not the same as saying "this is god," and also doesn't rule out that Alessa or Cheryl are a part of this form.

To use a different example, the "holy spirit" is a form of the christian god, but at the same time is not god.

The creators shouldn't need to say that every instance of the Woman in White is God if they have already stated once that the Woman in White is God.

Actually I think they should, when you consider how different the woman in white acts in it's different appearances. Trying to kill you and protecting you/handing you a baby almost makes it seem like 2 different entities. Or at least it seems like there's some kind of difference. Of course, her actions make sense if you think of her as god's last ditch effort to save itself by tricking you into taking the baby, but it also makes sense as Cheryl's attempt to be reborn (which is how it comes across.) Anyway, at the very least there's room for an alternative theory here.

Even Dahlia says that the Woman in White is god. Why would Dahlia lie about that? She wouldn't. So I take it as a fact.

I certainly agree that the woman in white is a "form of god," and *is* god in at least the scene in which you are killing it.

[SHF]

^
Actually, the Incubus is the form of god to dahlia, right? The woman in white is alessa's vision of god.
Does dahlia say the same thing for both forms of god?

[Wigeke]

Actually I'm not sure about that. Let's read that article that Alone in the Town posted again. It says: "A manifestation of the mental image of the god that Alessa herself had." It doesn't specifically say "this is god," it says it is a manifestation of Alessa's mental image, which is very vague. Of course, the header of this article implies that this is a "form of god," but also somewhat vague, certainly not the same as saying "this is god," and also doesn't rule out that Alessa or Cheryl are a part of this form..

It is vague because there's the possibility of god being nothing more than a manifestation of the cult's faith. There may be no god, just a construct based on the cult's beliefs.

[SHF]

^
That's what god is.

[Tillerman]

It is vague because there's the possibility of god being nothing more than a manifestation of the cult's faith. There may be no god, just a construct based on the cult's beliefs.

Well yeah, that too. Which is a whole other can of worms, but I wouldn't rule it out. Like I said, I think there's room for multiple interpretations.

[Soulless-Shadow]

And yet it's been proven that the Woman in White is God.

Actually I'm not sure about that. Let's read that article that Alone in the Town posted again. It says: "A manifestation of the mental image of the god that Alessa herself had." It doesn't specifically say "this is god," it says it is a manifestation of Alessa's mental image, which is very vague. Of course, the header of this article implies that this is a "form of god," but also somewhat vague, certainly not the same as saying "this is god," and also doesn't rule out that Alessa or Cheryl are a part of this form.

Maybe, just maybe, it's possible for God to take the image of however summons it. Oh, hey, that's exactly what happens. So, the Woman in White is a form it takes, and thus is the God. However, just like Wigeke said, there's a good chance that the God is nothing more than a really powerful manifestation created by the cult's fanaticism and the powers of the area. People (including myself) only call it "God" for simplicities sake.

To use a different example, the "holy spirit" is a form of the christian god, but at the same time is not god.

Now, I admit I'm not much of a theologist (is that a real thing?), and I'm not even Catholic, but I know that in the Bible the Holy Spirit is indeed God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all Him. Google it. *edit* Hey, you don't have to google it. It's all right here.

The creators shouldn't need to say that every instance of the Woman in White is God if they have already stated once that the Woman in White is God.

Actually I think they should, when you consider how different the woman in white acts in it's different appearances. Trying to kill you and protecting you/handing you a baby almost makes it seem like 2 different entities. Or at least it seems like there's some kind of difference. Of course, her actions make sense if you think of her as god's last ditch effort to save itself by tricking you into taking the baby, but it also makes sense as Cheryl's attempt to be reborn (which is how it comes across.) Anyway, at the very least there's room for an alternative theory here.

You're just arguing for the sake of arguing, aren't you?

Even Dahlia says that the Woman in White is god. Why would Dahlia lie about that? She wouldn't. So I take it as a fact.

I certainly agree that the woman in white is a "form of god," and *is* god in at least the scene in which you are killing it.

Form of God = God in whatever form it wishes to present itself in = God. The Woman in White is always God, regardless of her actions.

[Tillerman]

Maybe, just maybe, it's possible for God to take the image of however summons it. Oh, hey, that's exactly what happens. So, the Woman in White is a form it takes, and thus is the God. However, just like Wigeke said, there's a good chance that the God is nothing more than a really powerful manifestation created by the cult's fanaticism and the powers of the area. People (including myself) only call it "God" for simplicities sake.

Right. So there's wiggle room to believe that the form of god you see handing Harry the baby is a form summoned by Cheryl's spirit.

Now, I admit I'm not much of a theologist (is that a real thing?), and I'm not even Catholic, but I know that in the Bible the Holy Spirit is indeed God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all Him. Google it. *edit* Hey, you don't have to google it. It's all right here.

It's really confusing. They're all the same god, yet also seperate somehow. I never understood that. But yeah, you're right.

You're just arguing for the sake of arguing, aren't you?

Not at all... if you want to think that the lady in white is a trick by god, I think that's a good theory, and makes sense. I'm just saying that it seems to me like there's room for alternate theories.

Form of God = God in whatever form it wishes to present itself in = God.

Generally I agree, although I don't think it's quite that clear cut. "Form of god" is a bit of a vague way to put it, and there's wiggle room for other meanings, like for example it could mean "a spirit taking the form that it believes is god." It's not 100% clear from that article if all those are actually meant to be the same entity. And even if they are (which I agree, I think they are) then it doesn't rule out that Alessa/Cheryl's souls could also be a part of that form, and remain in some fashion after the god is killed by Harry. Personally, I think the intent of the writers of SH1 was that Alessa/Cheryl were absorbed into that god, and after you kill it what you see as the lady in white is the remains of Cheryl's soul, which makes sense because of the "Daddy" you hear.

[Soulless-Shadow]

Maybe, just maybe, it's possible for God to take the image of however summons it. Oh, hey, that's exactly what happens. So, the Woman in White is a form it takes, and thus is the God. However, just like Wigeke said, there's a good chance that the God is nothing more than a really powerful manifestation created by the cult's fanaticism and the powers of the area. People (including myself) only call it "God" for simplicities sake.

Right. So there's wiggle room to believe that the form of god you see handing Harry the baby is a form summoned by Cheryl's spirit.

Now we're just arguing ourselves round in circles.

Now, I admit I'm not much of a theologist (is that a real thing?), and I'm not even Catholic, but I know that in the Bible the Holy Spirit is indeed God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all Him. Google it. *edit* Hey, you don't have to google it. It's all right here.

It's really confusing. They're all the same god, yet also seperate somehow. I never understood that. But yeah, you're right.

I don't get how it's confusing. I understand it completely, and I'm an atheist. Or agnostic. I haven't decided yet. (and yes, I realize they're completely different view points. I tend to switch between the two)
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are simply different facets of the same being. Sort of like the two sides to a coin. Only in this instance, it's three rather than two. It's similar with Incubator and Incubus. The same, but different, but the same.

You're just arguing for the sake of arguing, aren't you?

Not at all... if you want to think that the lady in white is a trick by god, I think that's a good theory, and makes sense. I'm just saying that it seems to me like there's room for alternate theories.

More circles.

Form of God = God in whatever form it wishes to present itself in = God.

Generally I agree, although I don't think it's quite that clear cut. "Form of god" is a bit of a vague way to put it, and there's wiggle room for other meanings, like for example it could mean "a spirit taking the form that it believes is god." It's not 100% clear from that article if all those are actually meant to be the same entity.

There's nothing vague about it. "Form of God" is simply the form it chose to present itself in. Think of it like this; outwardly it's different, inwardly it's the same, regardless of what form it appears in. It's like in SH3 when we change Heather's clothes. Her outward appearance changes, and depending on the outfit her abilities, but that's all.

And even if they are (which I agree, I think they are) then it doesn't rule out that Alessa/Cheryl's souls could also be a part of that form, and remain in some fashion after the god is killed by Harry. Personally, I think the intent of the writers of SH1 was that Alessa/Cheryl were absorbed into that god, and after you kill it what you see as the lady in white is the remains of Cheryl's soul, which makes sense because of the "Daddy" you hear.

I never argued that her soul wasn't there somewhere. It had to have been somewhere there in order for the God to reincarnate her. However, the evidence all points to the Woman in White always being God, and never anyone else. Oops, more circles.

[Tillerman]

Now we're just arguing ourselves round in circles.

No. The difference between you and me is that you're trying to sell your version of "the truth", and I'm just saying there are other possibilities. It's as plain as that.

Think of it like this; outwardly it's different, inwardly it's the same, regardless of what form it appears in. It's like in SH3 when we change Heather's clothes. Her outward appearance changes, and depending on the outfit her abilities, but that's all.

It doesn't say that in the article, or in the game. Again, let me be clear... the point of view you are presenting is reasonable, but it's not canonical information.

I never argued that her soul wasn't there somewhere. It had to have been somewhere there in order for the God to reincarnate her. However, the evidence all points to the Woman in White always being God, and never anyone else.

What specifically is the evidence that the woman in white is *always* god? Point me to a quote or article that specifically says the woman in white CANNOT represent anything else.

[Soulless-Shadow]

Now we're just arguing ourselves round in circles.

No. The difference between you and me is that you're trying to sell your version of "the truth", and I'm just saying there are other possibilities. It's as plain as that.

My "version of the truth" is supported by evidence. Evidence that has already been shown to you numerous times. Your version is simply wishful thinking based on lack of evidence.

Think of it like this; outwardly it's different, inwardly it's the same, regardless of what form it appears in. It's like in SH3 when we change Heather's clothes. Her outward appearance changes, and depending on the outfit her abilities, but that's all.

It doesn't say that in the article, or in the game. Again, let me be clear... the point of view you are presenting is reasonable, but it's not canonical information.

Yes, it is. You simply choose to ignore it. It has already been explained why it's canonical information numerous times.

I never argued that her soul wasn't there somewhere. It had to have been somewhere there in order for the God to reincarnate her. However, the evidence all points to the Woman in White always being God, and never anyone else.

What specifically is the evidence that the woman in white is *always* god? Point me to a quote or article that specifically says the woman in white CANNOT represent anything else.

Lack of evidence is not evidence. If the Woman in White is said, by Dahlia and then by Konami, to be God, then she is God. No-one, ever, has ever said that she may be someone else, therefore she is always God.

As much fun as this was, it's starting to get boring because you're not giving any proof to support your view. In fact, all you're doing is saying "give me proof, blah, blah, blah." I, and others, have given you proof that you continue to choose to ignore. Unless you can come up with something ground-breaking to support your idea, then you're just repeating wishful thinking, and therefore perpetuating a now boring discussion. I'm bored, so I'm done.

[Tillerman]

My "version of the truth" is supported by evidence.

I agree. But there's still some interpretation required, and that's the relevant point here.

Think of it like this; outwardly it's different, inwardly it's the same, regardless of what form it appears in. It's like in SH3 when we change Heather's clothes. Her outward appearance changes, and depending on the outfit her abilities, but that's all.

It doesn't say that in the article, or in the game. Again, let me be clear... the point of view you are presenting is reasonable, but it's not canonical information.

Yes, it is. You simply choose to ignore it. It has already been explained why it's canonical information numerous times.

Please direct me to where the explanation of how "outwardly it's different, inwardly it's the same." Quote it.

Lack of evidence is not evidence.

In this case it is, because my point is that it's slightly vague. So lack of evidence naturally backs up my point. Because the lady in white is listed under "forms of god" does not necessarily mean that she is *always* a form of god in all of her appearances... it's possible that wasn't the writer's intention. Because that possibility exists, it's an assumption on your part to say that she is "always" god.

As much fun as this was, it's starting to get boring because you're not giving any proof to support your view.

You're misunderstanding the nature of my argument... I don't need to provide any proof. *You're* the one asserting that your view is canonical, so it is *you* who needs proof. My view is that your theory is based at least partially on assumptions, and I've backed that up quite well. You're being unreasonable to insist that your point of view, which is partially based on assumptions, is canonical.

Doesn't mean it's not a good theory, it may well be correct. But let's stop calling it "canon." It isn't.

[clips]

Maybe, just maybe, it's possible for God to take the image of however summons it. Oh, hey, that's exactly what happens. So, the Woman in White is a form it takes, and thus is the God. However, just like Wigeke said, there's a good chance that the God is nothing more than a really powerful manifestation created by the cult's fanaticism and the powers of the area. People (including myself) only call it "God" for simplicities sake.

This could be true, because after all in SH3 after Claudia absorbs the god fetus that was in Heather, i do believe the god you fight is quite similar if not Claudia's face itself.

And even if they are (which I agree, I think they are) then it doesn't rule out that Alessa/Cheryl's souls could also be a part of that form, and remain in some fashion after the god is killed by Harry. Personally, I think the intent of the writers of SH1 was that Alessa/Cheryl were absorbed into that god, and after you kill it what you see as the lady in white is the remains of Cheryl's soul, which makes sense because of the "Daddy" you hear.

This is what i thought as well...the daddy part was what i believe was Cheryl's essence calling out to Harry and Alessa using the last of her power to split herself and to give Harry another chance to start anew with another baby....even the way alessa/god stops the debris from falling on harry and cybil(depending on your ending) gives the impression that it was indeed alessa saving them.


We are kinda going in circles at this point, but i'm still kinda with Tillerman here......i mean because of the events in SH3, it is what it is now, but the ending in SH1 really didn't give any clear clues that it was indeed the god giving the baby to Harry. Anybody playing that game on their first playthrough and getting that ending would assume it was alessa.

I'm not the type that's stubborn when it comes to these types of theories/facts,...if it's been stated that it's the god, then i'm ok with it(well actually alot of folks have been sayin it)...ALL that i'm sayin' is that the game doesn't give that impression during the last moments of the game.

[stopped_clock]

Maybe, just maybe, it's possible for God to take the image of however summons it. Oh, hey, that's exactly what happens. So, the Woman in White is a form it takes, and thus is the God. However, just like Wigeke said, there's a good chance that the God is nothing more than a really powerful manifestation created by the cult's fanaticism and the powers of the area. People (including myself) only call it "God" for simplicities sake.

This could be true, because after all in SH3 after Claudia absorbs the god fetus that was in Heather, i do believe the god you fight is quite similar if not Claudia's face itself.

The outward from is not based literally on whoever manifested the god, but on what their ideas of the god are, this is why Alessa's manifestation is the benign (looking) woman in white whereas Dahlias is the demonic form. It's their idea of what the god should look like.

In Sh3 Claudia's abortive god attempt bares a resemblance to Alessa because that is how Claudia envisions the god.

[Bill_Idjerint]

Jesus, this sure is confusing. I mean, nobody even brought up my suggestion (except for alone in the town) that what we see are the Incubus/Incubator, and yeah, what I didn't know is that they were mainfestations of god, thus rendering my two cents a bit obsolete...except for the one thing that you guys keep discussing (iirc) which is whether the manifestations are god or not.

Well, this brings me to to the second part of my suggestion, which is the whole "Alessa mother of God/Daughter of God" deal we see on SH3; if she's both of these, she can give birth to and be born from the god, but not be god herself - think about it.