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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2007
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The Siren series could actually be taken as evidence that Toyama did intend an endless timeloop through the Next Fear mechanic, since more than a few of his later characters would go through the same basic thing.

But considering that Siren and Silent Hill are distinct, can that interpretation really be anything more than a thought experiment? I suppose that if Tillerman (as I interpret his argument) is correct, then we're free to assign any interpretation we please on any piece of fiction, interactive or otherwise, because it's all varying degrees of unreal, anyway.

Though, just for shits and giggles, if someone wrote a historical fiction novel taking place in the American Civil War, is the reader then free to refuse the interpretation that President Lincoln was assassinated, or is his interpretive agency limited solely to the unreal characteristics of the story?

However, an interpretation like this does run afoul of two things:

1) Realism. The Harry Potter series may take place in a magical alter-Britain with unreal geometries, a fantasy history, and fantastic powers, but it's ultimately couched in the behavior of boarding school students and resident faculty, which (I must assume) bears some reasonable resemblance to real analogues. It's a stretch to say the story would work otherwise, or have attained such a following, without that anchor that the reader can seize upon.

So, I suppose I could insist that, even without the Aglaophotis, Cybil could simply take to the skies like a Z Senshi before Harry lands the final blow, sending an audio and visual hallucination as she does to convince him (in an uncharacteristically cruel fashion) that he did actually kill her. I suppose nothing stops me from doing so, if I'm willing to abandon everything I know about the characters presented so far.

Sure, there's no law, natural or manmade, that prevents me from doing this. That said, I can't help but wonder how I can possibly interface with a community (say, this one... and this is point 2) The Social Aspect) in a serious manner if all I do is insist that Cybil's ki-powered flight is my interpretation and nobody can stop me from taking it. What, then, was the point of my talking about it, in the first place? Is it to convince others that this is a legitimate interpretation? Is it to burnish my own interpretation and temper it in the flames of others' disapproval?

I, for one, don't think the alternative scenario is as simple as presented.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
Notes left: 1446
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Ryantology wrote:
It's not that I wish to ignore it, it's just that, considering his relationship to the series, and all of the rest of the evidence, and the fact that his opinion was never explained or justified, it simply isn't very important.


I'm sorry that I can't agree with this. Considering his relationship to the series, that he is the original writer of the game and the one who Owaku listened to when considering Cybil's fate in the 3rd game, I think his opinion should be strongly valued. And personally, I don't think he owes us any explanation. I am not personally bothered by any inconsistencies the the Good+ ending, and I'm not even sure I agree that they are actually inconsistencies. Even if I did agree with that, I'd still defer to Toyama's opinion, as well Owaku, Ito, and even Yamaoka. I'd value what they all have to say, regardless.

It feels like you're trying to downplay his statement because of your bias against the Good+ ending. And that's fine... it's okay to have a bias. You're entitled to your own point of view. But it's also okay for other people to have a different point of view. It bothers me when people try to take their own interpretation and ram it down the throats of others. Not that I'm accusing you of doing that... but other people in this thread are. And that's what I find that really bothersome.

Trauma_ wrote:
Put your money where your mouth is and demonstrate how then.

Because the likelihood of a guy using a recreational narcotic (to his knowledge) on someone trying to kill him is very close to 0. And yes, unfortunately for you fiction does work that way. This isn't something you can explain away so simply.


Remember, we're not arguing about whether Cybil is "dead" or not. She's fictional, the correct answer is that she never existed. Rather, what you're arguing about is whether the Good+ ending path, taken as canon, should be considered "good writing." And obviously, your answer to that is no. I disagree.

Stop being so aggressive with your opinion. Stop trying to ram it down our throats.

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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
Notes left: 11052
Last seen at: In the anals of forum history
Tillerman wrote:
I'm sorry that I can't agree with this. Considering his relationship to the series, that he is the original writer of the game and the one who Owaku listened to when considering Cybil's fate in the 3rd game, I think his opinion should be strongly valued. And personally, I don't think he owes us any explanation. I am not personally bothered by any inconsistencies the the Good+ ending, and I'm not even sure I agree that they are actually inconsistencies. Even if I did agree with that, I'd still defer to Toyama's opinion, as well Owaku, Ito, and even Yamaoka. I'd value what they all have to say, regardless.


Fine, but which of Toyama's opinions do we accept? Which of Ito's? They aren't consistent.

Quote:
It feels like you're trying to downplay his statement because of your bias against the Good+ ending. And that's fine... it's okay to have a bias. You're entitled to your own point of view. But it's also okay for other people to have a different point of view. It bothers me when people try to take their own interpretation and ram it down the throats of others. Not that I'm accusing you of doing that... but other people in this thread are. And that's what I find that really bothersome.


I'm downplaying it for several reasons: it's contradicted by other evidence, he was involved in only this game, and he has changed his mind on this at least once. I'm biased against Good+ in the same way, and for mostly the same reasons, that I'm biased against Bad or Bad+ being the canon ending.

But, ultimately, our disagreement lies in what each of us thinks is important criteria to judge the value of fiction.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 09 Jun 2010
Notes left: 494
Tillerman wrote:
Trauma_ wrote:
Put your money where your mouth is and demonstrate how then.

Because the likelihood of a guy using a recreational narcotic (to his knowledge) on someone trying to kill him is very close to 0. And yes, unfortunately for you fiction does work that way. This isn't something you can explain away so simply.


Remember, we're not arguing about whether Cybil is "dead" or not. She's fictional, the correct answer is that she never existed. Rather, what you're arguing about is whether the Good+ ending path, taken as canon, should be considered "good writing." And obviously, your answer to that is no. I disagree.

Stop being so aggressive with your opinion. Stop trying to ram it down our throats.

It's called being straight forward. If that leaves a caustic taste in your mouth, that's just too bad.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
Notes left: 1446
Last seen at: Chicago
Ryantology wrote:
Fine, but which of Toyama's opinions do we accept? Which of Ito's? They aren't consistent.


Yes, you're absolutely right. I think which one we accept is up to us.

It's interesting that Toyama has decided to change his mind on it, but I actually think that's cool... it feels in the spirit of the series. They've always liked leaving things for the player to decide. With that statement, it's almost as if Toyama is saying "decide for yourself."

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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Sep 2014
Notes left: 348
Last seen at: Kent (England)
Tillerman wrote:
Remember, we're not arguing about whether Cybil is "dead" or not. She's fictional, the correct answer is that she never existed. Rather, what you're arguing about is whether the Good+ ending path, taken as canon, should be considered "good writing." And obviously, your answer to that is no. I disagree.


But that is precisely what a lot of people are arguing, you are saying she can't be dead because she is fictional. I do not believe anyone is under any delusions or interpretations that Silent Hill is not fictional.

The discussion is whether the game makers have implied that she was killed in the story or not.

She never existed in real life, sure... But in the fiction of SH she does and that is the context in which people are discussing, saying that she is fictional and therefore not real does not prove anyone's point either way... it is moot as we all know this.

When I said she may not be real I was referring to the fact that she could have existed completely in Harry's mind like people have suggested about some other characters throughout the series.

None of the characters in SH are real as it is all fiction, so when people say that she is dead you know what they mean dude I think you're just being a bit silly :D (they mean the CHARACTER did not survive the events of the story).

Any Fictional characters can be killed off Brother.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
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Its Gone Now wrote:
None of the characters in SH are real as it is all fiction, so when people say that she is dead you know what they mean dude I think you're just being a bit silly :D (they mean the CHARACTER did not survive the events of the story).

Any Fictional characters can be killed off Brother.


I'm not saying she can't be killed off within the fiction.

There's basically 2 discussions going on here. 1. Is she dead or not. That's an issue of what is canon, in other words what is the "official" truth. On that issue, the only thing that matters is what the creators think. Since they've gone on record to address it directly, those statements are much more important than anything else.

2. Is the Good+ ending logically consistent or not. We have no evidence that this point has swayed their opinion about Cybil's fate, and we know for a fact that Toyama isn't bothered by any logical consistencies with the Good+ ending. So this is a separate issue, about whether people like the Good+ ending as a piece of fiction writing or not. Some people are playing favorites with the creators quotes on the basis of which ending they like better.

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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Sep 2014
Notes left: 348
Last seen at: Kent (England)
Tillerman wrote:
Its Gone Now wrote:
None of the characters in SH are real as it is all fiction, so when people say that she is dead you know what they mean dude I think you're just being a bit silly :D (they mean the CHARACTER did not survive the events of the story).

Any Fictional characters can be killed off Brother.


I'm not saying she can't be killed off within the fiction.

There's basically 2 discussions going on here. 1. Is she dead or not. That's an issue of what is canon, in other words what is the "official" truth. On that issue, the only thing that matters is what the creators think. Since they've gone on record to address it directly, those statements are much more important than anything else.

2. Is the Good+ ending logically consistent or not. We have no evidence that this point has swayed their opinion about Cybil's fate, and we know for a fact that Toyama isn't bothered by any logical consistencies with the Good+ ending. So this is a separate issue, about whether people like the Good+ ending as a piece of fiction writing or not. Some people are playing favorites with the creators quotes on the basis of which ending they like better.


Don't worry dude I know these things, I was merely pointing out that the fact that Cybil is a fictional character is irrelevant to the debate, that's all. :D


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jun 2012
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I never really understood why people believe that the good+ ending is Canon. After reading this entire thread and nodding along to agreeable points on both sides, I thought I'd throw my two cents in. Forgive me if I get anything wrong, I haven't played sh 1 for a good many years, but Google and this thread can certainly help me to refresh my memory.

In my mind, Cybil was never really a major character in the game and was made more major by the movie adaption, so if she was alive or not is irrelevant, as Harry didn't seem fit to mention her in his notes, not even one single sentence about the cop he met. His notes in 3 serve a singular purpose only; to inform heather of dahlia and alessa and the whole birthing of God. Nobody else is necessary to be mentioned, so people saying that the writer's/developer's should have placed a memo in 3 confirming whether she is indeed dead or not is irrelevant.

Now, in regards to the ending. I have to agree that it really does make no sense for Harry to use the Aglaophotis on cybil, regardless of the character of the man. He wouldn't even of had the time to think about it. In the same situation, (let's for a second forget that sh is a work of fiction and place ourselves in Harry's shoes at that point, with Harry's knowledge up to that point), most people would not instinctively reach for the odd red liquid and proceed to throw it upon not only the writhing woman, but a police officer at that. They'd have no clue if the liquid itself would even help in that situation. What if it had been acid? Devil spit? Indigestion medicine? No, cybil at that point in most people's minds, is a goner. Even thinking of helping her is a forgone conclusion, because the red liquid would not be at the forefront of your mind.
In this argument also, for those that believe Harry instinctively knew the Aglaophotis would help in this situation, I don't believe that Harry would waste something so precious. He wasn't to know the events of the final battle at the time, if his brain had told him to pick this odd liquid up, his brain would also be telling him not to waste it. Cybil is gone, don't try and save her. She was a nice woman, but my daughter is my main priority, and if I use this now, what if I could have used it later?
Though imo that whole thought process is irrelevant because I really don't think he would have thought of it at the time.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Why Good+ Ending is My Canon Ending (spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 26 Mar 2010
Notes left: 1874
Last seen at: Los Angeles
I, Rabbit wrote:
In my mind, Cybil was never really a major character in the game and was made more major by the movie adaption, so if she was alive or not is irrelevant, as Harry didn't seem fit to mention her in his notes, not even one single sentence about the cop he met. His notes in 3 serve a singular purpose only; to inform heather of dahlia and alessa and the whole birthing of God. Nobody else is necessary to be mentioned, so people saying that the writer's/developer's should have placed a memo in 3 confirming whether she is indeed dead or not is irrelevant.

Exactly. It's a quick way for them to clue the audience that is unfamiliar with SH1 to get what they need, not to tie up loose ends with ancillary characters.


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