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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Why the ending boss is named Incubus rather than Samael?

Missing since: 06 Mar 2016
Notes left: 4
I was reading some topics about the nature of Silent Hill 1 events. A member though the forum had suggested that the main plot of the game is nothing more than a big "illusion" inside a even bigger drama.

What that means?

It's mean that all events causes happens because the mysteries inside the Silent Hill city and that Alessa's manifestation hadn't nothing to do with "Samael" or any "god". Every reference to them is invented by Dahlia, and Silent Hill (the city) manifest it as like she imagine it.
Could this explain why the final boss ins't named Samael by the game.itself? Meaning that the Incubus final boss is nothing more than how Alessa and Dahlia believed he to be?

So, everything that happens in he first game is just a sub-plot to a bigger hidden plot? A hypothetical situation?

This theory helps to illuminate the events of Silent Hill 2. The second game haven't nothing to do with demons or occultism, just the city itself and the mind of the main characters.

I don't take serious the games beyond Silent Hill 3. Every game that comes after the third game I don't consider. Just games created by Team Silent.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Why the ending boss is named Incubus rather than Samael?
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Silent Hill 4 was created by Team Silent as well.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Why the ending boss is named Incubus rather than Samael?

Missing since: 06 Mar 2016
Notes left: 4
You're right, but just a few member of Team Silent participated of it, and it wasn't intent to be a Silent Hill game after all.

Team Silent members make clear that the series itself ends in the third game if I'm not mistaken.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Why the ending boss is named Incubus rather than Samael?
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Feb 2009
Notes left: 7970
Last seen at: Nowhere
Incubus is a demon that preys on women. Alessa is given the name Incubator according to some sources (guides, for example, official or not) because she was the Mother of (the Order's) God.

So, what's the fucking point? It could just be a play with the words and nothing more beyond that, really.

There are plenty of symbolism in all of the games, most by the developers but others by the fanbase. I don't have to say that some were proven false. Nice stuff here and there yada, yada, yada but pretty much all fanfic.

But yeah. At the end of the day it was all in Dahlia's and Alessa's mind. Mostly Dahlia's though. Harry explains the whole thing in-game with a single quote: "A world of someone's nightmarish delusion's come to life".

Alessa's influence on the Otherworld, despite powerful, was still at the beggining since she was a child. Couldn't control what affected the whole thing. The manifestations were more based on fear and anger than anything else. Confusion, you know what I mean?
But Dahlia was so fanatic that the manifestations (and now that's just my opinion) went full circle and became reality itself. It went beyond a simple "state of mind". Maybe Samael was a real demon. Just like Valtiel is a real angel.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Why the ending boss is named Incubus rather than Samael?

Missing since: 06 Mar 2016
Notes left: 4
You're right.

Something that I don't quite understand, and I believe most of fanbase fall into the same abyss, is the relationship between the events of the first game and the second.

Everything in Silent Hill 2 haven't nothing to do with the Silent Hill (1) except the city. No demon, no Alessa and Dahlia, no Harry, others manifestation (different monster for example) etc. I think it has little direct connecting between them.

This make me think about what the city, and only it on strict sense, has to do with the events.
After all isn't all the events of the first two games caused by the mysteries behind the city (never reveled by Team Silent) and because of that the events of first game was caused because of Alessa and Dahlia mind and nothing if "god" or "demon or "Samael" whatever? Maybe the city by its on is the main and only true responsable mainly by the events. This can help to explain what I talking about and create a relation between the two first games (I consider they to be the best).


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Why the ending boss is named Incubus rather than Samael?
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Feb 2009
Notes left: 7970
Last seen at: Nowhere
^ Yeah, pretty much. It's the "power of the old Gods" in the city + the human emotions that make the Otherworld and it's denizens (monsters) appear. But it's been stated, in games like 3 and 4, for example, that it's like a "state of mind", a dream if you may. Not a physical realm.

But, as I said, sometimes I think the chain reaction is just TOO powerful and it causes a rupture and the dream becomes reality.

Note that the Otherworld isn't all THAT bad. It depends on the individual. A patient in Brookhaven's Hospital, and Laura, both from Silent Hill 2, had nothing to fear.

Regardless... The Adversary, Burning Man and AuraTwilight can explain better. Guys know their shit, believe me. I summon thee! Come forth!

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Why the ending boss is named Incubus rather than Samael?
     
         
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Missing since: 30 Jan 2011
Notes left: 250
Last seen at: Gnashville, TN
About the connection between SH1 and SH2, AuraTwilight had some interesting things to say about how Alessa may have permanently changed whatever power is at work in Silent Hill during the events of the first game.

It makes me wonder if the type of events we see in SH2 would have even been possible before Harry and Cheryl crashed. If true, AT's idea would mean that James is only able to manifest the monsters and locations shown due to the imprint Alessa left on the town's power.

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Don stepped outside... It feels good to be alone... He wished he was drunk...


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Why the ending boss is named Incubus rather than Samael?

Missing since: 06 Mar 2016
Notes left: 4
What explanation we have about the "wake up" Harry suffers during the game e.g. on Cafe 5to2 where he meet Cybil for the first time and sometimes in Alchemilla Hospital?

It's look like something ilogical and at the same time interesting. It's like everything happened inside Harry's mind (maybe?) and was real at all.


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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Why the ending boss is named Incubus rather than Samael?

Missing since: 16 Aug 2014
Notes left: 356
I wonder what really gives the town the source of its power before Alessa even existed. Was it pre-cult old 'gods' of the town?

What was the proper name of the cult? The Order or Hope House?

Also, the SH God seems to be thought of as female usually, though a female demon is typically called a succubus.


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Why the ending boss is named Incubus rather than Samael?
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 565
Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
Alexius Corvinus wrote:
What was the proper name of the cult? The Order or Hope House?
The Order. Wish House (aka Hope House) was an orphanage held by the Holy Mother sect.

Alexius Corvinus wrote:
Also, the SH God seems to be thought of as female usually, though a female demon is typically called a succubus.

Generally, Silent Hill's mythology likes to play the antithesis to the general aspects of real religions. For instance:
- God is a She, not a He
- the man and the woman created God, not the other way around
- God is born from pain and suffering
- ...
And so on, and so on.. Do you see it?

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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Why the ending boss is named Incubus rather than Samael?

Missing since: 16 Aug 2014
Notes left: 356
Yep, I'm sort of well aware of the SH mythos, which is from the perspective of the cult. I'm curious where the pre-cult, pre-Alessa source of power fits in the grand scheme of things. Was it from pre-cult spirits or gods? Does the town itself sapient by nature or at all. Where does Metatron fit in all of this? Is the SH God an adversary of Metatron, or could Metatron actually be a hypostasis of the SH God? It's interesting how the mythos takes the Zoroastrian concept of dualism and seemingly outright rejects it (as far as I know, there is no Satan/Ahriman adversary to the SH God and if there is, it isn't viewed as a devil like being? Or do they view God and the Devil as one and the same? (Echoing what Vincent says in SH 3)).


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Why the ending boss is named Incubus rather than Samael?
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 565
Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
Alexius Corvinus wrote:
I'm curious where the pre-cult, pre-Alessa source of power fits in the grand scheme of things
Well, a general belief is that the power was always there. No reference to any origin.

However, I believe it's fair to say there are generally two main ideas about the Otherside/Otherworld timeline.

The first one suggests that the traditional Otherworld process has always been the same. A person with a troubled mind comes or is called to Silent Hill and then the power of the town swallows the subject and it does what it does. No pre-Alessa/post-Alessa distinction.

The other set of assumptions is related to the idea that the activity of the power wasn't always the same. Before, it was merely the Place of the Silenced Spirits. The power manifested itself in a more discrete fashion in contrast with the activity that we know from the series. But how exactly it differed from the traditional Otherworld is a bit obscure. Whether there were only visions, or whether it just lacked the feature that enables the town to "call" its subjects that are physically outside the given range, or if it just lacked the ability to recycle/merge manifestations belonging to different individuals, we don't really know. The point is that this idea assumes that the pre-Alessa activity was a rough version of the power that she later upgraded by adding these extra features that were previously missing.

But all in all, the power (in whatever form) was always just there. As far as I know, we never got any hint about its true origin. And in truth, I don't think we actually need it. The stories in the series were always about why and how the power worked, how it manifested the subject's thoughts - not where it came from. And if you ask me, that's the beauty of it.

Alexius Corvinus wrote:
Was it from pre-cult spirits or gods? Does the town itself sapient by nature or at all.
I think that throughout the series we are given enough hints and proofs that the town is not sentient. It doesn't have a mind of its own. The gods you're mentioning are nothing more than a manifestation of an individual or a group of people.

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Why the ending boss is named Incubus rather than Samael?
     
         
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Missing since: 08 Aug 2012
Notes left: 191
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Maybe Samael was a real demon. Just like Valtiel is a real angel.


How come? Aren't those just manifestations?

Well, to be honest, I don't think any of the Team Silent games equate Samael with God/Incubus. Lost memories actually suggests that Samael, Metatron and Valtiel "share the same existence" or whatever.

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"Good people should love their enemies" - Seu Madruga


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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Why the ending boss is named Incubus rather than Samael?
     
         
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Missing since: 06 Mar 2008
Notes left: 1383
Last seen at: Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium
Hell Above Us wrote:
You're right, but just a few member of Team Silent participated of it, and it wasn't intent to be a Silent Hill game after all.

Team Silent members make clear that the series itself ends in the third game if I'm not mistaken.

That's not just incredibly false, but a whole load of bullshit.

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I EAT GALAXIES FOR BREAKFAST.


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