Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)

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Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)

Post by Kenji »

The Siren series could actually be taken as evidence that Toyama did intend an endless timeloop through the Next Fear mechanic, since more than a few of his later characters would go through the same basic thing.

But considering that Siren and Silent Hill are distinct, can that interpretation really be anything more than a thought experiment? I suppose that if Tillerman (as I interpret his argument) is correct, then we're free to assign any interpretation we please on any piece of fiction, interactive or otherwise, because it's all varying degrees of unreal, anyway.

Though, just for shits and giggles, if someone wrote a historical fiction novel taking place in the American Civil War, is the reader then free to refuse the interpretation that President Lincoln was assassinated, or is his interpretive agency limited solely to the unreal characteristics of the story?

However, an interpretation like this does run afoul of two things:

1) Realism. The Harry Potter series may take place in a magical alter-Britain with unreal geometries, a fantasy history, and fantastic powers, but it's ultimately couched in the behavior of boarding school students and resident faculty, which (I must assume) bears some reasonable resemblance to real analogues. It's a stretch to say the story would work otherwise, or have attained such a following, without that anchor that the reader can seize upon.

So, I suppose I could insist that, even without the Aglaophotis, Cybil could simply take to the skies like a Z Senshi before Harry lands the final blow, sending an audio and visual hallucination as she does to convince him (in an uncharacteristically cruel fashion) that he did actually kill her. I suppose nothing stops me from doing so, if I'm willing to abandon everything I know about the characters presented so far.

Sure, there's no law, natural or manmade, that prevents me from doing this. That said, I can't help but wonder how I can possibly interface with a community (say, this one... and this is point 2) The Social Aspect) in a serious manner if all I do is insist that Cybil's ki-powered flight is my interpretation and nobody can stop me from taking it. What, then, was the point of my talking about it, in the first place? Is it to convince others that this is a legitimate interpretation? Is it to burnish my own interpretation and temper it in the flames of others' disapproval?

I, for one, don't think the alternative scenario is as simple as presented.
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Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)

Post by Tillerman »

Ryantology wrote:It's not that I wish to ignore it, it's just that, considering his relationship to the series, and all of the rest of the evidence, and the fact that his opinion was never explained or justified, it simply isn't very important.
I'm sorry that I can't agree with this. Considering his relationship to the series, that he is the original writer of the game and the one who Owaku listened to when considering Cybil's fate in the 3rd game, I think his opinion should be strongly valued. And personally, I don't think he owes us any explanation. I am not personally bothered by any inconsistencies the the Good+ ending, and I'm not even sure I agree that they are actually inconsistencies. Even if I did agree with that, I'd still defer to Toyama's opinion, as well Owaku, Ito, and even Yamaoka. I'd value what they all have to say, regardless.

It feels like you're trying to downplay his statement because of your bias against the Good+ ending. And that's fine... it's okay to have a bias. You're entitled to your own point of view. But it's also okay for other people to have a different point of view. It bothers me when people try to take their own interpretation and ram it down the throats of others. Not that I'm accusing you of doing that... but other people in this thread are. And that's what I find that really bothersome.
Trauma_ wrote: Put your money where your mouth is and demonstrate how then.

Because the likelihood of a guy using a recreational narcotic (to his knowledge) on someone trying to kill him is very close to 0. And yes, unfortunately for you fiction does work that way. This isn't something you can explain away so simply.
Remember, we're not arguing about whether Cybil is "dead" or not. She's fictional, the correct answer is that she never existed. Rather, what you're arguing about is whether the Good+ ending path, taken as canon, should be considered "good writing." And obviously, your answer to that is no. I disagree.

Stop being so aggressive with your opinion. Stop trying to ram it down our throats.
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Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)

Post by alone in the town »

Tillerman wrote:I'm sorry that I can't agree with this. Considering his relationship to the series, that he is the original writer of the game and the one who Owaku listened to when considering Cybil's fate in the 3rd game, I think his opinion should be strongly valued. And personally, I don't think he owes us any explanation. I am not personally bothered by any inconsistencies the the Good+ ending, and I'm not even sure I agree that they are actually inconsistencies. Even if I did agree with that, I'd still defer to Toyama's opinion, as well Owaku, Ito, and even Yamaoka. I'd value what they all have to say, regardless.
Fine, but which of Toyama's opinions do we accept? Which of Ito's? They aren't consistent.
It feels like you're trying to downplay his statement because of your bias against the Good+ ending. And that's fine... it's okay to have a bias. You're entitled to your own point of view. But it's also okay for other people to have a different point of view. It bothers me when people try to take their own interpretation and ram it down the throats of others. Not that I'm accusing you of doing that... but other people in this thread are. And that's what I find that really bothersome.
I'm downplaying it for several reasons: it's contradicted by other evidence, he was involved in only this game, and he has changed his mind on this at least once. I'm biased against Good+ in the same way, and for mostly the same reasons, that I'm biased against Bad or Bad+ being the canon ending.

But, ultimately, our disagreement lies in what each of us thinks is important criteria to judge the value of fiction.
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Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)

Post by Trauma_ »

Tillerman wrote:
Trauma_ wrote: Put your money where your mouth is and demonstrate how then.

Because the likelihood of a guy using a recreational narcotic (to his knowledge) on someone trying to kill him is very close to 0. And yes, unfortunately for you fiction does work that way. This isn't something you can explain away so simply.
Remember, we're not arguing about whether Cybil is "dead" or not. She's fictional, the correct answer is that she never existed. Rather, what you're arguing about is whether the Good+ ending path, taken as canon, should be considered "good writing." And obviously, your answer to that is no. I disagree.

Stop being so aggressive with your opinion. Stop trying to ram it down our throats.
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Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)

Post by Tillerman »

Ryantology wrote:Fine, but which of Toyama's opinions do we accept? Which of Ito's? They aren't consistent.
Yes, you're absolutely right. I think which one we accept is up to us.

It's interesting that Toyama has decided to change his mind on it, but I actually think that's cool... it feels in the spirit of the series. They've always liked leaving things for the player to decide. With that statement, it's almost as if Toyama is saying "decide for yourself."
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Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)

Post by Its Gone Now »

Tillerman wrote:Remember, we're not arguing about whether Cybil is "dead" or not. She's fictional, the correct answer is that she never existed. Rather, what you're arguing about is whether the Good+ ending path, taken as canon, should be considered "good writing." And obviously, your answer to that is no. I disagree.
But that is precisely what a lot of people are arguing, you are saying she can't be dead because she is fictional. I do not believe anyone is under any delusions or interpretations that Silent Hill is not fictional.

The discussion is whether the game makers have implied that she was killed in the story or not.

She never existed in real life, sure... But in the fiction of SH she does and that is the context in which people are discussing, saying that she is fictional and therefore not real does not prove anyone's point either way... it is moot as we all know this.

When I said she may not be real I was referring to the fact that she could have existed completely in Harry's mind like people have suggested about some other characters throughout the series.

None of the characters in SH are real as it is all fiction, so when people say that she is dead you know what they mean dude I think you're just being a bit silly :D (they mean the CHARACTER did not survive the events of the story).

Any Fictional characters can be killed off Brother.
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Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)

Post by Tillerman »

Its Gone Now wrote:None of the characters in SH are real as it is all fiction, so when people say that she is dead you know what they mean dude I think you're just being a bit silly :D (they mean the CHARACTER did not survive the events of the story).

Any Fictional characters can be killed off Brother.
I'm not saying she can't be killed off within the fiction.

There's basically 2 discussions going on here. 1. Is she dead or not. That's an issue of what is canon, in other words what is the "official" truth. On that issue, the only thing that matters is what the creators think. Since they've gone on record to address it directly, those statements are much more important than anything else.

2. Is the Good+ ending logically consistent or not. We have no evidence that this point has swayed their opinion about Cybil's fate, and we know for a fact that Toyama isn't bothered by any logical consistencies with the Good+ ending. So this is a separate issue, about whether people like the Good+ ending as a piece of fiction writing or not. Some people are playing favorites with the creators quotes on the basis of which ending they like better.
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Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)

Post by Its Gone Now »

Tillerman wrote:
Its Gone Now wrote:None of the characters in SH are real as it is all fiction, so when people say that she is dead you know what they mean dude I think you're just being a bit silly :D (they mean the CHARACTER did not survive the events of the story).

Any Fictional characters can be killed off Brother.
I'm not saying she can't be killed off within the fiction.

There's basically 2 discussions going on here. 1. Is she dead or not. That's an issue of what is canon, in other words what is the "official" truth. On that issue, the only thing that matters is what the creators think. Since they've gone on record to address it directly, those statements are much more important than anything else.

2. Is the Good+ ending logically consistent or not. We have no evidence that this point has swayed their opinion about Cybil's fate, and we know for a fact that Toyama isn't bothered by any logical consistencies with the Good+ ending. So this is a separate issue, about whether people like the Good+ ending as a piece of fiction writing or not. Some people are playing favorites with the creators quotes on the basis of which ending they like better.
Don't worry dude I know these things, I was merely pointing out that the fact that Cybil is a fictional character is irrelevant to the debate, that's all. :D
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Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)

Post by I, Rabbit »

I never really understood why people believe that the good+ ending is Canon. After reading this entire thread and nodding along to agreeable points on both sides, I thought I'd throw my two cents in. Forgive me if I get anything wrong, I haven't played sh 1 for a good many years, but Google and this thread can certainly help me to refresh my memory.

In my mind, Cybil was never really a major character in the game and was made more major by the movie adaption, so if she was alive or not is irrelevant, as Harry didn't seem fit to mention her in his notes, not even one single sentence about the cop he met. His notes in 3 serve a singular purpose only; to inform heather of dahlia and alessa and the whole birthing of God. Nobody else is necessary to be mentioned, so people saying that the writer's/developer's should have placed a memo in 3 confirming whether she is indeed dead or not is irrelevant.

Now, in regards to the ending. I have to agree that it really does make no sense for Harry to use the Aglaophotis on cybil, regardless of the character of the man. He wouldn't even of had the time to think about it. In the same situation, (let's for a second forget that sh is a work of fiction and place ourselves in Harry's shoes at that point, with Harry's knowledge up to that point), most people would not instinctively reach for the odd red liquid and proceed to throw it upon not only the writhing woman, but a police officer at that. They'd have no clue if the liquid itself would even help in that situation. What if it had been acid? Devil spit? Indigestion medicine? No, cybil at that point in most people's minds, is a goner. Even thinking of helping her is a forgone conclusion, because the red liquid would not be at the forefront of your mind.
In this argument also, for those that believe Harry instinctively knew the Aglaophotis would help in this situation, I don't believe that Harry would waste something so precious. He wasn't to know the events of the final battle at the time, if his brain had told him to pick this odd liquid up, his brain would also be telling him not to waste it. Cybil is gone, don't try and save her. She was a nice woman, but my daughter is my main priority, and if I use this now, what if I could have used it later?
Though imo that whole thought process is irrelevant because I really don't think he would have thought of it at the time.
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Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)

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I, Rabbit wrote:In my mind, Cybil was never really a major character in the game and was made more major by the movie adaption, so if she was alive or not is irrelevant, as Harry didn't seem fit to mention her in his notes, not even one single sentence about the cop he met. His notes in 3 serve a singular purpose only; to inform heather of dahlia and alessa and the whole birthing of God. Nobody else is necessary to be mentioned, so people saying that the writer's/developer's should have placed a memo in 3 confirming whether she is indeed dead or not is irrelevant.
Exactly. It's a quick way for them to clue the audience that is unfamiliar with SH1 to get what they need, not to tie up loose ends with ancillary characters.
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Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)

Post by DinoNerd89 »

I, Rabbit wrote: 30 Jan 2015

In my mind, Cybil was never really a major character in the game and was made more major by the movie adaption, so if she was alive or not is irrelevant, as Harry didn't seem fit to mention her in his notes, not even one single sentence about the cop he met. His notes in 3 serve a singular purpose only; to inform heather of dahlia and alessa and the whole birthing of God. Nobody else is necessary to be mentioned, so people saying that the writer's/developer's should have placed a memo in 3 confirming whether she is indeed dead or not is irrelevant.

I kinda agree, because IMO, regardless of her current status, not getting a mention in 3, made sense. It wasn't vital to THAT particular story whether she was alive or dead, and knowing so probably wouldn't of made too much difference, other than people going "hooray" or "well shit" if it would of went either way. It was a focus on Heather, and to a lesser extent, Harry filling her in on the craziness, through notes and stuff. Cybil being mentioned doesn't help Heather stay alive( maybe she could of called her for backup, but what normal person like Cybil wants to go through THAT experience again though?).


I think the right call, at that particular time. Maybe in a future installment, who knows?
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Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)

Post by Burning Man »

Tillerman wrote:2. Is the Good+ ending logically consistent or not.
For what it's worth, I think Good+ is logically consistent. The main reason some people find it to the contrary is because of the fore-knowledge that Harry would need to save Cybil. It's understandable, but it neglects a major characteristics that make the Silent Hill series what it is: namely, iterations and loops. Technically, we don't know how many iterations Harry went through for his best intended outcome. He does look bewildered in the Good ending. Perhaps he wanted to try again for a better outcome.

Silent Hill 2 at least has a fan theory that James may have gone through all four endings in different iterations. In comparison, fans of Silent Hill 3 mostly seem to have centered around the Normal ending being the one true ending. One of reasons given is that the Normal ending in the only ending you can acquire in your first playthrough. This is rather unfortunate as the creators made a conscious effort to tie Loads and Continues to resurrection and reincarnation.

Silent Hill 3 actually did something interesting with regards to the Aglaophotis. Although the herb has exorcism properties, the endings of Silent Hill did not show the expected effect: Incubus was born and it was pissed. If this was Harry's sole experience of seeing the effects of the red substance, I imagine he would have had reservations about giving the tablet to Heather.

Viewers may have noticed that when Heather ingests the tablet, the scene that follows is rather similar to Cybil's scene at the carousel. There's even a follow-up scene where respective protagonists make motions to stomp on the critter. This is an interesting take when you consider that several scenes in Silent Hill 3 are designed to mirror their Silent Hill 1 counterparts, what with history repeating and all that. With the Good ending though, Harry saving Cybil would have never happened so the impact would be lost.

Speaking of Keiichiro Toyama, he is also the creator of the Siren series. In the first game, the characters are in loops; in the second game, everything that can happen, does happen in a parallel universe. If Toyama retrospectively considers Good+ to be the true ending of Silent Hill 1, I think his work on the Siren series may have had an impact.
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Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)

Post by alone in the town »

For what it's worth, I think Good+ is logically consistent. The main reason some people find it to the contrary is because of the fore-knowledge that Harry would need to save Cybil. It's understandable, but it neglects a major characteristics that make the Silent Hill series what it is: namely, iterations and loops. Technically, we don't know how many iterations Harry went through for his best intended outcome. He does look bewildered in the Good ending. Perhaps he wanted to try again for a better outcome.
For whatever it's worth, in the *checks watch* nine years since I last had an opinion on this subject, considering the implications of the characters being trapped in a loop has made the concept grow on me a lot, and I am willing to accept this as a logical means to fire Good+ out of the canon. I will reiterate, though, that if the writers had done anything to clue us in, even in some obtuse way, that we (and Harry, the character) should do this, with that, right then and there, it never would have been a debate at all.
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Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)

Post by The Adversary »

I'm glad looping is being discussed in terms of SILENT HILL now (again). I think it's worth a talk.

However, while I like the idea, I don't necessarily think the characters are stuck in a loop. I think they get stuck in (very) unfortunate circumstances and are forced to live it out. Kinda like the rest of us—that's life, right? And then we, as players, get to play it out again if it's not to our liking. Any of us could get any ending and then turn the system off, never to come back to it again, as—I would imagine—a lot of casual gamers did back in '99. I'm not sure we get that luxury.

Retroactively using Toyama's Siren as evidence for a loop thing doesn't really bode well for the Silent Hill series. That means any creator from the series, past and present, who has an idea after-the-fact is just as important as the creators of the games themselves. And that doesn't really work. Especially for those of us who have never played any of those games.

I mean, Akira Yamaoka did the soundtracks for Contra games. Does that mean Contra is in the same universe as Silent Hill. . . ?
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Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)

Post by alone in the town »

I accept the concept of looping experience to be the only way Good+ makes any sense narratively. I don't love it, and I still don't really care for that ending. I never even cared that much about Cybil as a character or felt any extraordinary urge to save her, you spend literally five entire minutes in her company before that encounter.

Now, with Silent Hill 2, on the other hand, I believe much more strongly that James may experience his nightmare over and over again. Not only does it provide the most satisfying resolution to the argument over which ending is canon (none of 'em!), it also lends itself well to the concept of hell being not just suffering, but endless and pointless suffering, which either may be broken if the penitent finally does things the right way, or reinforced by continuing to repeat the punishment even if the penitent learns from the experience and does things right. The idea here makes sense internally as well as on a meta level.

I don't like applying this to the first game quite so much, because Harry isn't in hell because of anything he did wrong. Honestly, I like the Bad ending most out of them all, if Harry is actually being forced to endure all that over and over again. It's the one really unique outcome, and it forces you to entirely re-evaluate everything that actually happens. It actually lends itself well to the exercise of interpreting everything and everyone's actions in more circuitous and metaphorical ways. Honestly, I kind of wish they never made a direct sequel, because I would be a Bad ending stan. Maybe I will be, anyway. Fuck canon. : )
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Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)

Post by Jonipoon »

For all it's worth, we've only seen true looping in P.T.; where the protagonist is fully aware of its effects and uses the power of looping to progress further.

You could argue that restarting Silent Hill, for example, and achieving the Bad ending instead of the Bad+ ending is an example of "looping" but in that case ANY video game with multiple endings could be considered having "loops" for its character. If the experiences gained from looping is only attributed to the player, not the character, it's not looping - it's just you replaying a game making different decisions compared to last time.

Now, what would've been REALLY interesting in terms of true looping in storytelling, would be a game where the protagonist is acknowledging the fact that things are happening for a second or third time. Imagine restarting SH3 after having just completed it the first time, and then Heather wakes up in the Happy Burger joint feeling confused "What? What am I doing here?" and then running into Douglas asking him what's going on. Douglas would of course be shocked as to why Heather knows his name, and the story would transpire in new directions from there on. A different take on it would be that everytime Heather dies in the game, you don't respawn at your last save but rather at the Happy Burger joint in the beginning - and Heather acknowledges it.
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Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)

Post by alone in the town »

You could argue that restarting Silent Hill, for example, and achieving the Bad ending instead of the Bad+ ending is an example of "looping" but in that case ANY video game with multiple endings could be considered having "loops" for its character. If the experiences gained from looping is only attributed to the player, not the character, it's not looping - it's just you replaying a game making different decisions compared to last time.
Yeah, this is why I accept it grudgingly as a means to explain an ending in the first game that I don't particularly think works any other way. But, for the second, I feel that a looping experience, while maybe not necessarily the intent of the writers, is a good fit both thematically and as a reflection of how the game is designed to keep you engaged. I don't even find it unsatisfying that James may never escape or learn anything from his experience, because, for sure, we learn a lot from it. An eternal torment and a lack of resolution doesn't feel out of place at all. I don't know, I just can't help but love the whole thing more seeing it through this lens. As far as I am concerned, stanning for a single ending is missing the point.
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Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)

Post by Jonipoon »

My only issue with that is how it diminishes stories with actual looping; films such as Groundhog Day and Edge of Tomorrow for example, where the protagonist's gained experience from loops is unmistakenly shared with us, the watchers. One could of course argue that video games belong to a different type of medium where you're an actual "participant" rather than a watcher, and therefore the player's gained experience when respawning or starting a new game should quality as a form of looping. I rest my case though.

At one hand, the Silent Hill games has always been very subtle with how their in-game universes work, so if looping is intentionally part of the characters' realities it's not something that would be super obvious. On the other hand, I just don't see that much evidence for it when examining the characters' own reactions.
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Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)

Post by Burning Man »

It's not just looping, though. The concept allows the player to go forward in time, too. With enough creativity, this could be used to explain Walter's superposition of having committed suicide by spoon in the prison and being in Room 302 a few days later alive and well to perform the Assumption ritual.
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Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)

Post by alone in the town »

My only issue with that is how it diminishes stories with actual looping; films such as Groundhog Day and Edge of Tomorrow for example, where the protagonist's gained experience from loops is unmistakenly shared with us, the watchers.
I can't agree that exploring a concept from a different angle diminishes anything any other work attempted to do with the same concept.
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