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Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)
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Author:  AuraTwilight [ 29 Sep 2010 ]
Post subject:  Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

Seein' da future. Beginning of gaem.

Author:  Mantorok [ 29 Sep 2010 ]
Post subject:  Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

Doesn't Heather's existence alone confirm that the otherworld can actually influence the real world in a very physical way.

Author:  Droo [ 30 Sep 2010 ]
Post subject:  Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

Not when Heather's existence is sustained by Claudia, other members within the Order, and Harry himself.

Author:  AuraTwilight [ 30 Sep 2010 ]
Post subject:  Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

Which still doesn't change the fact that this is outside of Silent Hill, so it doesn't matter who believes what.

Author:  The Adversary [ 30 Sep 2010 ]
Post subject:  Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

>Not when Heather's existence is sustained by Claudia, other members within the Order, and Harry himself.<
So now Heather doesn't even exist. . . ?

Seriously, Droo. You're taking this idea too far. To extreme(ly terrible) lengths.

Author:  krakalackin [ 30 Sep 2010 ]
Post subject:  Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

I'll have to agree with the old goat on this one. Heather is real and I still think the god is real. I've seen no evidence that it isn't.

Author:  AuraTwilight [ 30 Sep 2010 ]
Post subject:  Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

In that case, every deity ever imagined is real.

Author:  krakalackin [ 30 Sep 2010 ]
Post subject:  Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

I'm only talking about the god of the game. The reason I said the god(or whatever the hell want to call it) is real is that it physically appears in the game. Now if you want to argue that it only exist in the otherworld and the not in the real world and by that definition it isn't real, then I could agree with that.

Author:  paladin181 [ 30 Sep 2010 ]
Post subject:  Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

Even if it existed in the real world I would argue against it being real beyond the belief of those who summoned it.

Author:  AuraTwilight [ 01 Oct 2010 ]
Post subject:  Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

krakalackin wrote:
I'm only talking about the god of the game. The reason I said the god(or whatever the hell want to call it) is real is that it physically appears in the game. Now if you want to argue that it only exist in the otherworld and the not in the real world and by that definition it isn't real, then I could agree with that.


Well, alright. It only appears in the Otherworld, right? Well, same for the monsters and Maria. What does the God even DO that separates it from just being a super strong monster?

Author:  krakalackin [ 01 Oct 2010 ]
Post subject:  Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

AuraTwilight wrote:
Well, alright. It only appears in the Otherworld, right? Well, same for the monsters and Maria. What does the God even DO that separates it from just being a super strong monster?

I agreed the god is nothing more than very powerful monster and the monsters, Maria, and even little Walter are only seen in the otherworld. Remember in The Room Henry told Eileen something like: "I don't know what this place is, but I know if you die here, you die in the real world." For those who are in it (the Otherworld) everything is real. The main character can feel pain, love, laugh, cry, and most important they can die. It's an alternate reality. So in the real world do the monsters and god physically exist(carbon based life forms)? No. But for those that enter or are sucked into Alessa's nightmare, Alternate Silent Hill, or Walter's world that world or envirnoment becomes their new reality as long as they are in it.

Author:  SilentWren [ 01 Oct 2010 ]
Post subject:  Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

^I agree with all that, but Heather existing implies that The Otherworld is another plane. (It is, give me a minute)
All of the Otherworlds in all the games lead back to the Cult's influence, even taking into account Alessa having innate abilities. So, are the they the generic spiritual plane of the Silent Hill universe, or are they a separate pocket within that plane?

I know it doesn't really matter at this point, but just wanted to get everyone's opinion. (If a game developer wanted to go with the former idea, I'd hope there wouldn't be a Zeus showing up in Shepard's Glen.) *Did that even make sense?*

Author:  SHF [ 01 Oct 2010 ]
Post subject:  Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

It's only "real" because its claudia's image of "god".

Author:  AuraTwilight [ 01 Oct 2010 ]
Post subject:  Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

Quote:
^I agree with all that, but Heather existing implies that The Otherworld is another plane. (It is, give me a minute)
All of the Otherworlds in all the games lead back to the Cult's influence, even taking into account Alessa having innate abilities. So, are the they the generic spiritual plane of the Silent Hill universe, or are they a separate pocket within that plane?


The Otherworld is an alternate universe Alessa created where thoughts and delusions become real. Easy.

Author:  krakalackin [ 01 Oct 2010 ]
Post subject:  Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

AuraTwilight wrote:
The Otherworld is an alternate universe Alessa created where thoughts and delusions become real. Easy.

^I couldn't have said it any clearer.

Author:  SilentWren [ 02 Oct 2010 ]
Post subject:  Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

^^so the latter option. Thank you!

Author:  Droo [ 02 Oct 2010 ]
Post subject:  Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

AuraTwilight wrote:
Quote:
^I agree with all that, but Heather existing implies that The Otherworld is another plane. (It is, give me a minute)
All of the Otherworlds in all the games lead back to the Cult's influence, even taking into account Alessa having innate abilities. So, are the they the generic spiritual plane of the Silent Hill universe, or are they a separate pocket within that plane?


The Otherworld is an alternate universe Alessa created where thoughts and delusions become real. Easy.


Except Alessa didn't create it. Travis did, originally.

Tommy: Why so uncomfortable with my suggestion that Heather's not a real person? You had no problem denying the unique existence of Cheryl. That in effect makes her not real.

I think Heather is like a Maria construct on steroids. A manifestation based on Alessa's beliefs, Harry's beliefs, and that of Claudia and The Order. However, Heather herself believes in her own existence so she will continue to exist even now that all of them are dead. I don't see what is so problematic with this.

Author:  AuraTwilight [ 02 Oct 2010 ]
Post subject:  Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

Quote:
Except Alessa didn't create it. Travis did, originally.


Even with Origins, Alessa clearly created it basing it off of Travis' psyche. Nice try.

Quote:
I think Heather is like a Maria construct on steroids. A manifestation based on Alessa's beliefs, Harry's beliefs, and that of Claudia and The Order. However, Heather herself believes in her own existence so she will continue to exist even now that all of them are dead. I don't see what is so problematic with this.


She exists in the real world? She has a soul? She's not a symbolic Freudian escapism tactic? She can manifest her own Otherworld and isn't dependent on anyone's existence?

If we're going to make Heather a construct, then there's literally no meaningful meaning to the word.

Author:  Droo [ 02 Oct 2010 ]
Post subject:  Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

I'll break it down for you then.

a) Alessa isn't just any ol' manifester like James and Angela. She has been imbued with incredible powers through the beliefs of several people who zealously believe she contains God inside her. This permits her to do things on a scale unmatched by anyone. The closest anyone has come is Walter Sullivan.

b) Alessa, having these incredible powers, has in the past created Cheryl. A self-aware entity that exists outside of Silent Hill, despite really just being half of Alessa herself.

c) Once Alessa and Cheryl merge to become Bert, Bert uses the last of her strength of create Heather and dies. Harry takes Heather and flees.

d) Heather's existence is sustained by fragments of Alessa's memories still existing in Silent Hill due to her extraordinary powers, as well as the support of others who know of her existence within the cult and that of her own adoptive father who witnessed her birth.

e) However, Harry has doubts as to Heather's nature, evidenced by his diary. Also, the Order members who know of her existence also believe she is Alessa in another form and thus has all the extraordinary abilities Alessa did. That being that Heather also contains God. These beliefs, combined with the abilities Bert imbued in Heather upon her creation do make Heather into a Cheryl-like construct who has inherent powers Cheryl on her own never had. She is a self-aware kind of amnesiac Bert.

f) None of the major players whose beliefs sustain and empower Alessa AND Cheryl AND Bert AND Heather know the true nature of what is going on. They authentically believe God is real. This MAKES God real and also MAKES Heather real, just as the delusions of the Holy Way Order were made very real upon the breaking of the covenant between them and God.

g) Thus, Heather is as real as Cheryl was, and is a fully complete manifestation. Maria on the other hand, was a manifestation based on the interaction between the town and James' guilty mind. James never believes really that she's real, and rejects her in all but the Maria ending. Thus at the end of SH2 in the Maria ending, Maria continues to exist. Unfortunately, James' mind seems to be bent on making her repeat Mary's tragedy. It is thus foreseeable that Maria will fall ill, dissolve, and die, and SH2 may happen all over again. Unstable manifestations never work. Look at Maria and Walter's world. However, Alessa/Cheryl/Bert/Heather is the PERFECT manifestation, fueled by enough believers to sustain themselves and is therefore more arguably "real" than any of the others. Of the four of them, though, Alessa Gillespie was the only one who ever really existed originally as a normal human being.

h) Thus, arguing Heather is a construct does not reduce the meaning of the word, as there are significant differences between her and the other constructs.

Author:  AuraTwilight [ 03 Oct 2010 ]
Post subject:  Re: Cybil: The Black Queen's Pawn (SPOILERS + Long Theory)

a) Yea, but the truly incredible feats, like reincarnation, were done with divine assistance (regardless of whether that deity was real), and it could do things she patently could not. She's not a Do-Whatever-The-Fuck omnipotent Reality Warper.

b) Yea, and despite this, Cheryl is half a person, not a soulless construct. It's more split personalities than anything.

c) More like "Gave birth to Bert."

d) Why does Heather's existence need to be "sustained" at all? She's there in the real world. She was born. She has DNA, atoms, molecules, an adherence to physics...it's not like the universe is trying to purge her like a virus.

e) Or she just has this shit because she's Alessa's reincarnation, which is true regardless of what anyone believes since it was an objective event that happened in time.

f) You've still yet to show any reason for me to believe that this "belief makes things real" rule has any applicability to the real world in any form. It works for the Otherworld, since the Otherworld is a plane of thought, but Earth is a plane of reality.

g) Again, Heather is Alessa regardless of what anyone believes. Maria is a lie regardless of what anyone believes.

h) The differences are significant enough that she has absolutely no qualities in common with any other construct in the entire Silent Hill multiverse, to the point where you pretty much have to use made-up speculation to create a correlation. Sorry, but I'm invoking the "Dahlia is a Robot" card.

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