So which ending is canon?

[Yuki]

Remind me: is it ever outright stated that Cybil definitely died? Or is she just not mentioned in SH3? Perhaps even though SH3 was written with Good in mind, it's possible they separated because Cybil was too traumatized (or Harry was, or some other circumstance) and so Good+ is reconcilable.

[Kenji]

I'm a little rusty on my Engrish, but it looks like all Toyama actually said was that he intended for Good+ to be found a few weeks down the line, presumably after a few replays, rather than discovered immediately.

While I can't say anything for Gravity Rush, all of Toyama's games have always shown a healthy respect for the imagination of the player. Hell, SH1 remains the scariest in the series precisely for its respect for the imagination.

(and that's the primary reason I consider HD in Silent Hill irrelevant, if not detrimental, because the horror of Silent Hill never relied on graphical power! They were barely even related!)

Both Silent Hill and the first two Siren games didn't even spell out what was going on in the plot, instead opting to lay out a bunch of details and allowing the player -- if interested (and this is an important bit that tons of game devs fail to consider) -- can glue together with their imaginations. If uninterested, they can just soak in the horror and let the frankly oblique and vague cutscenes just point them in the right direction and contribute to their disorientation.

While I could ask Toyama, myself, to clarify (I've been kinda meaning to say something to him, since he's now been following my Twitter for around a year), I don't really see the point. He's not good with English (and I'm remedial with my Japanese), Twitter's a horrible place to ask for clarification, and I don't think I'd get a straight answer, anyway. Not from the behavior he's shown as a game developer.

He strikes me as the kind of guy who'd be more interested in hearing my theories of what's happening in his games than he would be in getting all Burning Bush on me and telling me what actually happened.

[clips]

I've already been in over a dozen discussions concerning this ending. Naturally "good" is the one true ending since it directly connects it's theme from the first game to the third. There's no way Harry would've known what to do with the mysterious red liquid and furthermore before you even do that you have to let Cybil actually grab you.

Nobody back then would've thought to have let a crazed possessed Cybil grab them or even thought that was in the gaming mechanic, back then if a creature like that even touched you, you would think it would end up killing you...

That said, i always stated i wanted to see a stand alone game starring cybil and just to let her experience her own personal horror since SH1. Even tho she wasn't mentioned in 3, i think they could still craft it in a way to show that she survived somehow(If they wanted to pursue a game starring Cybil)...it really doesn't matter to me tho, as far as i'm concerned Heather's story is finished, and i'm perfectly fine with closing that chapter and having new entries with different characters and interesting storylines.

With Toyama saying what he's saying now, i think it's pretty clear that "Good" is the official ending...it's kinda hard to now say "hey Good+ is the ending now"..tho they could still make Cybil be alive by what i stated above...

[The Adversary]

>before you even do that you have to let Cybil actually grab you<
That's not true.

[Augophthalmoses]

And TwinPerfect has responded with the usual logically bankrupt thought processing.

http://twin-perfect.com/blog/index.php/intent-or-canon/

In our video series, The Real Silent Hill Experience, we stated that the ‘Good+’ ending was the real ending on the basis that it was the ending most difficult to achieve and contained the most plot information. Our statements were met with disapproval, even outrage that we would go against the ‘canon’ established by the later Silent Hill games and Konami published books such as the Lost Memories section of the official Japanese Silent Hill 3 strategy guide, all pointing in the direction of Silent Hill’s ‘Good’ ending.

Discrepancies such as this were the subject of The Real Silent Hill Experience, where we drew a line between old games and new; what was the ‘intent’ (laid out in Silent Hill 1-3) and what was canonical. We had done something nobody had ever done before: formed a full analysis of the series using only information from the games and creators, and in doing so found that not everything Konami releases agrees with the first three games. In fact, many sources with Konami’s stamp of approval contradict the first three games outright. We determined that what is considered part of the ‘canon’ of the series is not necessarily in keeping with the original intent.

Jeremy Blaustein, series localization and voice-acting director, defined “canon” as it relates to Silent Hill.

Blaustein: “Let me clear something up: “Canon” is anything in the Silent Hill games that was produced by Konami. For SH2, 3 and 4, that means anything written by me. Period. End of story. In fact, that is the definition of Canon. If tomm says it, it is canon. If I say it, canon. Devin? canon. If a former actor says it or if some kid in their moms basement say it, not so much. Pretty clear?”

(The last seems like a stab at us and at Silent Hill 2 voice-actor Guy Cihi. Blaustein has expressed negative views of both.)

Current series producer Tomm Hulett makes regular blog posts lecturing players on the subjects of ‘authorial intent’ and ‘canon’. Indeed, there is a post inspired by us dedicated to the discussion of which Silent Hill ending is canonical. Tomm states that the Silent Hill series is an exception to the rule that “the author’s intent is the final word”, and that all answers are right answers until the ‘canon’ shows otherwise. But this can lead to confusion when two sources of canon are contradicting each other.

Tomm Hulett has on one occasion provided an argument against our view of a singular-dimensional Silent Hill, and more recently stated, “the games don’t span multiple dimensions.” (This after the release of our supplementary video describing our argument more completely…) This last statement was (vaguely) contradicted (maybe?) even more recently by Jeremy Blaustein in a lengthy discussion on our Facebook fan page.

When sources of canon are contradicting each other, where does one turn? We at Twin Perfect turn to the intent of the original three games and their creators (with the games taking precedent). They are the only sources of information that remain constant and consistent.

Recently, Twilight Nebula citizen Taylor the Impaler had a correspondence with Silent Hill creator Keiichiro Toyama (via translation by series art director Masahiro Ito over Twitter) about the true ending of Silent Hill 1.

Toyama: “I started to write that story without to decide ending, but I thought it was necessary to make a great change and surprise in it, toward writing the ending of the story. So I thought up the dead of Cybil and “Good+” ending. I thought it was desirable that the “Good+” ending would be become clear after few weeks since it was released, but it was found out immediately.
I remember that I said “Good” was the true ending, because Good+ is a game’s game. Probably, Owaku rememberd that and he wrote SH3 story as a sequel to “Good”.But, now, I change my mind and consider the “Good+” is a true ending.”

(The second part of this quote may be a statement from Masahiro Ito, rather than Toyama)

Previously, we had made another case for the Good+ ending, thanks to YouTube commenter MegaBearsFan, who reminded us that Hiroyuki Owaku, Silent Hill’s writer, can be quoted in ‘Lost Memories’ stating:

Owaku: “What happens to [Cybil] afterwards is left to players’ imaginations.”

Since Cybil does not live through the Good ending, nothing would be left for us to decide, and the only viable option then is the Good+. In this case, two (if not three) of the original creators have stated their intent, and it contradicts the statements Tomm Hulett makes as part of his “all endings are true” argument, which allows for Cybil’s death at Harry’s hands. We have no choice but to chose the side of author intent. The line between ‘intent’ and ‘canon’ is becoming ever more solid.

Even then, we are faced with criticism for coming to any conclusion at all. Tomm takes a passive-aggressive stab at us for forcing our will onto others when it comes to our video series (this from an article that supposedly celebrates any and all interpretations of Silent Hill’s story). But, if the conclusions in our video series made sense to someone and changed their views, who is Tomm to say that’s wrong? Is the reasoning power of our viewers not considered in this case?

He believes that any attempt to piece together a definitive answer to the series’ questions defies the spirit of the series. We could not disagree more. We think the games are a puzzle with a definite answer that’s up to the player to piece together. The fact that Toyama is providing us with a definite answer that disagrees with popular opinion seems to back up that claim. Even Tomm stated, “There are answers and Konami has them,” so why provide a mystery and then discourage the conclusion to which an investigation leads?

Perhaps because it’s the only way to justify the incongruities that materials outside of the original three games create.

These incongruities are what truly defy the spirit of the series. It’s as if you are putting together an “author intent” jigsaw puzzle, and then someone comes along and dumps a deceptively similar “canon” puzzle into your pile of puzzle pieces. You may complete a whole section of the puzzle only to discover that it doesn’t fit with the one you were already putting together. This is what it’s like to be a Silent Hill fan nowadays.

The real slap in the face is that we payed the company that gave us the original puzzle for the offending pieces.

[Tillerman]

TwinPerfect's take on this is laughable. They put more spin on a story than Glenn Beck.

I guess Tillerman is right and some of these guys just didn't know what the hell their own intentions were.

See, I knew we'd agree in the end!

It's interesting that they apparently all decided the Good ending was the "real" ending, yet don't seem to push that very hard in the guidebook. On many things the guidebook seems to go out of it's way to spell things out, but on Cybil it's use your imagination. If they all decided she was dead, then why was Owaku so coy about it? Why not just say she was dead? Maybe he just didn't have the heart to say she was dead.

Well, I finally feel satisfied that we know the truth on this issue. They wrote SH3 with the Good ending in mind, but Toyama thinks that the "truth" of the matter is flexible. I guess it's up to us to decide who we agree with, but I'm glad the facts are known now.

Remind me: is it ever outright stated that Cybil definitely died?

No, never in game. The only definitive statements about her fate came from Lost Memories, up until twitter.

While I can't say anything for Gravity Rush,

I've actually heard amazing things about it from Japanese players. I'm looking forward to it.

There's no way Harry would've known what to do with the mysterious red liquid

This is irrelevant now, but for the record the play novel says that Harry guesses the red liquid's usage by noticing Cybil's red eyes. I wish I would have mentioned that earlier in the thread when it would have mattered, but I only just found out about it.

[clips]

This is irrelevant now, but for the record the play novel says that Harry guesses the red liquid's usage by noticing Cybil's red eyes. I wish I would have mentioned that earlier in the thread when it would have mattered, but I only just found out about it.

This is still kinda reachin' tho and this is after the fact....at the time when SH first dropped, there was no play novel or twiiter/youtube etc....at the time of playing the game on your first playthrough nobody knew what to do with the red liquid unless you had a guide.

I still agree with what both you and Ryan stated in terms of what these guys really didn't know what their true intentions were. I'm sure when they wrote SH1, they wasn't looking ahead and already had a script out for 3...i'm sure they just made it up as they went along...which is why there is so much vagueness around whether cybil is alive, or which ending is the true ending. Even tho i feel the "good" is the official ending, i think it's better to leave these things mysterious and up to the player, unless the writers say that cybil is alive otherwise in a future game.

[Tillerman]

This is still kinda reachin' tho and this is after the fact....

You're right, it kind of is. But just letting you know that's what the play novel says.

Even tho i feel the "good" is the official ending, i think it's better to leave these things mysterious and up to the player, unless the writers say that cybil is alive otherwise in a future game.

I agree, and I feel like the creators probably agree with that too.

[Alex420]

If Owaku wrote Silent Hill 3 upon the Good ending (which Toyama says Owaku "probably" did), then by all means, that's the canon ending. It doesn't matter if Toyama feels Good+ was the true ending, Owaku still retconned it. Toyama never worked on SH3. If you want to know which ending is canon, you should go to Owaku, not Toyama.

Owaku says Cybil's fate is left up to the player's imaginations in a section regarding the GOOD+ ENDING. Somehow, people ignored the fact that it was written in a section about Good+, and began applying his statements to the other endings and the game in general. People took his quote out of context, which is why we've had so many issues with Cybil's fate.

Also, some people need to get it through their skulls that Good is the ending which takes the most effort. Good+ requires the most foreknowledge. Foreknowledge =/= effort. Killing Cybil takes much more effort than simply picking up some red liquid and splashing it on her in a matter of seconds. Story-wise, other fans have suggested that it makes zero sense for Harry to go, "Oh, what's this mysterious liquid on the floor? I know what I'll do! I'll go into the kitchen, grab a bottle, and keep the liquid with me just in case I'll need to use it on a possessed person in the future. "

Good is an ending which takes you through the most effort and tragedy. The story of Silent Hill is supposed to be a tragic one (in which bad things happen to good people). Like Twin Perfect, I've been studying Silent Hill for years, but I feel that Good is the ending which fits the series the most and makes the most sense in regards to SH3.

I want Cybil to be known as a heroine who sacrificed her life, not as some selfish officer who said "Well, that was one epic journey. Bye Harry, I'm going to go disappear forever now. Peace."
Let's face it: she's never coming back and Homecoming, which takes approx 24 years later after SH1, heavily implies that she never escaped Silent Hill and the only evidence left behind was her motorcycle.

[Tillerman]

Let's face it: she's never coming back

Even if the Good+ ending were the "official canon," it'd still be very unlikely that she'd come back. And if they really wanted her to come back, her "death" could very easily be retconned at any point, especially as it's never explicitly stated in the games. But I don't see that happening, I don't see any old characters coming back anytime soon. The original creators have moved on, and the new developers will likely continue to tell new stories with new characters. If the Silent Hill series is still viable after Downpour, I honestly expect them to throw out the old canon and do a reboot at some point.

I kinda like how Toyama just completely ignores the "canon," and forms his own opinion. I feel like he's encouraging us to do the same.

[Alex420]

They already did a re-imagining with Shattered Memories, so if they ever decided to do a reboot in the future, I'd love them to expand on that universe instead. I'd also love a professional SH1 remake, similar to Ocarina of Time's. SH1 is a PS1 game with outdated graphics and controls, and I feel that a good remake would bring draw people into the series.

While the games don't definitively state Cybil's death, the Book of Lost Memories states that Good is connected to SH3, and I feel like that's explicit enough to determine her fate. If future developers ever retconned her death, it'd go against the known canon and would... probably piss off a lot of fans (including me). I really don't want the series to become more convoluted.

Also, off-topic, I checked your website and read your biography on there. You are freaking cool.

[clips]

They already did a re-imagining with Shattered Memories, so if they ever decided to do a reboot in the future, I'd love them to expand on that universe instead. I'd also love a professional SH1 remake, similar to Ocarina of Time's. SH1 is a PS1 game with outdated graphics and controls, and I feel that a good remake would bring draw people into the series.

While the games don't definitively state Cybil's death, the Book of Lost Memories states that Good is connected to SH3, and I feel like that's explicit enough to determine her fate. If future developers ever retconned her death, it'd go against the known canon and would... probably piss off a lot of fans (including me). I really don't want the series to become more convoluted.

Also, off-topic, I checked your website and read your biography on there. You are freaking cool.

The thing is tho, they left themselves some cover by keeping it vague...saying things like she was never seen or never heard of again, or making statements along those lines and never really stating she died, can leave them some room if they ever wanted to use her again, but like Tillerman stated, i don't see them bringing her back for any future title in series.

[Alex420]

The thing is tho, they left themselves some cover by keeping it vague...

By "they", you mean Ito and Toyama. Ito is only the art director and Toyama only wrote SH1. Like I said, no one's really asked Owaku about the matter.

Owaku has never said anything contradictory (people just seem to take his "left to the player's imagination" out of context.) But I bet that if we contacted him, he'd give us a more of a straight-forward answer (in contrast to Ito's and Toyama's "uhh... we ain't so sure.")
I'm putting my trust and faith in Owaku.

Although... I kind of already feel guilty about everyone interrogating Ito for answers (lol).

[The Adversary]

>Like Twin Perfect, I've been studying Silent Hill for years<
Those two haven't been "studying Silent Hill for years." Being a part of the community doesn't mean you've been studying it. Moeru's been studying it for years. Ryan's been studying it for years. Jessica's been studying it for years. I've been studying it for years. Those two have just been around—or, more appropriately, in the way—for years.

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Sorry, had to.

[Kenji]

If Owaku gave a straightforward answer, all it'd demonstrate is that he doesn't understand why people give a damn about Silent Hill.

I suppose, in its own way, that'd clear up a few things.

[Tillerman]

Also, off-topic, I checked your website and read your biography on there. You are freaking cool.

Hey, thanks. Appreciate that.

If future developers ever retconned her death, it'd go against the known canon and would... probably piss off a lot of fans (including me). I really don't want the series to become more convoluted.

What I think pisses off fans more is simply trying to do anything with the old characters, period. No one seems to like the way they were handled in Origins. SM gets a pass because it's an alternate universe. Even if they try to bring back someone who's canonically still alive, like Heather for example, I don't think the fans would be too thrilled. No matter how they'd try to write her, I don't think it would come off well. People have certain expectations and those expectations are too easily betrayed. What they should do is leave the old characters alone and stick to trying to tell new stories. And if this series continues, I think that's what they will do.

[DinoNerd89]

I know im about 12 years late to this discussion(LOL), but reading the debate and arguments on whether Cybil is alive was quite intriguing.

You can argue she is alive due to Silent Hill actually running on some insane, nightmarishly screwy logic, or you can say shes dead because of other games in the series and what the orginal devs say, but with a few new games coming out, maybe we will get an absolute definite answer, but who knows?

[DinoNerd89]

I know im about 12 years late to this discussion(LOL), but reading the debate and arguments on whether Cybil is alive was quite intriguing.

You can argue she is alive due to Silent Hill actually running on some insane, nightmarishly screwy logic, or you can say shes dead because of other games in the series and what the orginal devs say, but with a few new games coming out, maybe we will get an absolute definite answer, but who knows?

And i would like to add, characters in other series were "brought" back with some hand waving, and like i said, Silent Hill has some..... rather strange logic it runs on, so it would be interesting to see how Cybil is handled, if she ever does get another chance.

[DinoNerd89]

But if were going with what ending we think is cannon, then im saying UFO. Aliens high on White Claudia is really the only explanation for all the craziness in Silent Hill.