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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
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clips wrote:
Y'know i liked this discussion and still do, but now we're really talking in circles and everybody is explaining the same exact views they had on this issue a few pages back, but only differently. Let's just respectively agree to disagree mmmkay?......:D


I hear you. Personally, I just don't understand why people seem to be ignoring that the guidebook says Alessa gives Harry that baby. Everyone seemed to love the guidebook back when they kept repeatedly quoting that pages that says Incubator is a form of god, but if someone brings up that the guidebook calls the lady in white Alessa, suddenly it's "oh that's not trustworthy." It kinda drives me a little nuts, to be honest.

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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)
     
         
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a) Lost Memories: Silent Hill Chronicle writes Jodie Mason died four years before Harry found Cheryl.

b) It also writes both Good and Good+ are orthodox endings.

The writers/editors made mistakes—I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting. When the guides contradict the games, people go by the games.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)
     
         
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The Adversary wrote:
a) Lost Memories: Silent Hill Chronicle writes Jodie Mason died four years before Harry found Cheryl.

b) It also writes both Good and Good+ are orthodox endings.

The writers/editors made mistakes—I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting. When the guides contradict the games, people go by the games.


b) kinda makes sense, since Cybil isn't around in SH3 anyway. But yeah, those are the kind of mistakes I would expect them to make. I would not expect them to "mistakenly" leave out any mention of the god theory, and "mistakenly" call the lady in white Alessa several times. And that also doesn't contradict SH1 or SH3, it agrees with them.

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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)
     
         
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It agrees with your interpretation. . . . That's significantly different.

>I would not expect them to "mistakenly" leave out any mention of the god theory<
It doesn't. It calls Incubator god.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)
     
         
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The Adversary wrote:
It doesn't. It calls Incubator god.


No, it calls the Incubator "a form of god." It also defines the Incubator as "god fused with Alessa." So logically, if Aglaophotis does what the game makes it seem to do, the lady in white who gives you the baby is no longer the "Incubator." And this is backed up by the ending guide never referring to the lady in white as "god" or "Incubator" after Aglaophotis is used, only "woman" or "Alessa." I keep bringing this point up and it is ignored every time... don't you find it the least bit interesting that the guidebook never refers to the lady in white as "god" or "Incubator" after Aglaophotis? If you don't believe me, please read it yourself!

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)

Missing since: 31 Oct 2009
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Hi all.

I'm new to the discussion, so I'll just summarise my position. I think it's fairly obvious that the glowing woman is Alessa possessed by God. I reviewed the ending scene where the Aphaglotawhadda was used, and it seems blatantly obvious that the demon is separating from Alessa. This ties in with what Aphaglotawhadda does to Cybil earlier in the game. On the other hand, you could argue that due to technical limitations, they couldn't produce a real looking transformation in-game.

I do concede that the body of Alessa does disappear during the battle, and that you could argue that a transformation occurs at the end. We see the death of the demon form, a glow of light, and the reappearance of the glowing woman. Alternatively, the glowing woman could have simply 'faded out' during the battle, only to reappear once the demon's presence was gone.

Or, it could have been a technical limitation.

However, I believe the whole discussion is a bit of a red herring. Even if it is established that a transformation, rather than a separation, occurred, this proves in no way whatsoever than the glowing woman was not Alessa. For me, the most convincing piece of evidence is where the defeated Alessa/God calls Harry 'Daddy'. Can't get much more clear than that.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)
     
         
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Quote:
and it seems blatantly obvious that the demon is separating from Alessa.


And yet the woman in white vanishes into thin air, and then the demon magically turns back into the woman in white.

Quote:
I do concede that the body of Alessa does disappear during the battle, and that you could argue that a transformation occurs at the end. We see the death of the demon form, a glow of light, and the reappearance of the glowing woman. Alternatively, the glowing woman could have simply 'faded out' during the battle, only to reappear once the demon's presence was gone.

Or, it could have been a technical limitation.


It wasn't a technical limitation, given that corpses have been on screen for longer during these sorts of cutscenes. If they needed to remove it, they could've had the body be magically disintegrated onscreen.

Quote:
However, I believe the whole discussion is a bit of a red herring. Even if it is established that a transformation, rather than a separation, occurred, this proves in no way whatsoever than the glowing woman was not Alessa. For me, the most convincing piece of evidence is where the defeated Alessa/God calls Harry 'Daddy'. Can't get much more clear than that.


Which doesn't prove anything, whatsoever, because it's God, and God's purpose is to make people happy, even when it's dying.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)
     
         
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AuraTwilight wrote:
And yet the woman in white vanishes into thin air, and then the demon magically turns back into the woman in white.


That's *your* interpretation, don't recite it as if it's truth. What you actually see happening is vague, and can be interpreted in a number of different ways. Perhaps the Alessa's body is damaged/destroyed when Incubus rises out of her (as you can clearly see happening) and then is restored once Incubus dies, hence why it appears in the flash of light after Incubus disappears. We know your interpretation is wrong because it contradicts the guidebook, which states that the lady in white who gives Harry the baby is Alessa.

AuraTwilight wrote:
Which doesn't prove anything, whatsoever, because it's God, and God's purpose is to make people happy, even when it's dying.


It may not prove anything, but hearing "Daddy" in your daughter's voice as Incubus dies certainly seems to be there for an important reason, and should not be ignored.

There's no evidence that the lady in white who gives Harry the baby is god. Even the section on god's forms calls Incubator a form of god, not the lady in white, and the Incubator was specifically defined as God fusing with Alessa. So when Incubus emerges from Alessa because of Aglaophotis (which purges evil form the body), the logical thing to assume is that lady in white is no longer god, it is just Alessa. And this is in fact confirmed by the guidebook which specifically calls the lady in white Alessa.

untamedbananaslug: Yeah, I agree that this is how the game seems to portray events. However, if you just look at the game alone, it is a bit vague and there's room for alternate explanations like "god was trying to trick Harry." However, the creators pretty much spelled out in the guidebook what is happening, which doesn't leave room for a lot of alternate theories anymore. I can understand why some people might resent that.

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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)
     
         
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It's a shame that questionable phrasing keeps this controversy alive. Or, that questionable phrasing is worth more than a mountain of contrary evidence.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)
     
         
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alone in the town wrote:
It's a shame that questionable phrasing keeps this controversy alive. Or, that questionable phrasing is worth more than a mountain of contrary evidence.


First of all, it's not "questionable phrasing," the guidebook clearly states that Incubator is god fused with Alessa, and that the lady in white is Alessa. The only thing "questionable" is to ignore these facts.

And secondly, there is no solid evidence for the god theory. None. It's all based on your interpetation of vague words, cutscenes, and character motivations. But the fact is, all of your interpretations that you call "a mountain of evidence" can be interpreted a different way (and many of the evidences in this "mountain" are questionable in thier own right.) But on the other hand, you can't interpet the guidebook calling the lady in white "Alessa" another way, can you? That's the difference between interpretation and fact.

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)
     
         
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Your entire theory rests upon the assumption that "Alessa" is in any way the same being as Alessa Gillespie, completely as she was before it all happened.

No evidence exists, at all, to suggest this is true, other than the name. The fact that she's behaving contrary to how she behaves all throughout the series (unless we invent the completely unsupported fanfiction of Cheryl still existing, and ignoring Dahlia's statement to the contrary), the fact that she's using a power that no source attributes to Alessa Gillespie anyplace else, the fact that "Alessa" still bears a remarkable resemblance to one of God's forms and magically appears where Incubus disappears (what, was she trapped inside of the released Incubus?), and, the fact that it's not possible for someone to be reincarnated while still alive, all point to this reference being erratic or one of the book's contradictory entries, such as the conflicting views on which ending is canonical. It states outright that GOOD is the orthodox ending, but apparently, many people believe otherwise, with at least a shred of justification.

Since you're fine with ignoring everything listed above, I'm cool with interpreting "Alessa" in a way that is actually consistent with everything else. Removing that piece makes your theory basically groundless. But, you can believe anything you want. I would prefer you not behave as though your theory actually rests on anything except creative interpretation and complete fabrication.

Besides all that, the reason our theory is better is because the 'why' is entirely plausible, whereas there's no reason one can give for Alessa being charitable that can in any way be explained by her character as it is presented to us.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)

Missing since: 31 Oct 2009
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AuraTwilight wrote:
Quote:
and it seems blatantly obvious that the demon is separating from Alessa.


And yet the woman in white vanishes into thin air, and then the demon magically turns back into the woman in white.


And yet it seems blatantly obvious that the demon separates from Alessa. That, combined with the precedent set by Cybil and the Aphaglottawhadda (it's expels demonic entities from the host), tells me a lot.

That the woman vanishes into thin air isn't necessarily indicative of a transformation. It's well established by precedent that stuff vanishes into thin air *all the time* in Silent Hill. Alessa may very well have lost a lot of energy after having a demon come out of her back, and may not have had the stamina to hold a corporeal form. Once the demonic presence is gone, the body of Alessa reappears, although it is still faint and translucent, supporting my contention that she is drained from her experience.

It is quite evident, even just from Silent Hill 1 itself, that the demonic entity is driven from Alessa with the Aphaglottawhadda. I hate to make reference to another game (like I said in another thread, each game should be self-contained and adequately explain the events occurring in it), but the eye-witness account of Harry makes it clear that the demon disappeared, and the glowing woman reappeared. He said nothing about a transformation. I only bring this up because this is in line with what the gamer themselves observes in SH1. I'm not just imagining what I saw, the everyman who was 2 feet away from the scene corroborates me.

Quote:
It wasn't a technical limitation, given that corpses have been on screen for longer during these sorts of cutscenes. If they needed to remove it, they could've had the body be magically disintegrated onscreen.


And had they wanted to show a transformation, they could have used a cutscene, much as they did for Lisa, instead of having the demon pop out of Alessa's back. Or even done it convincingly in-game, as they did for Mary in SH2.

Note that I didn't say that the body necessarily disappeared due to technical limitations, I merely posed it as one option. It's also quite possibly be an oversight by the designers, or even an attempt to clear the boss battle floor. I *may* be wrong about this, but I can't remember seeing Kaufman or Cybil on the stage floor, or the background for that matter. I'm not sure if Dahlia's shot body is present, I'd need to check.

Quote:
Which doesn't prove anything, whatsoever, because it's God, and God's purpose is to make people happy, even when it's dying.


- Can you prove that the purpose of the God is to make Harry happy, rather than simply being a primal entity driven by hatred and fear, an enraged animal which lashes out at anything close to it, as was demonstrated in SH1?

- Can you demonstrate that God is aware of what makes individual humans genuinely happy?

- Can you explain why, if 'God' was trying to make Harry happy, it tried to kill Harry a moment before? I guess you could make the (unsupported) argument that God thinks that it is doing people a favour by killing them. But even then, why not tell Harry that his daughter is fine, before attempting to kill him?

Occam's razor, my friend. Occam's razor. The glowing lady likely said 'Daddy, thank you' in Cheryl's voice when it is near death because is it Alessa. Harry has beaten on Alessa enough to tame the demonic entity inside her. As such, her Alessa persona re-emerges just before death. This seems blatantly obvious to me. No creative thinking is needed on my part, my conclusions just flow naturally from the in-game occurrences.

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
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Occam's Razor says that Alessa Gillespie dies when God is birthed, because that same process is shown to irrevocably destroy both Heather and Claudia when either undergo the same process.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
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alone in the town wrote:
Your entire theory rests upon the assumption that "Alessa" is in any way the same being as Alessa Gillespie, completely as she was before it all happened.

No evidence exists, at all, to suggest this is true, other than the name.


No evidence is needed, that's the logical conclusion. (Although to be accurate, I wouldn't say that lady in white Alessa is the same "being", just the same soul.) If you're going to claim that the game's writers didn't mean Alessa when they said Alessa, that's a bold claim. Back it up.

alone in the town wrote:
The fact that she's behaving contrary to how she behaves all throughout the series (unless we invent the completely unsupported fanfiction of Cheryl still existing, and ignoring Dahlia's statement to the contrary),


Wrong. Dahlia specifically states that Cheryl still exists. I hate to keep repeating myself, but since you keep ignoring this, here it are Dahlia's quotes again: "What are you talking about? You’ve seen her many times, restored to her former self." and "Don’t you see? She’s right there." Dahlia literally says that Alessa is Cheryl restored to her former self. The obvious implication is that Cheryl's soul is part of Alessa. And we literally know this is true because Heather retains Cheryl's memories. Why do you keep ignoring these facts?

alone in the town wrote:
and, the fact that it's not possible for someone to be reincarnated while still alive,


Irrelevant, it's also impossible to split one's soul. And as I keep trying to explain to you, you're hanging on your literal interpretation of that word reincarnation way too much.

alone in the town wrote:
Since you're fine with ignoring everything listed above, I'm cool with interpreting "Alessa" in a way that is actually consistent with everything else.


In other words, consistent with your pre-concieved theories. All of the "contradictions" above (aside from the good ending thing) are contradictions you invented by interpreting things in your own way. If you look at all the facts in an unbiased way, you'll see that your interpretation makes no sense. It's incredibly obvious that the writers intended that it was Alessa who gave Harry that baby, both from the guidebook, SH3, and the game itself. So the fact that the guidebook literally states that Alessa gives Harry the baby is not a contradiction... your God theory is the contradiction.

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Last edited by Tillerman on 14 Mar 2011, edited 1 time in total.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)

Missing since: 31 Oct 2009
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alone in the town wrote:
Occam's Razor says that Alessa Gillespie dies when God is birthed, because that same process is shown to irrevocably destroy both Heather and Claudia when either undergo the same process.


Occam's Razor says that the Glowing Woman called Harry 'Daddy' in Cheryl's voice because she possesses the Cheryl persona.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)
     
         
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alone in the town wrote:
Occam's Razor says that Alessa Gillespie dies when God is birthed, because that same process is shown to irrevocably destroy both Heather and Claudia when either undergo the same process.


First of all, the same process doesn't actually show anything in either Heather's or Claudia's case. In Claudia's case, you don't actually see what happens to her. In Heather's case you see her turn into a nasty red color. You're inventing the fact that their bodies are "irrevocably destroyed." And by the way, Occam's Razor means the simplest solution is usually the right one. You might want to keep that in mind when you use it.

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
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Tillerman wrote:
alone in the town wrote:
Occam's Razor says that Alessa Gillespie dies when God is birthed, because that same process is shown to irrevocably destroy both Heather and Claudia when either undergo the same process.


First of all, the same process doesn't actually show anything in either Heather's or Claudia's case. In Claudia's case, you don't actually see what happens to her. In Heather's case you see her turn into a nasty red color. You're inventing the fact that their bodies are "irrevocably destroyed."

But we do see Claudia's discarded robes after she the swallows the God-foetus and disappears down that hole (well, gets pulled down there by Valtiel). There's nothing else of her down there. Her remains couldn't have been an oversight or game limitations, or clearing the area for a boss fight. If it were, then her empty robes wouldn't have been down there for all the world to see. Unless Claudia decided to celebrate the birth of God with a nudie run through the otheworld, then I can't think of another explanation other than her body being destroyed or reconfigured or whatever during the birthing process. Anyone else have an alternate explanation?


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)

Missing since: 31 Oct 2009
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Soulless-Shadow wrote:
Tillerman wrote:
alone in the town wrote:
Occam's Razor says that Alessa Gillespie dies when God is birthed, because that same process is shown to irrevocably destroy both Heather and Claudia when either undergo the same process.


First of all, the same process doesn't actually show anything in either Heather's or Claudia's case. In Claudia's case, you don't actually see what happens to her. In Heather's case you see her turn into a nasty red color. You're inventing the fact that their bodies are "irrevocably destroyed."

But we do see Claudia's discarded robes after she the swallows the God-foetus and disappears down that hole (well, gets pulled down there by Valtiel). There's nothing else of her down there. Her remains couldn't have been an oversight or game limitations, or clearing the area for a boss fight. If it were, then her empty robes wouldn't have been down there for all the world to see. Unless Claudia decided to celebrate the birth of God with a nudie run through the otheworld, then I can't think of another explanation other than her body being destroyed or reconfigured or whatever during the birthing process. Anyone else have an alternate explanation?


Nobody has provided a plausible explanation as to why the Glowing Woman says 'Daddy, thank you' before dying. Nor has anyone provided a plausible explanation as to why Alessa 'transformed' when hit with the Aphaglottawadda.

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
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untamedbananaslug wrote:
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
But we do see Claudia's discarded robes after she the swallows the God-foetus and disappears down that hole (well, gets pulled down there by Valtiel). There's nothing else of her down there. Her remains couldn't have been an oversight or game limitations, or clearing the area for a boss fight. If it were, then her empty robes wouldn't have been down there for all the world to see. Unless Claudia decided to celebrate the birth of God with a nudie run through the otheworld, then I can't think of another explanation other than her body being destroyed or reconfigured or whatever during the birthing process. Anyone else have an alternate explanation?


Nobody has provided a plausible explanation as to why the Glowing Woman says 'Daddy, thank you' before dying. Nor has anyone provided a plausible explanation as to why Alessa 'transformed' when hit with the Aphaglottawadda.


That's not what I was asking. I was asking what people thought happened to Claudia's body after she swallowed the foetus and disappeared down the hole. For the moment that has nothing to do with the Woman in White's daddy issues.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Confusion about the god (spoilers)
     
         
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^That's a good question. The answer is in the guidebook. We know that when god is "born", it fuses with it's host and takes control. Therefore, in SH3 god fuses with Claudia's body and then takes the shape of the god in Claudia's mind. That's why there's no trace left of Claudia but her clothes... when you killed god you also killed whatever was left of Claudia. This is also similar to what happens in the bad endings of SH1... since Aglaophotis is never used, Alessa stays fused with god and you end up killing them both. That's why it's a bad ending. Makes sense, right?

So in other words, you were right when you said "reconfigured." This also seems like a good description of what happens in SH1, Alessa's body is "reconfigured" to look like the lady in white.

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