Lisa was not murdered.

[SilentWren]

I still adamantly disagree. No other explanation is both consistent and logical with the rest of the narrative.

I'm just saying that she wasn't mindless and controlled like the other nurse monsters, and....Actually, I'd be more than happy to not start this whole cycle up again, considering I love the fact that people aren't sick of talking about the first game. This is nice. I don't wanna ruin it.

She was a young and impressionable teenager whereas he was an adult doctor who should know and act better. If he hadn't given her the drugs in the first place then she probably wouldn't have become addicted etc, and then probably wouldn't have eventually killed herself via overdose.

I don't disagree on any particular point you made, but at the very least, they both played a part. Lisa should've known not to get involved in a situation that serious and far over her head. I'm sure he coerced her, but she stuck around. It's not like he tied her up and forced her to take that first hit.

EDIT:

I'm not pretending she was a saint. I don't actually recall saying that she is, or that she's completely blameless. I'm merely explaining how and why Kaufmann was also responsible, thus giving a reason as to why she dragged him away at the end of the game. Doing so doesn't take away any of Lisa's responsibility or make her a blameless victim. She could have chosen other options, but she chose the easy way out.

Ok, that's better.

[WelcomeToNowhere]

I like this idea that Lisa was really in the Otherworld, and not just a projection of Alessa's. It means that Harry got to be friends with a real, relatively nice person, as opposed to a figment of someone else's imagination. It also makes me sad, though, that she was dead the whole time, and her soul or ghost was trapped in the Otherworld. Drugs will fuck you up, for srs. Kaufmann was partially at fault, for deliberately introducing a highly addictive drug to an impressionably naive girl with the intent of making her a coke-whore.

Also, whoever keeps saying suicide is the easy way out? Trust me implicitly when I say, from personal experience, that it is never easy. Not for you, and not for anyone else.

[alone in the town]

I like this idea that Lisa was really in the Otherworld, and not just a projection of Alessa's. It means that Harry got to be friends with a real, relatively nice person, as opposed to a figment of someone else's imagination. It also makes me sad, though, that she was dead the whole time, and her soul or ghost was trapped in the Otherworld. Drugs will fuck you up, for srs. Kaufmann was partially at fault, for deliberately introducing a highly addictive drug to an impressionably naive girl with the intent of making her a coke-whore.

I've liked that idea, too. There was a theory made by F? which was what I accepted until now. It's too bad because this seems less satisfying by comparison.

Also, whoever keeps saying suicide is the easy way out? Trust me implicitly when I say, from personal experience, that it is never easy. Not for you, and not for anyone else.

It doesn't mean that suicide is an easy thing to do, but that for some people, suicide appears an easier alternative to overcoming problems which appear to have no solution to someone who is depressed and suffering from chronic stress and/or anxiety. If a person convinces herself of this, it can be very hard to refuse.

[AuraTwilight]

Lisa died of an overdose shortly before SILENT HILL began.

However, it is possible her spirit, or whatever it is, the Lisa we see in the game, was parasitized like the other doctors and nurses. I find it entirely unlikely that Lisa in-game is a manifestation of Alessa. It doesn't add up in the slightest.

I suspect she overdosed at home, probably after writing her last diary entry, "Need drug," and, like the others who were drawn into Alessa's Otherworld, found herself in the hospital, like Lisa says. The fact is that everybody we encounter in SILENT HILL is a real person, the doctors and nurses included, and so I find it ridiculous to assume Lisa happens to be anything else. Granted, she's dead before the game begins, but, as SILENT HILL 3 illustrates, ghosts can find themselves trapped in the Otherworld as well.

My general stance is that instead of being a ghost, Lisa has a "construct body" to house her consciousness, since she doesn't really seem consistent with any of the other ghosts we see in the Silent Hill series. It also seems clear that Alessa is influencing Lisa's thoughts, deliberately or unintentionally, and the breakdown of her body certainly seems to coincide with Alessa losing what little control she had of everything, instead of a coincidentally timed "parasite acting up lololol."

I'm personally unconvinced of the supposed elegance of Lisa being parasitized, since she's so vastly different from every demonstrated case and has very little in common with them.

[Soulless-Shadow]

She was a young and impressionable teenager whereas he was an adult doctor who should know and act better. If he hadn't given her the drugs in the first place then she probably wouldn't have become addicted etc, and then probably wouldn't have eventually killed herself via overdose.

I don't disagree on any particular point you made, but at the very least, they both played a part. Lisa should've known not to get involved in a situation that serious and far over her head. I'm sure he coerced her, but she stuck around. It's not like he tied her up and forced her to take that first hit.

Judging from Origins Lisa wasn't coerced into anything. In fact, she seemed quite happy to take part in everything. Nevertheless, Kaufmann was an adult and a doctor to boot, so he should be held even more accountable for introducing her to drugs than she is for taking them in the first place. As a doctor he had a responsibility to help people, whereas Lisa was a dumb teenager. Very few teenagers have the maturity to not get themselves involved in such serious situations, let alone know how to get out of them.
Having said that, to ensure there won't be another misunderstanding or people putting words in my mouth I should add; even though I do believe Kaufmann is more to blame when it comes to introducing Lisa to drugs, that still doesn't diminish Lisa's part in the whole thing. She could have got out of the hospital and away from Kaufmann, and she could have got help with her drug problem, but she didn't. So, she's also responsible.

I'm not pretending she was a saint. I don't actually recall saying that she is, or that she's completely blameless. I'm merely explaining how and why Kaufmann was also responsible, thus giving a reason as to why she dragged him away at the end of the game. Doing so doesn't take away any of Lisa's responsibility or make her a blameless victim. She could have chosen other options, but she chose the easy way out.

Ok, that's better.

Don't take this the wrong way because I don't mean to be rude, but how is that better? I thought it was pretty obvious that I wasn't saying Kaufmann was solely to blame. Sure, I didn't explicitly state that she was or wasn't responsible for her own actions, but I didn't think that was really necessary considering we just got confirmation she overdosed herself, without Kaufmann actually being there to force her to take the drugs or injecting/whatevering them into her himself.

Also, whoever keeps saying suicide is the easy way out? Trust me implicitly when I say, from personal experience, that it is never easy. Not for you, and not for anyone else.

Because killing oneself is far easier than facing the pain of life and actively doing what needs to be done to change and make life worth living. Sure, neither are without pain and suffering, but taking an overdose would still be a lot easier than going to rehab and changing her life. It is the easy way out because they don't have to go through all that. As for it being hard one others; some suicidal people think their loved ones will be better off without them, or they don't think of the pain their death would cause others at all. Either way, they're not around to experience it, so for them it is the easy way out. Hell, for many it seems to be the only way out.

[Mephisto]

I'm not pretending she was a saint. I don't actually recall saying that she is, or that she's completely blameless.

First off, when I aim to write a thing to someone I use an arrow, the quote function or specify the username of the one who I wish to write to. My post was for whoever wanted to read and comment on it. You give yourself far too much credit.

With that being said, I'm not going to bother to take the "putting words in my mouth" line in another post of yours as a (in)direct message to me.

[WelcomeToNowhere]

@Soulless-Shadow: it's not about making a change being "hard" or "difficult," it's about reaching a level of despair so far down that you feel like you've run out of options. You have no-one to turn to, the people you DO turn to are dismissive of your problems or blame you for them, and if you try to run, your problems will follow you everywhere you go.

I seriously doubt Lisa wanted to kill herself, but being surrounded by pain and death all day, every day, hopelessly addicted to a rare drug and enslaved to the only people who can provide it, and tormented by frequent psychotic breaks from reality when she tries to quit--it all adds up to a situation with no escapes and no respites, save one. It was probably the hardest choice she ever had to make, not the easiest.

[SilentWren]

Don't take this the wrong way because I don't mean to be rude, but how is that better?

Nah, we're cool. I didn't see that last post of yours when I made my reply, and I was just trying to say that you clarified it enough that I understood what you meant. I get what you're saying now.

He was a controlling ass, and she was weak. Boom.

[Typographenia]

. . . For anyone thinking they're serious.

I was really sad because I thought you believed I was serious. : P

[Augophthalmoses]

Yeah, I had always figured Kaufmann had likely killed her so as not have her potentially expose the operations of the cult as a result of her wanting to quit her nursing position. Which made sense when you thought back on all the memos that explained the cult murdering the mayor and Officer Gucci. I also think it would made Lisa's revenge on Kaufmann in the Good endings more significant in addition to making Kaufmann seem much more devious, but oh well. Nothing to complain about really.

But it certainly makes you rethink the entries in Lisa's diary.

[WelcomeToNowhere]

^Hmm, makes sense, I suppose. It would have been fairly easy for Dr. Kaufmann to spike her drugs with something extra that would react badly with her and kill her, or perhaps he distilled it into an overly-purified form that, when the same amount is taken as the regular stuff, would cause an overdose.

[The Adversary]

. . . .

Or she was a schizophrenic 23-year-old who wanted out of her miserable life and killed herself.

[SilentWren]

^That.

Is anyone else happy that the strange overdose scene in SM has an explanation now too?

[Squarehead]

Can someone post an actual quote. My browser shows gibberish.

Drug dealers are not responsible for the people who use drugs to kill themselves, or if they inadvertently overdose on that drug. With Lisa's overdose, M.K. is not culpable for her death. He's responsible for giving her the drugs, but that's about it.

When Ali killed herself, I didn't blame the doctor who gave her the drugs.

You must really hate Breaking Bad.

[The Adversary]

>Can someone post an actual quote. My browser shows gibberish.<
I seemed to have lost it.

>You must really hate Breaking Bad.<
No, I don't. Ali killed herself with prescription drugs, not illegal drugs.

[Augophthalmoses]

^That.

Is anyone else happy that the strange overdose scene in SM has an explanation now too?

Yeah, it seems a little less random in retrospect.

[Squarehead]

>You must really hate Breaking Bad.<
No, I don't. Ali killed herself with prescription drugs, not illegal drugs.

I was referring to your view on where the responsibilitity lies with illegal drug related deaths, which would seem to render most of the show pointless for you.

[paladin181]

Kaufmann's actual responsibility in Lisa's death aside, it doesn't mean she doesn't FEEL like he's responsible for it. He started her on the drugs and got her assigned to Alessa. In her head, this could be all his fault.