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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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Cheryl doesn't have any powers, so she can't control anything.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Jan 2005
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Outside SH, no. But back in SH, you betcha. The whole "It was like she was walking on thin air." is a pretty good indicator that since her return, she's tapped back into her powers.

Unless, of course Cybil is lying. But lying would serve no purpose.

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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19453
Last seen at: #lfk
>Outside SH, no. But back in SH, you betcha.<
Um, no. Not at all.

>The whole "It was like she was walking on thin air." is a pretty good indicator that since her return, she's tapped back into her powers.<
She's talking about Alessa. You know, the other girl with short, black hair. Cheryl, like Dahlia says, "no longer exists."

Here. "After uniting [with Cheryl], Alessa had acquired psychic powers such as teleportation—powers that she had always possessed." (Silent Hill Official Guidebook Complete Edition)

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I also apologize for being a dick to, like, all of you.


. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Jan 2005
Notes left: 7376
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Right, cause a 17 yr. old girl w/ black hair is so easily mistaken for a 7 yr. old girl w/ black hair.

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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19453
Last seen at: #lfk
. . . Have you played the game at all?

What Harry, and in turn Cybil, is seeing is the reunited form of Alessa and Cheryl, the spirit of the two, the "ghost," just like the one seen genuflecting at the altar in Nowhere, running down the halls, and cowering in the basement's basement.

She's seeing Alessa. Cheryl no longer exists.

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I also apologize for being a dick to, like, all of you.


. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 12338
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
Then who is the charred body wrapped in bandages in the wheelchair?

Alessa is the body in the wheelchair. Cheryl as a separate conscious entity ceases to exist, but the mysterious unburned girl we see during the game is Cheryl and Alessa merged. They are the same soul after all.

_________________
"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Jan 2005
Notes left: 7376
Last seen at: Couldn't tell you even if I tired
So my theory stands. If Cheryl and Alessa joined the sec. Chery returned, then Cheryl and Alessa as a combined consciousness, are the ones controlling Cybil. Call the collective conscious whatever you want, it was the collective conscious of both girl controlling Cybil, not Dahlia. I'd rather call it Cheryl. Alessa was the past form like an evolving Pok-e-mon, Cheryl was the higher form.

Besides, there is still two different version of GhostGirl running around, 17 yr. old Alessa and 7 yr. old Cheryl. We still see 17 yr. old GhostAlessa after Cybil delivers that line. Why would she appear as Cheryl to Harry to lure him down the alley, then become 17 yr. old Alessa for Harry in the school, become7yr.s old Alessa walking across Backman Rd. then back to Alessa for Harry on the Lighthouse and the amusement park then finally become Lil' Alessa in Nowhere? This would be ridiculous. It makes much more since for there to be two separate ghost, GhostCheryl and GhostAlessa until Dahlia finds Alessa and drags her back to her body, thus creating Lil Alessa's ghost.

On top of that, Lil' Alessa is nothing but a memory that Harry sees. Why should Cybil see her anyway? Harry catches glimpses of her in Norwhere and only there. Nowhere (heh, not the place) else in the game does Harry see young Alessa, only older Alessa. To make the jump that Lil' Alessa is anywhere else in the game at all doesn't make sense.

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The war has begun:
Use your voice today before you no longer have one tomorrow.
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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19453
Last seen at: #lfk
>Then who is the charred body wrapped in bandages in the wheelchair?<
. . . Alessa.

>On top of that, Lil' Alessa is nothing but a memory that Harry sees.<
So is the Cheryl you so desperately cling to. The two girls have already merged when the game actually begins—with Harry awakening in the café.

>Why should Cybil see her anyway?<
It's evident from Cybil she sees her. Like you said, there's no way for Cybil to confuse a seven-year-old with a fourteen-year-old. Cybil knows Harry's daughter is seven.

_________________
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

I also apologize for being a dick to, like, all of you.


. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 12338
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
The Adversary wrote:
>Then who is the charred body wrapped in bandages in the wheelchair?<
. . . Alessa.


Then the figure we see is based on Cheryl's physical body transmogrified into an adolescent form. Cheryl was a real, physical girl. She didn't simply cease to exist. I don't think her consciousness did, either. There is still a lingering part of Cheryl. This is evident in the glimmers of Cheryl we make contact with, who pleads for help from her daddy.

Alessa/Cheryl, the combined form, I believe is two consciousnesses.

_________________
"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19453
Last seen at: #lfk
>Then the figure we see is based on Cheryl's physical body transmogrified into an adolescent form.<
In the wheelchair you have Alessa, immolated, bandaged. On the floor you have Alessa, seven-year-old, "phantom."

>This is evident in the glimmers of Cheryl we make contact with, who pleads for help from her daddy.<
These are all layered with images of Alessa, because Cheryl is Alessa.

>Alessa/Cheryl, the combined form, I believe is two consciousnesses.<
They aren't really two separate consciousnesses. They are simply both parts of Alessa. Cheryl officially wasn't aware of this connection, but she doesn't exactly have her own soul, either.

Also: The only time Harry actually sees "Cheryl" is during the opening sequence, which is officially a dream, and displayed on the televisions in the mall—which, as noted, is mixed with images of Alessa.

And then there's this: "the game features both a grown-up form of Alessa as well as a child form. One of these is her appearance at her actual age, while the other is a 'phantom' from seven years ago. By merging with Cheryl, Alessa (at her actual age) was reborn from her severe burns."

_________________
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

I also apologize for being a dick to, like, all of you.


. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11387
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Cheryl probably has powers, even if she never used them before merging with Alessa. We can't exactly prove or state otherwise. And I think it's hard to argue against Cheryl having an influence on events. Cheryl calls out to Harry atleast twice, is probably responsible for events which benefit Harry such as the finding of useful items, and it's quite likely the snow is her doing if we go with the "snow = innocence" interpretation.

Oh, and Cheryl so obviously and totally left messages for Harry via the sketchbook. To School.

Yes, Cheryl is now nothing more than a part of Alessa's psyche, but if we're going to accept at all that Alessa acted with benefit towards Harry in any way, we can probably blame this on the aspect of Cheryl within her. I don't think it's necessary for Cheryl to have her own separate existence in order to say "Cheryl did this."

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Jan 2005
Notes left: 7376
Last seen at: Couldn't tell you even if I tired
The Adversary wrote:
The two girls have already merged when the game actually begins—with Harry awakening in the café.

That is exactly what I said. There was the Total Entity, whatever you want to call it, it is the one controlling Harry. Call it Cheryl, call it Alessa. For I really care you can call it Bert. My theory still stands. Bert is controlling Cybil, Lisa and Harry. Not Dahlia. That is what the thread is about. Cybil and who is pulling her puppet strings.

The Adversary wrote:
It's evident from Cybil she sees her. Like you said, there's no way for Cybil to confuse a seven-year-old with a fourteen-year-old. Cybil knows Harry's daughter is seven.


Repeat. Repeat?

If Cybil sees Lil' Alessa, why does Alessa reappear again later as her 14 or 17 or whatever age they've put her at, why does she appear in 2 forms? There is no reason, in fact it makes more since for her to appear as Lil Alessa to Harry because she looks like Cheryl and as we can tell very easily, that is who he is looking for. If she is going to take a form, she'd chose one and only one. Why would she chose to look like her older self to one person and her younger self to another?

And of course Cheryl has powers. However weak from the split, she still has them. She was more than likely, never aware of them until she returned to SH and had Alessa whispering in her ear. Once she had them, she used them to contact her father.

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The war has begun:
Use your voice today before you no longer have one tomorrow.
World Toilet Organization
I'm like a circle, I'M TOO GOOD FOR CORNERS!!!


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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 12338
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
Ban him, Harrys_Girl! It is now within your power! It's also a very decisive way to win arguments against unmovable wills. ;)

I like the idea of calling the Entity Bert. I am going to dub Walter's mother Ernie.

As for Cheryl having powers, I say that if Dahlia, Walter, Claudia, and the entire Holy Way order have powers (not to mention Alessa, who Tommy repeatedly asserts IS Cheryl herself), there's no reason to view the suggestion that Cheryl has powers as silly. ESPECIALLY since Heather, who is Cheryl/Alessa/Bert as well, also has them. What with her/them/it also having God inside her to boot.

_________________
"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19453
Last seen at: #lfk
Prove to me Cheryl has powers, then.

>It's also a very decisive way to win arguments against unmovable wills.<
Funny you would say that. . . .

>Bert is controlling Cybil, Lisa and Harry.<
No one is controlling Cybil, Lisa, or Harry. All of them are acting of their own free will.

>If Cybil sees Lil' Alessa, why does Alessa reappear again later as her 14 or 17 or whatever age they've put her at, why does she appear in 2 forms?<
You tell me. You're the one debating she constantly switches ages. I've already told you the seven-year-old Alessa is a "phantom" (officially). Someone seems to be vacillating heavily between what either Harry and Cybil and the audience saw. I maintain Cybil saw the same girl with short, black hair who Harry saw. You're telling me Cybil saw a seventeen-year-old—in spite of Alessa only being fourteen. . . .

If Cheryl really had the powers either of you claim—the powers of Alessa, because they're technically the same—she could have teleported to or telecommunicated with him directly. She doesn't. Ever. Because she can't. Why? Well, she no longer exists, is why. . . .

_________________
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

I also apologize for being a dick to, like, all of you.


. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Jan 2005
Notes left: 7376
Last seen at: Couldn't tell you even if I tired
^No, you are telling me that. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat? I never stated Cybil saw Alessa, you offered it up. I said she saw Cheryl, the girl w/ short, black hair. The only girl ever seen w/ short, black hair that is near the age of 7 yr.s old, outside of Nowhere. Whatever power's Alessa had were not suddenly ex-sponged from Cheryl in her creation. Just because she doesn't know how does not mean she can't. She works a TV and a telephone outside the use of phone, cable or electrical lines. That is a pretty good indications she is using something else as a source of communication, i.e. Magic.

To that matter, why would you say they are moving on their own? Cybil tries to leave yet cannot. Silent Hill is not an island, if she wanted it badly enough, she could climb the fucking blockade and leave the town if no one was keeping her in. Lisa would leave the hospital as well. She is terrified, she even says "I'm so scared I can't stand it." followed by "I somehow know I'm not supposed to leave this place." Her free will is that she wants to leave, but an outside power, an outside will is preventing her.

This is why everyone quits trying to talk to you in a civilized manor. You run circles around them. I don't know if you think that means you win the argument, but to me it just seems that you get them dizzy enough so they walk away and you can feel like you won. Which I think I'll do now because you honestly aren't worth the time. I think I'll meander off to another part of the forum.

_________________
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The war has begun:
Use your voice today before you no longer have one tomorrow.
World Toilet Organization
I'm like a circle, I'M TOO GOOD FOR CORNERS!!!


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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 12338
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
Child Cheryl never appears again physically after the alleyway incident. Cybil claims to have seen Cheryl heading towards the lake, but I wonder if this could be some form of trickery, perhaps an illusion by Dahlia, or that Cybil never actually sees anything and is supernaturally compelled through Dahlia's influence to tell Harry she has in Green Lion. Save for the phone call and television image, Cheryl is never seen again.

I think that physically, Bert is the only thing that remains after they merge. The phone call and television thing are pieces of Cheryl's consciousness breaking through to make contact.

The idea that Lisa has free will is ludicrous. She's the Virun VII Crest of Alchemilla. She cannot leave the building. She's a prisoner.

_________________
"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2009
Notes left: 2523
The Adversary wrote:
The two girls have already merged when the game actually begins—with Harry awakening in the café.


Question about this! This means that the beginning of the game is a dream, correct? So... does that mean that we don't actually get to see Harry entering Silent Hill and walking to the cafe, or am I mistaken?

Quote:
This is why everyone quits trying to talk to you in a civilized manor. You run circles around them. I don't know if you think that means you win the argument, but to me it just seems that you get them dizzy enough so they walk away and you can feel like you won. Which I think I'll do now because you honestly aren't worth the time. I think I'll meander off to another part of the forum.


I'm not a mod, but this is rather uncalled for.

Quote:
Child Cheryl never appears again physically after the alleyway incident. Cybil claims to have seen Cheryl heading towards the lake, but I wonder if this could be some form of trickery, perhaps an illusion by Dahlia, or that Cybil never actually sees anything and is supernaturally compelled through Dahlia's influence to tell Harry she has in Green Lion. Save for the phone call and television image, Cheryl is never seen again.


This. I'm fairly sure it's been officially stated that as soon as Harry and Cheryl enter Silent Hill, Cheryl is re-joined with Alessa instantly. What Cybil saw could have been similar to what Harry saw at the beginning of the game and chased around the town.

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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 12338
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
I am on the fence about whether the merge is instantaneous. I have times when I think the Cheryl we see at the beginning is the real Cheryl, but that the merger happens sometime after she writes the note to Harry directing him to the school. She has no reason to direct Harry to her location if she's Alessa. Indeed, my theory is that Alessa tries to murder Harry in the alleyway and is stopped by Cheryl, where he is transported to the Diner to safety.

Alessa has every reason in the world to want Harry out of her way, especially after Dahlia turns him into a walking Flauros delivery system. There's no reason for the To School note other than a frightened child telling her father where she's going.

_________________
"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19453
Last seen at: #lfk
>I never stated Cybil saw Alessa, you offered it up. I<
I said Cybil saw the seven-year-old "phantom" of Alessa. The other short black-haired girl.

>Whatever power's Alessa had were not suddenly ex-sponged from Cheryl in her creation.<
Then why isn't Cheryl using the same powers Alessa has? say, teleport directly to her daddy.

>She works a TV and a telephone outside the use of phone, cable or electrical lines.<
Look closer: Alessa is in that image.

>Silent Hill is not an island<
No, but it's entirely blockaded and collapsed around. There's no way out.

>The idea that Lisa has free will is ludicrous. She's the Virun VII Crest of Alchemilla. She cannot leave the building. She's a prisoner.<
This is only a theory.

>So... does that mean that we don't actually get to see Harry entering Silent Hill and walking to the cafe, or am I mistaken?<
The sequence from Harry waking up in the jeep alone, of him chasing Cheryl through the fog, into the alley, and him experiencing the [otherside], being attacked by the kids is all a dream. When he wakes up in the café, he's actually awake. "Cheryl's disappearance into the alleyway during the opening came about because Alessa's nightmare had encroached into Harry's dream"

>I have times when I think the Cheryl we see at the beginning is the real Cheryl<
Not according to the developers.

>There's no reason for the To School note other than a frightened child telling her father where she's going.<
There's no reason for Alessa to not do the same, to lead him on, to get him closer, and, if nothing else, to delay him. What's with that smirk anyway. . . ? Looks a little like a "Too late . . ." smirk.

_________________
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

I also apologize for being a dick to, like, all of you.


. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11387
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
Ban him, Harrys_Girl! It is now within your power! It's also a very decisive way to win arguments against unmovable wills.


It'd be really funny if she did. I'd lol.

Quote:
Prove to me Cheryl has powers, then.


Heather and Alessa both demonstrate powers. Heather, Alessa, and Cheryl are all the same being. Therefore...

Oh wait, you tried to honestly argue Heather didn't have powers even when she had a prophetic dream. Nevermind.

Quote:
If Cheryl really had the powers either of you claim—the powers of Alessa, because they're technically the same—she could have teleported to or telecommunicated with him directly. She doesn't. Ever. Because she can't. Why? Well, she no longer exists, is why. . . .


Leaving aside the semantics of Cheryl's existence, the more likely answer is that Cheryl isn't able to exert as much influence as she'd like. The Cherylessa entity seems to be having some inner conflict which never fully ends until the end of SH3.

Quote:
Silent Hill is not an island, if she wanted it badly enough, she could climb the fucking blockade and leave the town if no one was keeping her in.


Er...to be fair, with all the infinite chasms and shit, it very well may be in the Otherworld.

Quote:
Then why isn't Cheryl using the same powers Alessa has? say, teleport directly to her daddy.


She's merged with a being that has the same powers, but greater force and/or experience. Cheryl is a level 7 n00b and Alessa's a level 14 cleric.

Quote:
Look closer: Alessa is in that image.


Yea, so? That could mean anything. Maybe Alessa's trying to jam it, or maybe it's just a bleedover since their minds are more or less totally merged.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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