Alex's father and Pyramid Head. SPOILERS
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- AuraTwilight
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How do we know that there was a sacrifice at the beginning of the town's history? What if the contract was "Okay, but in fifty years, y'gotta kill some kids, mmkay?" The impression I got was 150, divided by 50 = 3 chillins' slaughterin'.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
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Have you played the game? Before the final battle, there is a room with 4 coffin-like structures. On each are the names of every child that's been sacrificed for each family. There are 4 on each. Alex is included on the Shepherd family's names.
Under the burning sun I take a look around
Imagine if this all came down
Imagine if this all came down
I heard PH is a manifestation of the towns old executioners maybe one of alexs family members where killed by one and alex saw it happen and was traumatized by it thus bringing PH To kill his dad at that last part you see him or maybe alex or adam caused that person to get killed like telling on them or something and they felt guilty i dont know or alex was killed by the PH/the executioner after he killed josh cause his name in on the coffin at the end
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Isn't the Butcher from Silent Hill Origins just a different manifestation of the same monster or deity as PH. That would imply that the "executioner" monster that took the form of PH and Boogeyman has been around since before James conjured him. When James came to town, he created him in PH's image because of the painting and the hooded executioners. In Homecoming, he was manifested by the Order members based on the Boogeyman story, while visually they might have created him as he is for the same reason as James since they have knowledge of Silent Hill's history.
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That's what I did think too. I mean, if James could imagine old executioner to his otherworld, why couldn't Alex?Droo wrote:Also, given that SG Order and SH Order are both from the same source, Adam is also likely aware of Valtiel and the executioners from the past as seen at the Historical Society. Adam could just be manifesting Pyramid Head from his own memories, much like James.
But to answer the another question, yes it was a bit of disapointment not to re-visit the hospital again. It would be cool if Alex would go there and the place would have been different, but the doll would still have been found on the place where they put premature born childs.
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Re: Alex's father and Pyramid Head. SPOILERS
I think there could be two interpretations of the Boogeyman:
1 - Boogeyman represents Adam's true nature.
Evidence leading to this theory is all over the game; Adam being killed by Boogeyman twice, his Boogeyman medallion in the attic, the way he treated Alex as his son, his combat knife, the drawings etc.
2 - Boogeyman is a manifestation of Alex' wrath towards Adam.
As you've noticed, the three remaining high family members, Dr Fitch, Mayor Bartlet & Judge Holloway are all attacked by monster version of their children during the course of the game; and all these manifestations are derived from both the children's affections and the parent's guilt over sacrificing them. Joe Bartlett liked plants & trees, and Bartlet buried him alive, as if "planting" his sin. So mix these two points & 'symbolically' the monster haunting Bartlet is one representing a huge plant.
Scarlet Fitch liked dolls, Dr Fitch baught him dolls everyday -> he is haunted by a doll version of his daughter. (A doll you need to skin to death, as Scarlet was wounded to death.)
Not so much is revealed about Nora Holloway, or that I can remember, but again, Asphyxia represents both Nora's sexuality & her death by suffocation.
Now imagine Adam going through the same procedure, he is haunted by a representation of his child he sacrificed. Although Adam was the one who finally couldn't sacrifice Alex, as Josh's death ruined the Order's ceremony. Now, Adam repents for the harms he's caused for Alex -> he treated Alex like the myth of Boogeyman, as described in the drawings, a heartless executioner wearing a pyramid helmet, which ironically is filled with spikes (as witnessed in the Boogeyman ending) - Alex wasn't sacrificed but he persumably underwent lobotomy during his time in Alchemilla. So the monster haunting Adam is a manifestation of his way of treating Alex & Alex's rage or split personality (one wanitng to prove himself worthy to Adam, & one wanting to kill Adam.). As you can see the Boogeyman's helmet is separable, & he 'slices' Adam to two parts.
And one other thing that leads me to believe the Boogeyman could represent "both" Adam & Alex (in case he doesn't forgive his parents) is that in Silent Hill 2, we could assume that Pyramid Head is a representation of James' true nature: An executioner not brave enough to face his victim, thus wearing the big (burden) pyramid. And we as James, witness Pyramid Head kill Maria more than once as if he's reminding James of his murder.
The same happens in Homecoming, we as Alex see Adam get executioned by the Boogeyman more than once. In this case I think, Boogeyman is not reminding Alex, but warning him of not taking the same path as his father... not becoming the 'third' Boogeyman!
1 - Boogeyman represents Adam's true nature.
Evidence leading to this theory is all over the game; Adam being killed by Boogeyman twice, his Boogeyman medallion in the attic, the way he treated Alex as his son, his combat knife, the drawings etc.
2 - Boogeyman is a manifestation of Alex' wrath towards Adam.
As you've noticed, the three remaining high family members, Dr Fitch, Mayor Bartlet & Judge Holloway are all attacked by monster version of their children during the course of the game; and all these manifestations are derived from both the children's affections and the parent's guilt over sacrificing them. Joe Bartlett liked plants & trees, and Bartlet buried him alive, as if "planting" his sin. So mix these two points & 'symbolically' the monster haunting Bartlet is one representing a huge plant.
Scarlet Fitch liked dolls, Dr Fitch baught him dolls everyday -> he is haunted by a doll version of his daughter. (A doll you need to skin to death, as Scarlet was wounded to death.)
Not so much is revealed about Nora Holloway, or that I can remember, but again, Asphyxia represents both Nora's sexuality & her death by suffocation.
Now imagine Adam going through the same procedure, he is haunted by a representation of his child he sacrificed. Although Adam was the one who finally couldn't sacrifice Alex, as Josh's death ruined the Order's ceremony. Now, Adam repents for the harms he's caused for Alex -> he treated Alex like the myth of Boogeyman, as described in the drawings, a heartless executioner wearing a pyramid helmet, which ironically is filled with spikes (as witnessed in the Boogeyman ending) - Alex wasn't sacrificed but he persumably underwent lobotomy during his time in Alchemilla. So the monster haunting Adam is a manifestation of his way of treating Alex & Alex's rage or split personality (one wanitng to prove himself worthy to Adam, & one wanting to kill Adam.). As you can see the Boogeyman's helmet is separable, & he 'slices' Adam to two parts.
And one other thing that leads me to believe the Boogeyman could represent "both" Adam & Alex (in case he doesn't forgive his parents) is that in Silent Hill 2, we could assume that Pyramid Head is a representation of James' true nature: An executioner not brave enough to face his victim, thus wearing the big (burden) pyramid. And we as James, witness Pyramid Head kill Maria more than once as if he's reminding James of his murder.
The same happens in Homecoming, we as Alex see Adam get executioned by the Boogeyman more than once. In this case I think, Boogeyman is not reminding Alex, but warning him of not taking the same path as his father... not becoming the 'third' Boogeyman!
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Re: Alex's father and Pyramid Head. SPOILERS
Asphyxia's form has nothing to do with Nora's sexuality. The photo of Nora holding a book mentions that she likes the caterpillar from Alice in Wonderland, her favourite book. Hence Asphyxia's appearance. It's sort of caterpillar like, in a twisted way. I like to think that her form, with all the torsos emerging from one another, and the arms grabbing and reaching, is also symbolic of the cycle of one generation murdering one child from the next generation.Returbuliz wrote: As you've noticed, the three remaining high family members, Dr Fitch, Mayor Bartlet & Judge Holloway are all attacked by monster version of their children during the course of the game; and all these manifestations are derived from both the children's affections and the parent's guilt over sacrificing them. Joe Bartlett liked plants & trees, and Bartlet buried him alive, as if "planting" his sin. So mix these two points & 'symbolically' the monster haunting Bartlet is one representing a huge plant.
Scarlet Fitch liked dolls, Dr Fitch baught him dolls everyday -> he is haunted by a doll version of his daughter. (A doll you need to skin to death, as Scarlet was wounded to death.)
Not so much is revealed about Nora Holloway, or that I can remember, but again, Asphyxia represents both Nora's sexuality & her death by suffocation.
Old comment, I know. But I have a reply anyway. I recall seeing the Seal of Metatron on the floor during the twin PH fight in SH2. There's nothing in SH2 to suggest that James or Mary have anything to do with the cult (and I don't recall seeing the Seal in the Historical Society), so it being there could have something to do with the town reusing things from previous peoples minds. Not necessarily just monsters, but anything with enough emotional energy attached to it. Some things could leave an imprint on the otherworld, to be used, seen, heard, or experienced again by someone else.Droo wrote: What if the answer simply is that once the Otherworld has laid claim and made real some horror it finds in there, it can use said creature again for other people, even though they are not the source of the image itself, per se?
Now, about the topic of the thread. I think it might be possible that both Alex and Adam summoned the Boogieman/PH. Both felt guilty, but for different reasons. Deep down Alex would've known and felt guilty about what happened to Josh, hence Alex being pursued by whats-it/PH near the start of the game, while Adam would've felt guilty over how he treated his son, abandoning his duty, and everything that had befallen SG. That doesn't really explain why BM/PH stopped appearing after Adam was killed (unless the player gets the Boogieman ending). To be honest, I'm leaning more towards Adam being the reason why Boogieman/PH exists in Homecoming. Assuming the town or otherworld didn't reuse PH like Droo suggested, it's possible BM/PH's form was created from Adam's mind. After all, he knew about the cult in both SH and SG. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume he knew something of the executioners too.
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Re: Alex's father and Pyramid Head. SPOILERS
I still think that the bogeyman is every boss. He is Asphyxia, sepulchre and Scarlet (As well as amnion). He took forms representative of the children with catalysts (the watch, or the doll for instance) to exact revenge for the sins. Notice you can see/ hear his presence before the first two boss fights. It's not coincidence.
He took the default form of the bogeyman with Adam for two reasons: Adam had not killed his child, and his guild was for ostracizing his child to an extreme. He had planned to murder his own child and failed, and the guilt for that failure and casting the whole town into ruin (as was foretold would happen. If you believe something hard enough, it becomes true) is what summoned his executioner. Since there was no murdered child, the bogeyman exacted the punishment as the storied form of the executioner. Adam's death is symbolic of the reason for his death. He was torn between duty to his religion, and duty to his family. And for that, he was split in two. Twice.
He took the default form of the bogeyman with Adam for two reasons: Adam had not killed his child, and his guild was for ostracizing his child to an extreme. He had planned to murder his own child and failed, and the guilt for that failure and casting the whole town into ruin (as was foretold would happen. If you believe something hard enough, it becomes true) is what summoned his executioner. Since there was no murdered child, the bogeyman exacted the punishment as the storied form of the executioner. Adam's death is symbolic of the reason for his death. He was torn between duty to his religion, and duty to his family. And for that, he was split in two. Twice.
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Maybe his sacrifice was staged. The bogeyman comes from the fairytales that were told to the children to keep them in fear. ( They exist due to alex remembering the tales as a child)jthomp1286 wrote:Have you played the game? Before the final battle, there is a room with 4 coffin-like structures. On each are the names of every child that's been sacrificed for each family. There are 4 on each. Alex is included on the Shepherd family's names.
Thats the origin of the bogeyman.
The creature kills alex's dad because alex harbours hateful/angry feelings toward his father, and they are projected through Bogeyman.
The monster in essence is more personal to alex as Phead is to james.
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Re: Alex's father and Pyramid Head. SPOILERS
i love youpaladin181 wrote:I still think that the bogeyman is every boss. He is Asphyxia, sepulchre and Scarlet (As well as amnion). He took forms representative of the children with catalysts (the watch, or the doll for instance) to exact revenge for the sins. Notice you can see/ hear his presence before the first two boss fights. It's not coincidence.
He took the default form of the bogeyman with Adam for two reasons: Adam had not killed his child, and his guild was for ostracizing his child to an extreme. He had planned to murder his own child and failed, and the guilt for that failure and casting the whole town into ruin (as was foretold would happen. If you believe something hard enough, it becomes true) is what summoned his executioner. Since there was no murdered child, the bogeyman exacted the punishment as the storied form of the executioner. Adam's death is symbolic of the reason for his death. He was torn between duty to his religion, and duty to his family. And for that, he was split in two. Twice.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
Re: Alex's father and Pyramid Head. SPOILERS
i dont love you Paladin, but i like your take on Homecomng.AuraTwilight wrote:i love youpaladin181 wrote:I still think that the bogeyman is every boss. He is Asphyxia, sepulchre and Scarlet (As well as amnion). He took forms representative of the children with catalysts (the watch, or the doll for instance) to exact revenge for the sins. Notice you can see/ hear his presence before the first two boss fights. It's not coincidence.
He took the default form of the bogeyman with Adam for two reasons: Adam had not killed his child, and his guild was for ostracizing his child to an extreme. He had planned to murder his own child and failed, and the guilt for that failure and casting the whole town into ruin (as was foretold would happen. If you believe something hard enough, it becomes true) is what summoned his executioner. Since there was no murdered child, the bogeyman exacted the punishment as the storied form of the executioner. Adam's death is symbolic of the reason for his death. He was torn between duty to his religion, and duty to his family. And for that, he was split in two. Twice.
- Returbuliz
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Re: Alex's father and Pyramid Head. SPOILERS
I guess you're right about Asphyxia, I hadn't paid enough attention to that photo.Soulless-Shadow wrote:Asphyxia's form has nothing to do with Nora's sexuality. The photo of Nora holding a book mentions that she likes the caterpillar from Alice in Wonderland, her favourite book. Hence Asphyxia's appearance. It's sort of caterpillar like, in a twisted way. I like to think that her form, with all the torsos emerging from one another, and the arms grabbing and reaching, is also symbolic of the cycle of one generation murdering one child from the next generation.Returbuliz wrote: As you've noticed, the three remaining high family members, Dr Fitch, Mayor Bartlet & Judge Holloway are all attacked by monster version of their children during the course of the game; and all these manifestations are derived from both the children's affections and the parent's guilt over sacrificing them. Joe Bartlett liked plants & trees, and Bartlet buried him alive, as if "planting" his sin. So mix these two points & 'symbolically' the monster haunting Bartlet is one representing a huge plant.
Scarlet Fitch liked dolls, Dr Fitch baught him dolls everyday -> he is haunted by a doll version of his daughter. (A doll you need to skin to death, as Scarlet was wounded to death.)
Not so much is revealed about Nora Holloway, or that I can remember, but again, Asphyxia represents both Nora's sexuality & her death by suffocation.
.
What you're saying makes sense, thx.
And by sexuality, i was referring to the monster's form, which is like a mature version of her. But your explanation is better.
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Re: Alex's father and Pyramid Head. SPOILERS
That's a pretty good theory. It would also explain why the boogieman seemingly disappears from the game, for no apparent reason. Rather than being a poorly done cameo he could actually have a little more depth than some of us think.paladin181 wrote:I still think that the bogeyman is every boss. He is Asphyxia, sepulchre and Scarlet (As well as amnion). He took forms representative of the children with catalysts (the watch, or the doll for instance) to exact revenge for the sins. Notice you can see/ hear his presence before the first two boss fights. It's not coincidence.
He took the default form of the bogeyman with Adam for two reasons: Adam had not killed his child, and his guild was for ostracizing his child to an extreme. He had planned to murder his own child and failed, and the guilt for that failure and casting the whole town into ruin (as was foretold would happen. If you believe something hard enough, it becomes true) is what summoned his executioner. Since there was no murdered child, the bogeyman exacted the punishment as the storied form of the executioner. Adam's death is symbolic of the reason for his death. He was torn between duty to his religion, and duty to his family. And for that, he was split in two. Twice.
I haven't really got any idea why Asphyxia seems more mature in terms of body shape than Nora herself. But Asphyxia isn't the only boss like that. Scarlet also has breasts. Why? I don't know. I've read some odd theories, about her relationship with her father though.Returbuliz wrote: I guess you're right about Asphyxia, I hadn't paid enough attention to that photo.
What you're saying makes sense, thx.
And by sexuality, i was referring to the monster's form, which is like a mature version of her. But your explanation is better.
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Re: Alex's father and Pyramid Head. SPOILERS
The Scarlet boss is just a bigger version of the little doll, hence the breasts, I guess.Soulless-Shadow wrote:I haven't really got any idea why Asphyxia seems more mature in terms of body shape than Nora herself. But Asphyxia isn't the only boss like that. Scarlet also has breasts. Why? I don't know. I've read some odd theories, about her relationship with her father though.Returbuliz wrote: I guess you're right about Asphyxia, I hadn't paid enough attention to that photo.
What you're saying makes sense, thx.
And by sexuality, i was referring to the monster's form, which is like a mature version of her. But your explanation is better.
But then again there's a sexual aspect in all Silent Hill games, especially this one.
I mean, look at all those openings resembling a vagina, (like the ones during Asphyxia battle sequence), Siam (Shades of James, & Maria of course!!), Lurker etc.
It's all symbolic, I mean maybe there's more to Asphyxia's desgin, or Nora. I remember there was a thread here about the unused voice files homecoming, there might have been more to Nora's story.
One thing that surprises me, is that the Boogeyman is one of the non-sexual monsters in the game; non-sexuality, i mean including his acts. That's why he's different from SH2's Pyramid Head imo.
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Re: Alex's father and Pyramid Head. SPOILERS
i wanna lickz you scrotum.AuraTwilight wrote:i love youpaladin181 wrote:I still think that the bogeyman is every boss. He is Asphyxia, sepulchre and Scarlet (As well as amnion). He took forms representative of the children with catalysts (the watch, or the doll for instance) to exact revenge for the sins. Notice you can see/ hear his presence before the first two boss fights. It's not coincidence.
He took the default form of the bogeyman with Adam for two reasons: Adam had not killed his child, and his guild was for ostracizing his child to an extreme. He had planned to murder his own child and failed, and the guilt for that failure and casting the whole town into ruin (as was foretold would happen. If you believe something hard enough, it becomes true) is what summoned his executioner. Since there was no murdered child, the bogeyman exacted the punishment as the storied form of the executioner. Adam's death is symbolic of the reason for his death. He was torn between duty to his religion, and duty to his family. And for that, he was split in two. Twice.
That's pretty interesting. Boogeyman taking the form of all the bosses. You know what, I think he had a definite reason for being there then
Re: Alex's father and Pyramid Head. SPOILERS
Fixed for you.Soulless-Shadow wrote:Scarlet also has breasts. Why? I don't know. I've read some stupid theories, about her relationship with her father though.
Also: Have I said that Paladin's theories on the Boogeyman subject are damn interesting? Probably not. There you go then.
Re: Alex's father and Pyramid Head. SPOILERS
In my view,
It's blatantly obvious that the bosses represent the children who were sacrificed by their parents:
Joey loved his tree house and his father buried him alive, hence Sepulcher being represented in the form of a giant tree like structure.
Scarlet loved dolls and I think it's suggested that Dr. Fitch slit her throat, hence the reason he would be cutting himself to atone, Scarlet takes the form of a giant porcelain doll, somewhat sexualized which leads to question her father's "relationship" with her.
Nora was smothered/suffocated by Judge Holloway, hence the name Asphyxia and the manner in which Alex kills her, it was mentioned earlier that Nora loved caterpillars hence her manifestation as a caterpillar like being, which in my opinion also embodies some of the earlier sacrifices made by the founding families.
Amnion's face closely resembles that of Joshua's and Alex's mother, as well as Josh's love for spiders, his drowning (being entombed in his mothers womb), and the second form's arms closely resmble the strange medical contraption hanging over Alex in the beginning "nightmare" perhaps representing Alex's realization of his mental-hospitalization.
The last "boss" being Pyramid Head/Bogeyman:
In my opinion the begging level is representative of Alex's time in the mental hospital after the death of Joshua, the doctor pushing Alex into the operating room is obviously modeled after, or directly represents Adam, hence the foreshadowing that is Pyramid Head cutting Adam in half later in the game/story. It's well known that Pyramid Head in Silent Hill 2 is a manifestation of Jame's desire for punishment for his sins. This is the reason I believe it's so important that in Homecoming, he is "The Bogeyman" not "That red pyramid thing" we know as Pyramid Head although the being may serve the same purpose, I don't believe it's representative of the same things that it was in SH2, I believe that The Bogeyman is there less as a manner of Alex's anger towards his father or Adam's desire for punishment but more-so of the God directly or the founding families as a whole, Adam is being punished for his failure, wehter he believes he deserves it or not is debatable but, IN MY OPINION, The Bogeyman is a being manifested and used to punish Adam for his failure, not a representation of Alex's anger or Adam's sorrow at hurting his son.
I believe that the opening level is literally Alex in the mental hospital before returning home and NOT a nightmare, The Bogeyman killing Adam/The Doctor seems to be a wake up call for Alex to escape, the mental wall is broken and he sees himself fit to go and continue his "duty" of saving Josh. Wether or not Alex is discharged from the hospital or he escapes is something I have never been able to rationalize with the details provided in the story/game but I strongly believe that the opening scene is a playthrough of Alex's psyche, his ignorance towards the true nature of things and instead seeing the hospital as a hellish nightmare which he must escape to complete his duty.
Finally, there's one thing I want to throw out to you guys that I've been thinking about:
Could it be possible that the beginning of the game is actually THE END of the game?
This would explain why Alex would have a memory of Adam being split by the Bogeyman.
This entire level may just represent Alex's continued relapse towards constantly re-realizing his brother's death ala Shutter Island.
Alex could be trapped in a prison of reliving his sins and realizations over and over.
Fin.
If anyone reads all that or can make sense of my rambling, I love them.
It's blatantly obvious that the bosses represent the children who were sacrificed by their parents:
Joey loved his tree house and his father buried him alive, hence Sepulcher being represented in the form of a giant tree like structure.
Scarlet loved dolls and I think it's suggested that Dr. Fitch slit her throat, hence the reason he would be cutting himself to atone, Scarlet takes the form of a giant porcelain doll, somewhat sexualized which leads to question her father's "relationship" with her.
Nora was smothered/suffocated by Judge Holloway, hence the name Asphyxia and the manner in which Alex kills her, it was mentioned earlier that Nora loved caterpillars hence her manifestation as a caterpillar like being, which in my opinion also embodies some of the earlier sacrifices made by the founding families.
Amnion's face closely resembles that of Joshua's and Alex's mother, as well as Josh's love for spiders, his drowning (being entombed in his mothers womb), and the second form's arms closely resmble the strange medical contraption hanging over Alex in the beginning "nightmare" perhaps representing Alex's realization of his mental-hospitalization.
The last "boss" being Pyramid Head/Bogeyman:
In my opinion the begging level is representative of Alex's time in the mental hospital after the death of Joshua, the doctor pushing Alex into the operating room is obviously modeled after, or directly represents Adam, hence the foreshadowing that is Pyramid Head cutting Adam in half later in the game/story. It's well known that Pyramid Head in Silent Hill 2 is a manifestation of Jame's desire for punishment for his sins. This is the reason I believe it's so important that in Homecoming, he is "The Bogeyman" not "That red pyramid thing" we know as Pyramid Head although the being may serve the same purpose, I don't believe it's representative of the same things that it was in SH2, I believe that The Bogeyman is there less as a manner of Alex's anger towards his father or Adam's desire for punishment but more-so of the God directly or the founding families as a whole, Adam is being punished for his failure, wehter he believes he deserves it or not is debatable but, IN MY OPINION, The Bogeyman is a being manifested and used to punish Adam for his failure, not a representation of Alex's anger or Adam's sorrow at hurting his son.
I believe that the opening level is literally Alex in the mental hospital before returning home and NOT a nightmare, The Bogeyman killing Adam/The Doctor seems to be a wake up call for Alex to escape, the mental wall is broken and he sees himself fit to go and continue his "duty" of saving Josh. Wether or not Alex is discharged from the hospital or he escapes is something I have never been able to rationalize with the details provided in the story/game but I strongly believe that the opening scene is a playthrough of Alex's psyche, his ignorance towards the true nature of things and instead seeing the hospital as a hellish nightmare which he must escape to complete his duty.
Finally, there's one thing I want to throw out to you guys that I've been thinking about:
Could it be possible that the beginning of the game is actually THE END of the game?
This would explain why Alex would have a memory of Adam being split by the Bogeyman.
This entire level may just represent Alex's continued relapse towards constantly re-realizing his brother's death ala Shutter Island.
Alex could be trapped in a prison of reliving his sins and realizations over and over.
Fin.
If anyone reads all that or can make sense of my rambling, I love them.
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