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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 12343
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
The Adversary wrote:
>The idea that Lisa has free will is ludicrous. She's the Virun VII Crest of Alchemilla. She cannot leave the building. She's a prisoner.<
This is only a theory.


But it's a damn good one, and explains the major issue of the Hospital's total lack of a Crest as well as Lisa's inability to leave. It doesn't conflict anything the developers have said.


The Adversary wrote:
>I have times when I think the Cheryl we see at the beginning is the real Cheryl<
Not according to the developers.


Show me. Provide me with a citation.

Quote:
>There's no reason for the To School note other than a frightened child telling her father where she's going.<
There's no reason for Alessa to not do the same, to lead him on, to get him closer, and, if nothing else, to delay him. What's with that smirk anyway. . . ? Looks a little like a "Too late . . ." smirk.


What smirk?

Also, Alessa is not cruel. She has no reason to be so malicious as to jerk Harry around and torment him like a cat torments a mouse. Her goal is self preservation and stopping Dahlia. There's little room for cruelty there. Yes, I espouse that Alessa actively tries to kill Harry via the monsters, but there's a difference between murder in self defense and torture.

Aura: I think you've zeroed in on an important point: Alessa/Cheryl/Alessyl/Bert is in many ways like a split personality. The level 7 < level 14 analogy is not only funny but also apt. Also, given that Alessa is the source soul for Cheryl's, it makes sense that Cheryl as an incomplete half soul who never existed in a full human form would be subordinate to the other half of her soul: her "host" if you will.

The image of Alessa's photo that appears on the television is, to me, Cheryl trying to communicate to Harry "Daddy, it's ME! That girl you're chasing around for Dahlia is ME. Help me!"

Also important is the point that the internal Cheryl/Alessa conflict that exists demonstrably in Heather in SH3 confirms Cheryl's continuing existence. Heather has fond memories of her mother. I always have said that this sweet and gentle mother is a reference to Mrs. Mason.

By the end of SH3, I like to think that Alessa is dead, and Cheryl/Heather are the only remaining parts of Heather.

_________________
"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19454
Last seen at: #lfk
>Heather and Alessa both demonstrate powers. Heather, Alessa, and Cheryl are all the same being.<
Yet, again, Heather doesn't display any powers, while Alessa's spirit does.

>She's merged with a being that has the same powers, but greater force and/or experience.<
But I thought they were the same person a minute ago.

>Maybe Alessa's trying to jam it, or maybe it's just a bleedover since their minds are more or less totally merged.<
Or maybe Alessa's sending Harry on a wild sheep chase to delay him from her own bidness.

>Show me. Provide me with a citation.<
I have already: "Cheryl's disappearance into the alleyway during the opening came about because Alessa's nightmare had encroached into Harry's dream" (Silent Hill Official Guidebook Complete Edition).

>Also, Alessa is not cruel.<
Alessa wants to destroy herself and everyone else in Silent Hill. Her goal is absolutely not self-preservation because she wants to die: she's suicidal.

_________________
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

I also apologize for being a dick to, like, all of you.


. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 12343
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
Fine, then. Cheryl in the beginning is a ghost. The other support for Cheryl's continuing existence still stands.

Alessa is suicidal, but she's also being very careful not to kill everyone. I see her spreading of the Crest and creation of the Otherworld as a separate realm where only she exists. She can obliterate that reality to kill herself without taking out the rest of the town in the process.

I guess instead of self preservation I should have said that her goal is to STOP Dahlia from bringing about "Paradise" through God inside her.

Alessa wants to kill a total of three people and three people only: herself, Dahlia, and Kaufmann. She does NOT want to murder the town. God is fully incubated by the time Cheryl returns. There's no reason why, once made whole again, she couldn't just take divine retribution against the citizenry immediately if that was her goal.

Let's take your argument that the Puppet Nurses are the real nurses for example. If she has the ability to suck the citizens into her nightmare and brutalize them like that, why didn't she do that to everyone? If she really wanted to kill everyone, she certainly does seem choosy about who she pulled into her nightmare. This is using your own logic here.

No, Alessa in SH1 is not the vengeful psychotic she was in the Movie. She's a horribly tortured girl who appears to be doing everything she can to avoid unnecessary casualties.

She's also not entirely suicidal. Hence: Heather.

_________________
"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

Missing since: 15 Jul 2010
Notes left: 16
Exactly droo and of course in sh3 she tries to prevent gods birth again and
it killing off everyone so she does care about other people in the sh universe that isn't the order.


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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 12343
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
Well, theoretically Heather's views on the world don't necessarily have to synch up with Alessa OR Cheryl's necessarily. Cheryl goes to prove that a distinct personality can exist in a person regardless of the personality of the original soul. Alessa and Cheryl were two different personalities from one soul. I think that neither Alessa or Cheryl were quite as mouthy and rebellious as Heather.

_________________
"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
Notes left: 11059
Last seen at: In the anals of forum history
To be fair, neither Alessa nor Cheryl were permitted to live normal lives past the age of 7. Heather got a whole extra decade of normal life experience.

Alessa and Cheryl might well have turned out to be smart-assed teenage girls under normal circumstances.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2009
Notes left: 2523
Quote:
The sequence from Harry waking up in the jeep alone, of him chasing Cheryl through the fog, into the alley, and him experiencing the [otherside], being attacked by the kids is all a dream. When he wakes up in the café, he's actually awake. "Cheryl's disappearance into the alleyway during the opening came about because Alessa's nightmare had encroached into Harry's dream"


Thanks for clarifying that!

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11387
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
The image of Alessa's photo that appears on the television is, to me, Cheryl trying to communicate to Harry "Daddy, it's ME! That girl you're chasing around for Dahlia is ME. Help me!"


I like that idea.

Quote:
By the end of SH3, I like to think that Alessa is dead, and Cheryl/Heather are the only remaining parts of Heather.


Thematically, sure, but Alessa's memories seem alive and well. While Heather overcame two things that defined Alessa (love for Claudia, wish to die), she still probably retains some things, like interest in bugs or whatever the fuck.

Quote:
>Heather and Alessa both demonstrate powers. Heather, Alessa, and Cheryl are all the same being.<
Yet, again, Heather doesn't display any powers, while Alessa's spirit does.


Heather can see the future and turn into a laser-shooting princess. Heather and Alessa are literally the same being.

Your argument is one that feeds itself regardless of validity. You say Cheryl and Heather can't have superpowers, and if they DO show they have abilities, you just say it's Alessa within them, despite all three girls being the same individual. Talk about circular reasoning.

Quote:
>She's merged with a being that has the same powers, but greater force and/or experience.<
But I thought they were the same person a minute ago.


Indeed, but since you insist that as far as "powers" go they must be distinct in some sense ("Heather didn't do it, Alessa did"), then Alessa has more experience and potential than Cheryl, regardless of metaphysics.

Quote:
>Maybe Alessa's trying to jam it, or maybe it's just a bleedover since their minds are more or less totally merged.<
Or maybe Alessa's sending Harry on a wild sheep chase to delay him from her own bidness.


"How can I delay this dude trying to catch me? Oh I GOT IT, I'll make him even more desperate to catch me so he can save his daughter. This will totally work."

Quote:
>Also, Alessa is not cruel.<
Alessa wants to destroy herself and everyone else in Silent Hill. Her goal is absolutely not self-preservation because she wants to die: she's suicidal.


Need a citation on that bold.

Quote:
Alessa wants to kill a total of three people and three people only: herself, Dahlia, and Kaufmann. She does NOT want to murder the town.


...Ehh. Kaufman maybe. I'm not entirely sure she wants to kill Dahlia.

But then, I'm iffy on the idea of Alessa wanting to kill anyone. A part of her characterization is that being responsible for murder is very distressing to her.

Quote:
To be fair, neither Alessa nor Cheryl were permitted to live normal lives past the age of 7. Heather got a whole extra decade of normal life experience.

Alessa and Cheryl might well have turned out to be smart-assed teenage girls under normal circumstances.


No fucking way, it was totally the badass Mason parenting in her, so atleast Alessa probably wouldn't of.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19454
Last seen at: #lfk
>I see her spreading of the Crest and creation of the Otherworld as a separate realm where only she exists.<
Yet here's Harry, M.K., Dahlia, Lisa, Cybil and the rest of the hospital's staff.

>She's also not entirely suicidal. Hence: Heather.<
Alessa didn't create Heather. And, if you'll remember, Alessa does everything she can to kill Heather.

>Need a citation<
"If the seal were to be completed, Harry, Cybil, Dahlia and the others would all be annihilated along with Alessa."

_________________
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

I also apologize for being a dick to, like, all of you.


. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 12343
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
Rebuttal 1: Only Harry and Lisa appear in the Otherworld at first. It's not until enough Virun VII Crests are completed and the Otherworld begins to gain supremacy over Foggy Silent Hill do Cybil, Kaufmann, and Dahlia get pulled into it. And you already know that I think the idea that the Puppet Nurses are the actual staff is hogwash, so I shall waste no more words on it. The point I am trying to make is, Alessa wouldn't even need Foggy Silent Hill let alone The Otherworld to kill everyone if she wanted to. Nor would Foggy Silent Hill AND The Otherworld to be devoid of life outside of these few individuals if her intention was to murder the entire town in reality.

Rebuttal 2: So who created Heather? Sure looked like God-As-Alessa to me. My thought has always been that Alessa wanted to die, but Cheryl didn't. It was the remnant of Cheryl who created Heather for Harry and guided him to safety. Alessa herself laments her foolishness and resistance to death in the memo you get after killing the Memory of Alessa in SH3.

Rebuttal 3: Seriously? You have inflated "If the seal were to be completed, Harry, Cybil, Dahlia and the others would all be annihilated along with Alessa" into meaning she specifically wanted to kill the entire town? Why not expand that to the entire state of Maine? The United States? North America? The world? "...and the others" is extremely vague, and could mean anything. I take it to simply mean Kaufmann, Lisa, and, if it appeases you, the Alchemilla Staff and remaining monsters. There's no conclusive wording here to connote the entire town.

_________________
"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

Missing since: 27 Aug 2010
Notes left: 17
Quote:
Yes, we could surely assume that she was under Cheryl's control.
But then again, if she is relevant to Lisa, why doesn't she see monsters just as Lisa does?
Maybe she can to some degree, she did give her gun to a civilian. Best I know, that isn't normal police procedure, so she must have had some idea that weird stuff was happening.

One could consider it entirely possible that Alessa and Cheryl represent the Super Ego and Id of a personality that would eventually become Heather. If it makes it more palatable to The Adversary to think of it this way; suppose that while Alessa and Cheryl have combined to become Bert, but they still have distinct ideas on how to deal with a problem (i.e. Harry) Alessa's being much more goal oriented and Cheryl's being oriented towards emotions and comfort. Ever had conflicting impulses on a decision? It would be a bit like that except that the two opposing impulses have access to god-like supernatural powers.


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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 12343
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
Please do not double post. If you have more to contribute to any thread you were the last person to respond to, please use the Edit button to add your new points to your old post. Thank you.

_________________
"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11387
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
"If the seal were to be completed, Harry, Cybil, Dahlia and the others would all be annihilated along with Alessa."


This doesn't mean she wants to kill anyone outside of herself. This may simply be the only way she can kill herself what with the god fetus in her. Anyone else who hasn't managed to get the fuck out of dodge is a regrettable but unavoidable casualty. She'll have to risk the lives of a few other people to prevent the destruction of all mankind.

And since you keep claiming Alessa has no conscious control over the Otherworld, you can't claim anyone's presence in her realm means she specifically targeted them.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

Missing since: 27 Aug 2010
Notes left: 17
Droo wrote:
Please do not double post. If you have more to contribute to any thread you were the last person to respond to, please use the Edit button to add your new points to your old post. Thank you.

Apologies, I am used to using a forum where ideas that do not sync up are usually posted separately.


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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 12343
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
No worries. I was merely informing you. There was no frustration or anger in my post. :)

_________________
"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

Missing since: 27 Aug 2010
Notes left: 17
Droo wrote:
No worries. I was merely informing you. There was no frustration or anger in my post. :)
All right, I'll remember to keep it to one post next time.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

Missing since: 29 Mar 2010
Notes left: 8
As I said in another forum topic, Cybil crashed RIGHT by a chasm, flew out of her windshield, and then she got grabbed by a "chasm monster" or an Air Screamer and got thrown against the edge of the chasm. This occasion, she rode a cop car. On this occasion, she was going to investigate/clean up the Alessa/Order case. Alessa put a barrier against police (chasms). Her purpose in Silent Hill is to help any survivors. The monsters aren't there because she failed that test. Her final test is loyalty (the carousel) with Harry. So, Alessa DOES see her, but has plans for her. She sees that Harry and a possessed Cybil will cross paths, so she doesn't try to stop Cybil. Depending on the ending, Alessa once again tries to kill/stop her. She shoots a lightning bolt at her. Although, this may have been a "No, this time you WON'T help. This is me vs. Harry" type-of-thing.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
Notes left: 11059
Last seen at: In the anals of forum history
^ I think this is the correct thread for that post.

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SHH Cult Subscriber
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
Notes left: 4060
Last seen at: Carrollton, TX
theREALmgo has been deactivated. In case it wasn't extremely, totally, beat-you-over-the-head obvious, he's underage.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
     
         
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Missing since: 29 Jun 2009
Notes left: 2301
The Adversary wrote:
>Heather and Alessa both demonstrate powers. Heather, Alessa, and Cheryl are all the same being.<
Yet, again, Heather doesn't display any powers, while Alessa's spirit does.

>She's merged with a being that has the same powers, but greater force and/or experience.<
But I thought they were the same person a minute ago.

>Maybe Alessa's trying to jam it, or maybe it's just a bleedover since their minds are more or less totally merged.<
Or maybe Alessa's sending Harry on a wild sheep chase to delay him from her own bidness.

>Show me. Provide me with a citation.<
I have already: "Cheryl's disappearance into the alleyway during the opening came about because Alessa's nightmare had encroached into Harry's dream" (Silent Hill Official Guidebook Complete Edition).

>Also, Alessa is not cruel.<
Alessa wants to destroy herself and everyone else in Silent Hill. Her goal is absolutely not self-preservation because she wants to die: she's suicidal.

technically she is already dead. she just wants to implode the town and anyone involved in her misery ( the order and those who were/are involved)

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