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 Post subject: Lisa and the Virun VII Crest
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
Notes left: 11052
Last seen at: In the anals of forum history
Back in 2005, a topic began with a theory by F and Burning Man regarding Lisa's true purpose in Silent Hill. Though the thread still exists, I wanted to start a new one based on the same general concept, so that discussion can flow without half of the posts having no name and newer members mistakenly quoting posts from half a decade past. A fresh start will be nice. Plus, I would like to expand some on the idea, and why I like it.

The concept is as follows:

Lisa is believed, by many, to be a manifestation/ghost/instrument of Valtiel, etc. To make this possible, she would have had to die before the events of the game. Most assume this happened, and further, that she was specifically murdered by Dt. Kaufmann. Though some information exists to suggest this as possible, there is no proof.

But, if she's real, that introduces issues. She's confined to the hospital. She only appears in the -otherside-. Eventually, she 'dies', and takes on mannerisms not unlike the possessed nurses and doctors seen in Alchemilla Hospital. How could this all be true if she's a real person and still alive?

The answer is: The Virun VII Crest used to seal Alchemilla Hospital into the -otherside- was placed directly on her person.

Reason:

The best explanation for this is that Alessa is going to seal off Alchemilla anyway, and so uses Lisa as the focus to prevent her from succumbing to the parasites which have taken over the rest of the hospital staff. Perhaps Lisa's being drawn into the Otherworld was unintentional or unavoidable, and Alessa means for everyone within to not survive what she plans to do. This could be a means to allow her 'angel' to retain her humanity until it's over, and avoid the fate of her contemporaries.

Evidence:


  • The Crest is visible nowhere in the hospital.

    Unique among all [otherside] locations in the game, there is no visible evidence of the Crest. Everywhere else, in the school, the Antique shop, the sewer, and all around town after it falls into that abyss, the Virun VII Crest is worked into the environment, a watermark of the power which was responsible for creating what Harry sees around him. Alchemilla is an exception to this. Although it looks every bit as hellish as the aforementioned locations, the Crest is conspicuous in its absence.

  • Lisa only appears in the [otherside].

    This is another fact easily explained by this theory: If she bears the Crest, it would make perfect sense that she is never seen in the normalside version of the hospital. No other character is limited in this fashion. If she were merely a manifestation, this would not apply to her, because other manifestations do appear in the normalside town. There is no other theory which adequately explains this limitation.

  • Lisa cannot leave the Hospital.

    If she bore the crest which sealed away the Hospital, it would explain her otherwise-unexplained inability to leave the Hospital. She feels she is 'not supposed to leave this place', which would make sense if she bore the Crest for this location. She would be compelled to stay, regardless of what she might otherwise want to do.

  • Nowhere and Lisa's Death

    Lisa claims to finally understand what's going on, and that she's the 'same as them', them being the other nurses. This realization is considered by most to trigger the disintegration of her manifestation and revert her into just a regular monster.

    However, there's an alternative to it merely being the result of self-realization.

    The Flauros is used to attack Alessa and the result of this is that the [otherside] begins to decay. Everyone ends up in a place called Nowhere, which seems to contain no spatial continuity. The [otherside] is breaking down, and if the Flauros does this by somehow weakening or destroying the Virun VII Crests which sealed places into it, and Lisa bears the Virun VII Crest for Alchemilla, then we can attribute her rapid disintegration to the effects of the Flauros.

    She begins exhibiting strange behavior immediately. Soon, she begins to physically break down, and by the end, she's little more than mindless, with just enough left to identify one of her tormentors and exact revenge upon him. She is, in other worlds, reflecting the state of the [otherside].

  • Lisa isn't quite "the same as them".

    It is revealed (see below) that Lisa comes to understand that she's the same as the possessed doctors and nurses haunting the hospital. Most people assume this means that Lisa is a manifestation, because they believe the nurses and doctors are manifestations. This is not correct.

    Lost Memories, pp. 26-27, indicate that the Nurses (and by extension, the doctors) were real people drawn into the Otherworld and attacked by a parasite which assumed control over their bodies. We are given extra reason to believe they were real, because we witness it happen to Cybil (the same exact terminology was used to describe her attack by the parasite) and, if we save her from the parasite, we learn that it is not fatal. Cybil emerges from the experience intact. This means, if Lisa is the 'same as them', it also means she's a real person and not a manifestation or ghost.

    If one factors in the idea that she bears the Virun VII Crest, it may explain how she can be a real human being and yet remain unaffected by the parasites. It is the easiest explanation which accounts for both facts simultaneously.

  • The Virun VII Crest is explicitly associated with Lisa in Silent Hill 3.

    Except for the 'worthless' physical object called the Seal of Metatron, the Crest itself appears only once in Silent Hill 3, fittingly, as the normalside version of Brookhaven is transforming into the [otherside]. Examining this Crest gives Heather a flashback of Lisa, a short rumination on her behalf, and the realization that this Crest does not make her head hurt, as does the Halo of the Sun seen frequently throughout the game. It is never seen again, and Lisa is never mentioned afterwards.

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Last edited by Ryantology on 02 Feb 2011, edited 1 time in total.

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Lisa and the Virun VII Crest

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1627
Great job, AITT. :) Most of it I've already read in the other thread, but everything was sort of all over the place in there. It's great to have everything put together in one well written post like this. It's also helpful because people are more likely to see it and read it when it's in the one post, rather than sift through countless posts that might be off topic.

I happen to like this theory better than the other Lisa theories. Imo this one just has more evidence supporting it, and fewer loose ends than the others. Hell, I can't even think of any loose ends for this one. I guess I'm just not thinking hard enough...


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Lisa and the Virun VII Crest
     
         
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Missing since: 26 Mar 2010
Notes left: 1878
Last seen at: Los Angeles
Your ability to continually create thought provoking threads amazes me.

I certainly enjoyed reading this theory, and I think there are some really good points made. Really fantastic stuff, sir.
So many things about the crest I had never considered, in regards to the hospital... I love how these games keep on giving long after their time.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Lisa and the Virun VII Crest
     
         
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2010
Notes left: 2249
Last seen at: The Rabbit Hole
Hmmm....

I'm going to have to do a bit of reflection on the crest placements around the town, but so far, this theory is the only one that makes sense according to all the things presented in the games. I still kinda don't understand why she didn't have a visible parasite at the end, but I guess she hadn't completely degenerated yet. Maybe?

I'm also sorry a little sorry about being a bother. I kinda have a feeling that if I hadn't been questioning Adversary so hard, you wouldn't have thought to go through all this trouble.
Wait a minute. What am I saying? You people love to do stuff like this, don't you? :lol:

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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Lisa and the Virun VII Crest
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
Notes left: 11052
Last seen at: In the anals of forum history
I've wanted to do this for awhile, because I really like the idea and thought it deserved clarification.

Though I do appreciate being complimented for presentation, I must repeat that I did not create the theory itself. I only fleshed it out and organized it.

Quote:
I still kinda don't understand why she didn't have a visible parasite at the end, but I guess she hadn't completely degenerated yet. Maybe?


What I like best about this theory is that it doesn't require Lisa to have a parasite at any time. One can attribute her degeneration to her bond with the Crest, which may be permanent and irrevocable. Once it starts to break down, so does she.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Lisa and the Virun VII Crest

Missing since: 30 Jan 2011
Notes left: 84
I'm with you on this, I think you are right.
Aside of that, I think Lisa was killed before the events in SH1, and Alessa brought her soul to the Otherworld. I suppose that if Alessa have psyquic powers, and these interact with unkown and ancient magical forces of the region, it would make possible to Alessa to do so.
I don't think Valtiel would be resurrecting lisa as a crest which have been created in order to destroy the city and the possibility of god to born, it have been to be Alessa, is Lisa is a Metatron seal, or sort of.

I think Lisa bleeds, because when Alessa is depowered by the Flauros, she lost the little control she had put over Lisa, like losing some memories, and not being able of going out the hospital, or even the examination room, she remember everything, and she remember she died, and that is represented in massive bleeding. From that on she is free of moving through the Otherworld, as a ghost, of course. That's because she cames from the floor at the end, in order to get revenge on Kauffman. Also, she hadn't a parasite.


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 Post subject: Re: Lisa and the Virun VII Crest
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
Notes left: 11052
Last seen at: In the anals of forum history
Quote:
Aside of that, I think Lisa was killed before the events in SH1, and Alessa brought her soul to the Otherworld. I suppose that if Alessa have psyquic powers, and these interact with unkown and ancient magical forces of the region, it would make possible to Alessa to do so.


Possible or not, I don't see why Alessa would do it. It doesn't serve her purposes at all to resurrect/manifest a dead Lisa. Considering that Lisa gives Harry information vital to his progress, I certainly don't buy the idea that she's placed there by Alessa to distract or impede him.

If one assumes she's real, that messy little contradiction doesn't exist, and it eliminates the need to explain why Alessa bothers manifesting Lisa when no worthwhile purpose is apparent.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Lisa and the Virun VII Crest

Missing since: 30 Jan 2011
Notes left: 84
Regarding to Harry, yes, maybe you are right, I have not finished understsanding all my doubts in SH yet, but...

Man, who is the one spreading the Virun IIV all over the place? Is Alessa. If Lisa is a crest/keeper of it, how the fuck is other than Alessa bringing her? Plus, I don't see no other one who could have brought Lisa, nor any other one who would want Lisa stay there.

Regarding to Harry again, I think that maybe Alessa restricted some of the memory of Lisa, for different reasons, one protect her of the truth (her being dead) in order to her to "live" in the Otherworld, and because if Lisa don't recall anything about Alessa, the Order, she could no have help Harry. That what I think Alessa thought, but Lisa ended helping Harry anyway, even with her normal life memories, even without the Order ones. Maybe Alessa not could predict this. Anyway it was for good, Harry saved the day, you know.

And i do think Lisa is real, but is his soul what is brought to the Otherworld by Alessa, in my theory, because she is dead (possibly killed) before the actual evets of the game. If she isn't dead from the begining, ther is no point in her saying her famous phrase: "Now I know why I was the only one alive, and it is because I'm not alive at all, I'm the same as them".


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 Post subject: Re: Lisa and the Virun VII Crest
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
Notes left: 11052
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I'm having difficulty understanding some of what you're trying to say. I would suggest lessening the amounts of f-bombs you use, because it also makes you sound like you're perpetually enraged.

Quote:
If she isn't dead from the begining, ther is no point in her saying her famous phrase: "Now I know why I was the only one alive, and it is because I'm not alive at all, I'm the same as them".


The actual quote is "I get it now... Why I'm still alive even though everyone else is dead. I'm not the only one who's still walking around. I'm the same as them. I just hadn't noticed it before."

No matter how one interprets this, there's no logical way to derive from it that she was dead from the beginning. If that's what it meant, it would mean that the nurses and doctors were dead beforehand as well, and we know that's not true. Contrary to what Lisa says (after all, she can hardly be counted as fully-knowledgeable), being parasitized does not necessarily even result in death. Again, it happens to Cybil and she can survive it.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Lisa and the Virun VII Crest
     
         
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Missing since: 09 Jun 2010
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I actually really like this theory (even if it isn't yours) and it certainly cleared up some of the questions I had about this. Thanks for this.


Last edited by Trauma_ on 02 Feb 2011, edited 2 times in total.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Lisa and the Virun VII Crest
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
She is, in other worlds, reflecting the state of the [otherside].


Typo? But yea, great thread.

Quote:
Possible or not, I don't see why Alessa would do it. It doesn't serve her purposes at all to resurrect/manifest a dead Lisa. Considering that Lisa gives Harry information vital to his progress, I certainly don't buy the idea that she's placed there by Alessa to distract or impede him.

If one assumes she's real, that messy little contradiction doesn't exist, and it eliminates the need to explain why Alessa bothers manifesting Lisa when no worthwhile purpose is apparent.



While I like the idea and agree with it, I'm going to propose devil's advocate: If Alessa can unintentionally pull in a living Lisa, why can't she unconsciously create/summon a deceased Lisa? It's not like she has 100% control over things anyway.

Quote:
Man, who is the one spreading the Virun IIV all over the place? Is Alessa. If Lisa is a crest/keeper of it, how the fuck is other than Alessa bringing her? Plus, I don't see no other one who could have brought Lisa, nor any other one who would want Lisa stay there.


Did you....read....anything? The idea is that Lisa was pulled in like every other character, and wishing to "protect" her as much as she could, Alessa placed the Crest on her.

Quote:
If she isn't dead from the begining, ther is no point in her saying her famous phrase: "Now I know why I was the only one alive, and it is because I'm not alive at all, I'm the same as them".


You're right. Good thing she Never says this ever.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Lisa and the Virun VII Crest

Missing since: 30 Jan 2011
Notes left: 84
I have some doubts then:

Which is the most common thought regarding Alessa absorbing people in the Otherworld? I mean, it is intentionally, or she has no control about it? I used to think it was willingly, but now it make more sense she has no control.

We agree regarding that all the imagery we see in the Otherworld/Foggy world comes from Alessa, but she really created an entire paralel dimension, or it was there from the begining, transfigured in what we see because Alessa's mind? equeally to the Otherworld in SH2 existed before James, but it changed in order to recreate James's mind.

I still see the Lisa's situation like some type of sixth sense revelation, regaining her memory, when she visits the underground facility, remembering she was dead, and... dying, or becoming a ghost, (once again, but mora than ever).

Are you sure the entire staff of Alchemilla was dragged into the Otherworld, and attaqued by some rare alien criatures? I mean, One thing is some people missing from time to time, but an entire hospital, it would have caused massive investivations.


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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Lisa and the Virun VII Crest
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
Notes left: 11052
Last seen at: In the anals of forum history
Quote:
While I like the idea and agree with it, I'm going to propose devil's advocate: If Alessa can unintentionally pull in a living Lisa, why can't she unconsciously create/summon a deceased Lisa? It's not like she has 100% control over things anyway.


Everything else she manifests is pretty clearly not derived from any positive or pleasurable memories or feelings. If Lisa is a manifestation, she's anomalous in many ways.

Quote:
Which is the most common thought regarding Alessa absorbing people in the Otherworld? I mean, it is intentionally, or she has no control about it? I used to think it was willingly, but now it make more sense she has no control.


I think most believe she's some kind of chessmaster playing the monsters as pieces against Dahlia and her unwitting pawn. The actual evidence suggests nothing of the sort, however. There are a lot of common beliefs in this series that are actually just circulating misinformation. Such as Lisa being a murder victim (of Kaufmann, specifically).

Quote:
We agree regarding that all the imagery we see in the Otherworld/Foggy world comes from Alessa, but she really created an entire paralel dimension, or it was there from the begining, transfigured in what we see because Alessa's mind? equeally to the Otherworld in SH2 existed before James, but it changed in order to recreate James's mind.


It used to be that she was the onle who created the [otherside], but Origins seems to have other ideas on that.

Quote:
I still see the Lisa's situation like some type of sixth sense revelation, regaining her memory, when she visits the underground facility, remembering she was dead, and... dying, or becoming a ghost, (once again, but mora than ever).


I simply don't see how this really works, though. It means that Lisa is, essentially, something Alessa accidentally pooped out of her subconscious for no good reason, and is basically in the game to deliver a little bit of exposition to Harry and then die.

This theory explains her presence and actually attributes her a purpose, while really showing Alessa's otherwise merely implied gratitude.

Quote:
Are you sure the entire staff of Alchemilla was dragged into the Otherworld, and attaqued by some rare alien criatures? I mean, One thing is some people missing from time to time, but an entire hospital, it would have caused massive investivations.


No way to know exactly how many staff members fell prey to this (obviously, not every single staff member would ever be on duty simultaneously), but certainly, it was a fairly large number. Such an occurrence would have certainly raised an investigation, one would reasonably assume, and we're simply never told of it.

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Woodside Apartments Janitor
 Post subject: Re: Lisa and the Virun VII Crest
     
         
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Missing since: 21 May 2010
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Great post and explanation AITT....:).....i was under the impression that Alessa was keeping Lisa alive because she is the only one she remembers that truly cared for her and was protecting her from the chaos happening around her. Everything was broken down nicely here....I still only have one question regarding the Virun VII crest......did Lisa physically have it on her without her realizing it or was it something she had placed on her spiritually without her knowing about it, y'know like a mystical cloak or something.

I haven't played the game years, but Lisa is not aware that she is the holder of the crest correct?....also...Lisa is confused as to what is going on, but actually Alessa is keeping her safe by keeping her in that room....is that correct as well?.....Maybe you answered this above, but i'm not getting it, but hopefully you can answer this and break it down to my understanding...:)


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Lisa and the Virun VII Crest
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11383
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Quote:
Everything else she manifests is pretty clearly not derived from any positive or pleasurable memories or feelings. If Lisa is a manifestation, she's anomalous in many ways.


That's sort of a given, what with her sentience and all. Lisa is positive, but she was only pleasant during a horrible time in Alessa's life. Hypothetically speaking, she could be subconsciously called up for this very reason, either as a comfort or simply because Alessa's mind associates Lisa with suffering.

Quote:
Which is the most common thought regarding Alessa absorbing people in the Otherworld? I mean, it is intentionally, or she has no control about it? I used to think it was willingly, but now it make more sense she has no control.


It's pretty clear she didn't pull anyone in on purpose, since Alessa's motive is to commit suicide to prevent harming people. Why would she summon Dahlia there while A) Never harming her even though she could, and B) Running away from her?

Quote:
We agree regarding that all the imagery we see in the Otherworld/Foggy world comes from Alessa, but she really created an entire paralel dimension, or it was there from the begining, transfigured in what we see because Alessa's mind? equeally to the Otherworld in SH2 existed before James, but it changed in order to recreate James's mind.


It is implied that Silent Hill always had a neutral, spiritual power, and then Alessa sort of warped it and created the Otherworld. After she lost control of it, it sort of gained autonomy, and called out to people like James so that they could shape it.

Quote:
I haven't played the game years, but Lisa is not aware that she is the holder of the crest correct?....also...Lisa is confused as to what is going on, but actually Alessa is keeping her safe by keeping her in that room....is that correct as well?.....Maybe you answered this above, but i'm not getting it, but hopefully you can answer this and break it down to my understanding...


Correct.

Quote:
I still only have one question regarding the Virun VII crest......did Lisa physically have it on her without her realizing it or was it something she had placed on her spiritually without her knowing about it, y'know like a mystical cloak or something.


My personal theory is that it's like a mark on her shoulder or something, since the physical image seems necessary.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Lisa and the Virun VII Crest

Missing since: 30 Jan 2011
Notes left: 84
Mmm, ok, I read in this forum, some time ago about Kauffman killing Lisa prior to the game, and it made sense to me, because the images in the intro, Lisa seemingly being dead all the time, etc... But I have found people here, and in other forums that says about Lisa not being murdered, nor murderer by Kauffman, so now I'm open to believe she wasn't killed by Kauffman, but...

I still don't see why she died in the end if she wasn't dead before. Even with the crest and what not, if she was alive, why she dies? The crest kill her? Alessa would have known that the crest was going to kill her in that case?

It's right to assume the doctors and nurses aren't dead, because what happens with Cybil, but... The parasite in Cybil was there little time, it wasn't fully developed, maybe when the parasite pops out, it kills the host. Although I'm not sure, because the doctors and nurses makes noises of pain and suffering, so the appears to be alive... I'm starting to be confused.

Anyway I have ever believed the doctor and nurses were dead, some type of zombie you know, maybe Lisa thinks they are dead too, and because of that she says her famous phrase.
I don't understand her phrase if she was alive all the time, nor why she dies then.

About the doctors and nurses being real people, I supposed it couldn't be, because the outcomings and consequences in the real world, but how AITT said, maybe they just didn't mention them later. I believe now the nurses and doctors were real people. I have read in another forum that the nurses and doctors trapped in the otherworld were nurses and doctors working for the Order. It should make sense. The order should have doctors and nurses working for them in the hospital. You see few nurses, maybe was only the ones that worked for the Order, and they were absorbed because their relation with the Order, and with Alessa.

I now believe that Alessa has no control over the people that get trapped with her in the Otherworld, and I think, these people is the ones that share something in common with Alessa, or some of them, or the most important.
This don't contradict my theory of Lisa being a ghost all the time, because whe know ghots exist in Silent Hill, and its manifestations in the Otherworld is the same as the manifestations of a living person. (Mary at the end of Silent Hill 2).

I'm not sure yet, but I believe the Otherworld existed before Alessa, but the Otherworld has no form, it adopts the form given by the mind of whom enter it.

I have a doubt though, Alessa entered the Otherworld in purpouse, in order to seal the city, etc, right?


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Lisa and the Virun VII Crest
     
         
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2010
Notes left: 2249
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flipain wrote:
I still don't see why she died in the end if she wasn't dead before. Even with the crest and what not, if she was alive, why she dies? The crest kill her?


I believe it's being implied that Lisa's existence began to deteriorate because the crest was deteriorating when Nowhere converged.

Other than that, I'm not sure what else you were asking. :oops:

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Woodside Apartments Janitor
 Post subject: Re: Lisa and the Virun VII Crest
     
         
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flipain wrote:
It's right to assume the doctors and nurses aren't dead, because what happens with Cybil, but... The parasite in Cybil was there little time, it wasn't fully developed, maybe when the parasite pops out, it kills the host. Although I'm not sure, because the doctors and nurses makes noises of pain and suffering, so the appears to be alive... I'm starting to be confused.




I would say that they are alive, after all, the point of a parasitic organism is to survive off of a host body, generally in order for the parasite to be alive the host must be too.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Lisa and the Virun VII Crest

Missing since: 30 Jan 2011
Notes left: 84
Yeah, but there is parasites that kills their host. They are named Necrotrophs. And maybe the host is cinically dead, but, his body still lives, now under the control of the parasite.

Anyway, I think they are alive, but still thought about of them being dead before, maybe Lisa too.

What I was trying to say about the crest and Lisa is, if she is dead, and the seal somehow retains her alive, is logic to think that when the seal faills, she dies, but if she is alive anyway, then why is he going to die if the seal is removed? She should stay alive, but without the seal, not die.


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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Lisa and the Virun VII Crest

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1627
flipain wrote:
I still don't see why she died in the end if she wasn't dead before. Even with the crest and what not, if she was alive, why she dies? The crest kill her? Alessa would have known that the crest was going to kill her in that case?

The otherworld began to fall apart after the Flauros was used on Alessa, so I can only assume that the crests were damaged at/around the same time. If so, then the crest on Lisa would've been affected too, thus Lisa herself was affected.


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