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SHH Cult Subscriber
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Missing since: 22 Apr 2006
Notes left: 629
Last seen at: Traversing the Portals of Reality
I have told you many, many times I am not saying the demon IS God, I am merely saying he is what I've said, a demon. I never said they worshipped him, I'm saying that is who you fight in SH1.

So by your argument, tell me when the characters refer to him as Incubus, and I mean when did it come from their mouths.

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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19401
Last seen at: #lfk
You didn't answer mine, but: The developers, the makers of the game, have officially titled the winged demon as Incubus. It, the Incubus, also, is God, as previously stated, also provided by the developers in the book Silent Hill Chronicle.

The winged demon is how Dahlia perceives God--as shown at the altar beneath Green Lion Antiques; the Holy Woman is how Alessa, and the rest of The Order, perceives God--as shown in the stained-glass window in the Chapel in Silent Hill 3.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 23 Apr 2006
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Last seen at: where ever heather is staring at.
just call it god. it doesnt need a name.

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huh? radio? whats going on with that cd player?


REMEMBER KIDS REMEMBER HAS 3 E'S 2 M'S AND 2 R'S. NO ONE LIKES A /B/. NO NOT EVEN GOD. NO NOT EVEN SANTA. NO NOT EVEN MY CAT CASCADE. IN FACT SHE HATES A /B/ SO MUCH SHE HAS ATTACKED ME MORE THAN ONCE WHILST I WAS BROWSING. O RLY? NO. NO RLY. STAY OFF OF /B/. --MR. E HAMMA +_+


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 16 Apr 2006
Notes left: 639
ok...this is starting to turn into a clushay forum ending....I just have a few more questions about Alessa sealing Silent Hill into the Abyss....1)...How do we know for sure she was trying to do this? And if this is true...could it be possible that she drags everything into the dark silent hill world forever? or everything gets destroyed..? 2)..I always believed that Alessa just wanted to be left alone, especially from Dahlia, why would she want to seal her loving adopted father away into the abyss? Even though he was tricked into chasing her down with the Flauros to weaken her...but couldve easily known and just told him the truth...I just always thought if the seals were completed that the her delusional world would take over forever and she would never be bothered again by Dahlia....and the manifestation of Dahlia's image of god would be born..

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
Notes left: 12943
Last seen at: The Wand'ring Wood
Alessa was not adopted by Harry, and therefore owes not much of anything to him. Yes, he took care of Cheryl. No, I don't think she'd let this detail foil her plans. By bring Cheryl to Silent Hill, Harry inadvertantly played part in joining the two together again - and putting Alessa at a great risk. Her soul was completed, and thus the ritual that Dahlia and pals wanted could finally be finished. Plus I don't think she can control just who is affected once the Seal was completed. It's powers, which can be used for good and evil, aren't necessarily easy to control - the book in SH3 makes special note of the draining effects it has on its caster. Plus, like I said, I don't believe it could determine between who it should kill and who it should not.

Alessa's belief is that God cannot and will not live, and that it's better to die than to run the risk of letting it come into being. She says so herself in SH3, on the Merry-Go-Round bloody memo on the ground. She believes that it's merciful for herself to die instead of letting Heather carry on at that point of the game - Alessa sees and knows no other way to save herself (and "the world" I guess) without destroying herself and the God inside her. That's not so say she wanted the God to be born, however; she was just willing to do something completely extreme to make sure The Order's plans did not succeed. Consider the "Memory of Alessa" boss battle as the essence of Alessa lingering in the town desperately attempting its final wish: destroy God.

Back to the point: I don't believe Alessa, at that point in her life or in the storyline, would be willing to sit down and have a chat with Harry to see if he knew just what the Flauros would do to her or not. Considering that as soon as the Flauros is used it initiates a deterioration of control and order in the worlds, and that Alessa is easier to manipulate or hell, even falls completely back into Dahlia's control (just like when she was a child), I don't think there'd be any time or place for Harry to explain himself.

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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 16 Apr 2006
Notes left: 639
Krist. wrote:
Alessa was not adopted by Harry, and therefore owes not much of anything to him. Yes, he took care of Cheryl. No, I don't think she'd let this detail foil her plans. By bring Cheryl to Silent Hill, Harry inadvertantly played part in joining the two together again - and putting Alessa at a great risk. Her soul was completed, and thus the ritual that Dahlia and pals wanted could finally be finished. Plus I don't think she can control just who is affected once the Seal was completed. It's powers, which can be used for good and evil, aren't necessarily easy to control - the book in SH3 makes special note of the draining effects it has on its caster. Plus, like I said, I don't believe it could determine between who it should kill and who it should not.

Alessa's belief is that God cannot and will not live, and that it's better to die than to run the risk of letting it come into being. She says so herself in SH3, on the Merry-Go-Round bloody memo on the ground. She believes that it's merciful for herself to die instead of letting Heather carry on at that point of the game - Alessa sees and knows no other way to save herself (and "the world" I guess) without destroying herself and the God inside her. That's not so say she wanted the God to be born, however; she was just willing to do something completely extreme to make sure The Order's plans did not succeed. Consider the "Memory of Alessa" boss battle as the essence of Alessa lingering in the town desperately attempting its final wish: destroy God.

Back to the point: I don't believe Alessa, at that point in her life or in the storyline, would be willing to sit down and have a chat with Harry to see if he knew just what the Flauros would do to her or not. Considering that as soon as the Flauros is used it initiates a deterioration of control and order in the worlds, and that Alessa is easier to manipulate or hell, even falls completely back into Dahlia's control (just like when she was a child), I don't think there'd be any time or place for Harry to explain himself.


Good point, but according to the cult's belief...isnt the god good and wants to create paradise? So wouldnt Alessa be more willing to let the birth continue (if she even believed in the religion) so paradise would be created and salvation would be reached? Its just a thought...why would she want to destroy something that isnt evil....however.....i'de also like to point out something else too....if the creature coming out of Alessa wasnt REALLY the god but just an image of Dahlia's belief.....wouldn't Dahlia know this some how....or something? Why didn't the ritual produce the REAL god? I hope im not sounding like an idiot...I just want to hear your thought, theories, and facts about this topic...because its so deep and questionable... :roll:

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
Notes left: 12943
Last seen at: The Wand'ring Wood
I think Alessa would quite clearly know that the God isn't a benevolent force as the followers of the Order believe it do be, since it's been growing inside of her for years. The cult's beliefs aren't from first-hand experience, and I honestly have never doubted that the birth of this God would result in destruction and not a birth of Paradise. I think SH3 touches on this a bit, about how Paradise is made only after the world is cleansed with fire, or something or other. Anyway, any God that brings Paradise by killing everyone on Earth doesn't seem like a good God to me - and Heather says it herself: "A God born from hatred can never create a perfect Paradise." This God feeds off of hatred, pain and suffering, of Alessa's torment and nightmare as she lays comatose in the hospital basement, of the jolts it gives Heather throughout the game, of the hatred growing inside her towards Claudia and what she did to Heather's father - would a peaceful and loving God be born from such a thing?

But Claudia seems to believe that a benevolent God can be born from such mucky roots. I think she says something like "empathy can be born out of pain and suffering;" it's more than likely she believes the only way for God to bring Paradise to mankind is to experience mankind's pain. *shrug* However, if I had the life Claudia had I would believe such a thing as well. I'm not sure where I'm going with this since I'm a bit distracted, currently, but I've always believed that God's birth would do nothing but bring ruination and destruction. It seems hard to believe that Paradise can come from something like Hell.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 18 Jul 2004
Notes left: 2099
Last seen at: Australia
Rather than going into detail and needlessly re-hashing what has already been said:
[spoiler]
Considering Alessa was willing to kill "herself" to prevent the birth of God in the third game, I don't think she would even consider sparing Harry.
[/spoiler]


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all i can say is wow, i'm bored
yah dahlia is cracked thats why i think she did it, amongts the good speculation that she did it to reall "nagate" her existance in alysssas world, but see in doing so doesn't she not nagate her existance but make everyone suffer. i believe dahlia's problem for putting them everywher deeply stems from rooted fear and ignorance. She is locked inside a world that she cannot control, but is not harmed from physically, but only mentally. Not only does she live, but she has to emotionally endure her mistake and what it had caused. to me that caused some serious trauma, her self ego of being the messed up mother of the freakin poor child resulted in not only endulging others ignorance but becoming ignorant whenshe knew better, she gave into the insanity.
I also have an opinion that playing the game makes the movie better, i played the game first a few years ago, and was exactict that a movie came out. The movie was so much better than the games.. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 18 Jul 2004
Notes left: 2099
Last seen at: Australia
Quote:
The movie was so much better than the games..



...Holy shit. I really can't believe you actually said that.


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19401
Last seen at: #lfk
>It seems hard to believe that Paradise can come from something like Hell.
Well, this is partially true. The point The Order is trying to get across is much like the Hale Bopp cult: they have the one, true religion and are going to Paradise alone.

In birthing God, they believe it will destroy all of mankind except for the Chosen Ones--they mean them, of course. Afterwards, when everyone is dead & gone, they will remain on Earth--or "Paradise"--alone, and will be able to reorganize society as they deign.

By using this hatred, they'll destroy everything, but The Order believes God will keep Its Chosen Ones for Paradise.

>How do we know for sure she was trying to do this?
Because of Dahlia's words: To seal this town to the abyss, the Mark of Samael. When it is completed all is lost! Even in daytime darkness will cover the sun, the dead will walk and martyrs will burn in the fires of hell! Everyone will die!

Dahlia doesn't want the Virun VII Crest completed simply because, upon its completion, it will seal thish town to the abyss--if that happens: God is dead; everyone will die!; Game Over.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 16 Apr 2006
Notes left: 639
St. Thomas wrote:
>It seems hard to believe that Paradise can come from something like Hell.
Well, this is partially true. The point The Order is trying to get across is much like the Hale Bopp cult: they have the one, true religion and are going to Paradise alone.

In birthing God, they believe it will destroy all of mankind except for the Chosen Ones--they mean them, of course. Afterwards, when everyone is dead & gone, they will remain on Earth--or "Paradise"--alone, and will be able to reorganize society as they deign.

By using this hatred, they'll destroy everything, but The Order believes God will keep Its Chosen Ones for Paradise.

>How do we know for sure she was trying to do this?
Because of Dahlia's words: To seal this town to the abyss, the Mark of Samael. When it is completed all is lost! Even in daytime darkness will cover the sun, the dead will walk and martyrs will burn in the fires of hell! Everyone will die!

Dahlia doesn't want the Virun VII Crest completed simply because, upon its completion, it will seal thish town to the abyss--if that happens: God is dead; everyone will die!; Game Over.


Hmm....it all make sense....but..couldn't it be a possiblity she made that all up to scare and incourage Harry to get Alessa?

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Gravedigger
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Missing since: 13 Mar 2006
Notes left: 573
Last seen at: Nizhniy Novgorod, Russia
Osmund Saddler wrote:
St. Thomas wrote:
>It seems hard to believe that Paradise can come from something like Hell.
Well, this is partially true. The point The Order is trying to get across is much like the Hale Bopp cult: they have the one, true religion and are going to Paradise alone.

In birthing God, they believe it will destroy all of mankind except for the Chosen Ones--they mean them, of course. Afterwards, when everyone is dead & gone, they will remain on Earth--or "Paradise"--alone, and will be able to reorganize society as they deign.

By using this hatred, they'll destroy everything, but The Order believes God will keep Its Chosen Ones for Paradise.

>How do we know for sure she was trying to do this?
Because of Dahlia's words: To seal this town to the abyss, the Mark of Samael. When it is completed all is lost! Even in daytime darkness will cover the sun, the dead will walk and martyrs will burn in the fires of hell! Everyone will die!

Dahlia doesn't want the Virun VII Crest completed simply because, upon its completion, it will seal thish town to the abyss--if that happens: God is dead; everyone will die!; Game Over.


Hmm....it all make sense....but..couldn't it be a possiblity she made that all up to scare and incourage Harry to get Alessa?




You are right.

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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19401
Last seen at: #lfk
That's true, but realize that Alessa did everything to a) prevent God's birth, and b) stop Harry from using the Flauros. Given the content of Silent Hill 3, and what it proves, I don't believe it's anything but the truth.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 03 Apr 2006
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Last seen at: Ohio
ok, one thing i really don't get. Why did Dahlia call it the mark of Samael instead of the Virun VII crest? I don't think the name of the symbol really makes a difference to Harry...


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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Harry's a writer; Harry's intelligent. The name Samael, meaning poison of God, stands out as being especially "demonic." She had to tell Harry something that would make him abet her situation.

Notice that Dahlia tells Harry the truth when it's beneficial to her--such as the name of the Flauros, and that it "can break through the walls of darkness and counteract the wrath of the Underworld." That's essentially true. She tells him where to go when she needs him to be there.

However, she lies about everything involving Alessa. Alessa is not a "demon taking that child's form," et cetera.

By the way: Dahlia does call it the Talisman of Metatron--its other name.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


Last edited by The Adversary on 26 Apr 2006, edited 1 time in total.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 03 Apr 2006
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ah, well thank you, that clears things up a bit.


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 16 Apr 2006
Notes left: 639
St. Thomas wrote:
Harry's a writer; Harry's intelligent. The name Samael, meaning poison of God, stands out as being especially "demonic." She had to tell Harry something that would make him abet her situation.

Notice that Dahlia tells Harry the truth when it's beneficial to her--such as the name of the Flauros, and that it "can break through the walls of darkness and counteract the wrath of the Underworld." That's essentially true. She tells him where to go when she needs him to be there.

However, she lies about everything involving Alessa. Alessa is not a "demon taking that child's form," et cetera.

By the way: Dahlia does call it the Talisman of Metatron--it's other name.


hmm...I guess your right, I just always thought she only wanted to seal herself in the nightmare world where she'll be alone from everyone and Dahlia, I never played S.H. 3, I only played 1,2, and 4.....I can't find SIlent Hill 3 anywhere...i really want to play it though :x

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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19401
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Well, Silent Hill 3 further indicates--yes, Silent Hill 1 does too--that Alessa is suicidal & desires to not only destroy herself, but, more importantly, God.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 16 Apr 2006
Notes left: 639
Thanks for your thoughts, I still don't understand why the ritual wouldn't have produced the real god.....(it is said that it only would make an IMAGE of the god..... remembering back to lost memories....)
Now, this may sound stupid, but this IS a video game after all...anything can happen...right? So wouldnt the ritual make the real deal?

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