Search FAQ

Login | Register


All times are UTC [ DST ]


It is currently 26 Sep 2017




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 80 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
Author Message

SHH Cult Subscriber
SHH Cult Subscriber
 Post subject: Re:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
Notes left: 4060
Last seen at: Carrollton, TX
Pamuyo wrote:
sidrawings wrote:
I haven't read anything here reading into the reason WHY Alex took Josh out into the middle of the lake anyway.

It struck my as really odd, and it seem like there was more too it then Alex just being rebellious. He's expresses a worry of being seen (asking Josh for his flashlight) and really bullies Josh and acts very mean.

The only things I can think of at the moment is that Alex just wanted to spend time with Josh since he was usually not aloud to hang around with him much.
Or, while I doubt this, that he maybe wanted to take Alex away in the middle of the night/early morning and not come back. (Since they didn't seem to have anything for "running away" I don't think this is true either)

Alex wanted his brother to show him the ring that Adam gave Josh. (Alex was likely eavesdropping when Josh received it since the other flashbacks are clearly Alex's own memories) Naturally Alex didn't want to be seen because, as Josh puts it, "Dad'll freak if he finds out." If Adam knew what his eldest son was up to, he'd freak twice. This is a good reason Alex would want to be out of the house where he couldn't be overheard.

Alex does seem to be bullying Josh, but he phrases it carefully to manipulate his brother into showing off the ring. Alex doesn't say "You're a baby," he says "Dad thinks you're a baby." The result: Josh whips out the ring and says "ORLY?" His later antics, calling the ring crap and keeping it away from Josh, are based in his jealousy, and not really any worse behavior than you could expect between two brothers, despite the tragic consequences.


Top
   
 

Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: the sacrifices!!! *huge spoilers*
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 565
Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
I think that the reason of Josh's death hides two sides, more specifically: the double-motif perspective as in SH2 (certainly, since SHH is usually interpreted as a blatant copy of SH2). In SH2, there are two actual possible motifs to why James killed Mary. One is that he killed her for love and pity: to end the suffering. The other one is rather a consequence of James' sexual frustration. The same here goes for Alex: one aspect of Alex's act is the 'accident' interpretation, however, the other one is Alex's jealousy and frustration over his parents' disregard.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: the sacrifices!!! *huge spoilers*
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11371
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
The problem is that Josh's death was a legitimate accident, and Alex didn't intend for anything to happen at all except for a little bit of bullying and brotherly teasing over favoritism. The dual-motif thing falls flat if there's no conflict of interest.

And James' problem with Mary wasn't so much sexual frustration so much as her illness consuming BOTH of their lives. I'd like to think James isn't that petty.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: the sacrifices!!! *huge spoilers*
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 23 Dec 2009
Notes left: 207
Last seen at: Silent Hill.
Glenn wrote:
I understand that the four founders of Shepherd's Glen needed to sacrafice a child every 50 years to appease the Gods. Josh died and Adam needed to still sacrafice Alex to continue the tradition. But killing Alex would have ended the Shepherd lineage, so 50 years after there would be no Shepherd child to kill. But didn't the Bartlett family only have 1 child-- Joey that was killed? How would the Bartlett lineage continue since there were no more Bartlett children, and wouldn't that have disrupted the contract? Also was there some limit to the amount of children they could have? I feel like the more children the more you could choose which one was more "undeserving" to live.

I just finished the game again today and have some thoughts...


AuraTwilight wrote:
It's kind of a plothole. I suppose everyone was supposed to have a new baby after the ritual or something.


Is it ever actually stated that Fitch and Bartlett only had one child each? The absence of brothers or sisters doesn't mean that Scarlet and Joey were the only child in their respective families. Fitch and Bartlett were both old enough at the time of their deaths (55 and 49 respectively) to have had adult offspring who left Shepherd's Glen just after adolescence.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: the sacrifices!!! *huge spoilers*
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11371
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Dummied out notes include Scarlet's diary, where she very strongly insinuates that she's an only child. So, there's that.

Either way, the complete and utter absence of any possible other children, even as adults, makes this a plothole by omission.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: the sacrifices!!! *huge spoilers*
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 23 Dec 2009
Notes left: 207
Last seen at: Silent Hill.
AuraTwilight wrote:
Dummied out notes include Scarlet's diary, where she very strongly insinuates that she's an only child. So, there's that.

I think I remember you mentioning that before. Anyway, that settles it.


Top
   
 

Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: the sacrifices!!! *huge spoilers*
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 565
Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
AuraTwilight wrote:
The problem is that Josh's death was a legitimate accident, and Alex didn't intend for anything to happen at all except for a little bit of bullying and brotherly teasing over favoritism

Yes, but what is the reason of why he brought him there. The accentuation of Alex's behavior, i.e. the 'brotherly bullying' within the context of the SG's community condition, obviously rises some suspicion about the motif, as why he brought him to the lake. I'm not arguing that it wasn't a legitimate accident, however, the conditions that lead to the accident were not circumastantial.

AuraTwilight wrote:
And James' problem with Mary wasn't so much sexual frustration so much as her illness consuming BOTH of their lives
And one of the factors that consumed James' life was sexual frustration.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: the sacrifices!!! *huge spoilers*
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11371
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
Yes, but what is the reason of why he brought him there. The accentuation of Alex's behavior, i.e. the 'brotherly bullying' within the context of the SG's community condition, obviously rises some suspicion about the motif, as why he brought him to the lake. I'm not arguing that it wasn't a legitimate accident, however, the conditions that lead to the accident were not circumastantial.


Motive, not motif.

And the motive is simple jealousy. There's nothing malicious or out of the ordinary. All over the world, big brothers take little brothers out to scare them and tease them over something so they'll do what they want, like share the cool thing they saw Dad give them. It's so commonplace and innocuous that it shouldn't be raising any of your alarm bells.

Quote:
And one of the factors that consumed James' life was sexual frustration.


It's a distracting issue, more than anything else. He's only sexually frustrated because he's loyal to Mary and only wants her, but he can't because of his illness. The sexual frustration is just an ugly way of saying that James can't express his love with his wife the way they used to.

It's not like he killed her so he could go fuck hookers.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: the sacrifices!!! *huge spoilers*
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 565
Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
AuraTwilight wrote:
It's so commonplace and innocuous that it shouldn't be raising any of your alarm bells.
Yeah, but a place in which the community schematically sacrifies their children for the prevention of God's wrath isn't so common and innocuous. That's also why I said: 'brotherly bullying' within the context of the SG's community condition. It is true that the cultists tried to keep things quiet, but it's not so impossible to believe that someone could find anything about it.
AuraTwilight wrote:
The sexual frustration is just an ugly way of saying that James can't express his love with his wife the way they used to.
And if you ask me, the realistic way.
AuraTwilight wrote:
It's not like he killed her so he could go fuck hookers.
I never said that.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: the sacrifices!!! *huge spoilers*
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11371
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
Yeah, but a place in which the community schematically sacrifies their children for the prevention of God's wrath isn't so common and innocuous. That's also why I said: 'brotherly bullying' within the context of the SG's community condition. It is true that the cultists tried to keep things quiet, but it's not so impossible to believe that someone could find anything about it.


Neither Alex or Joshua are aware of this, so it's completely irrelevant to their personal context.

Quote:
And if you ask me, the realistic way.


The point is that his sexual frustration did not motivate his actions. If anything, his mind barely drifted to sex because of the immense pain, struggle, hardship, and stress of taking care of a dying person who lashes out at you emotionally.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: the sacrifices!!! *huge spoilers*
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 565
Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
AuraTwilight wrote:
Neither Alex or Joshua are aware of this, so it's completely irrelevant to their personal context.
It's true that your statement is generally conceived that way, yes, however, I can't think of one solid reason of why Alex wouldn't have had at least a hunch of the bittest fraction of what had been happening at the time. I'm not starting a big argument here, nor am I trying to open a new revolutionary theory. I was just playing with the thought that deals with the fact that some implicative similarities could be present between the two titles, since many things were blatantly copied.

And if there was no possible way Alex could have known anything about the actual Order, the pretty intensive and irrational disregard towards Alex (from Adam and Lillian) could cause some black thoughts or wishes about a solution with murder.

I was just saying that his natural “hate“ towards his brother could later cause a greater guilt engine exactly because of this previous contempt. And that would be the other part of the double-aspect, that is the inevitability.

AuraTwilight wrote:
The point is that his sexual frustration did not motivate his actions. If anything, his mind barely drifted to sex because of the immense pain, struggle, hardship, and stress of taking care of a dying person who lashes out at you emotionally.
I simply don't agree with you. The aspect of sex and death are the exact factors that lead him to kill Mary. Yes, she was kind of a bitch and yes, he couldn't love her the way he used to.

However, the great disequilibrium between James' eros and thanatos concepts were an important factor in his act. When I say that sex is one of the reasons of why he killed her, I don't simply mean that he pulled the trigger because he couldn't screw her anymore or so he could go screw hookers. Sexual frustration is much more complex than it sounds. The aspect of sex also implies life. And there was no life between them as it was used to be. All that lead to James' act.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: the sacrifices!!! *huge spoilers*
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11371
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
It's true that your statement is generally conceived that way, yes, however, I can't think of one solid reason of why Alex wouldn't have had at least a hunch of the bittest fraction of what had been happening at the time.


Hm...you're wondering how two parents having a clear favorite doesn't lead to Alex concluding "The founders of this town have been ritualistically murdering children every generation"?

Quote:
And if there was no possible way Alex could have known anything about the actual Order, the pretty intensive and irrational disregard towards Alex (from Adam and Lillian) could cause some black thoughts or wishes about a solution with murder.


And again, we have no reason to think Alex was harboring murderous thoughts because he never tries to kill Joshua. Every harm that comes his way is completely accidental, regardless of what Alex was planning to do. There is no evidence that Alex wanted to hurt Joshua, and he completely loses his shit when he does. Occam's Razor.

Quote:
I simply don't agree with you. The aspect of sex and death are the exact factors that lead him to kill Mary. Yes, she was kind of a bitch and yes, he couldn't love her the way he used to.

However, the great disequilibrium between James' eros and thanatos concepts were an important factor in his act.


I'm just going to point out that the Eros and Thanatos concepts are WAAAY bigger than sex and death, so I'm already not confident that your reasoning is founded in anything concrete.

Quote:
When I say that sex is one of the reasons of why he killed her, I don't simply mean that he pulled the trigger because he couldn't screw her anymore or so he could go screw hookers. Sexual frustration is much more complex than it sounds. The aspect of sex also implies life. And there was no life between them as it was used to be. All that lead to James' act.


Again, I would say that their lives being ruined is MUCH more important than James' sexual frustration. It's just a shorthand symbol for not being able to enjoy Mary.

When he comments on his memories of her throughout the game, nothing sexual ever comes into it. He talks about how they spent all day staring at the water, or that he loved to hear her play the piano even though she was terrible. Indeed, when he's confronted with the sexual advances of Maria, he's uncomfortable about it.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: the sacrifices!!! *huge spoilers*
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 565
Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
As much as it regards Alex, I'll drop it, as I never intended to make a big fuss out of it. My simple speculation was based on this: James killed Mary to end her suffering=Josh's death was a simple acccident; James killed Mary so he could end his suffering (basically end his sexual frustration)=Josh's death was caused by Alex's malintention (frustrated because of being completely neglected).

AuraTwilight wrote:
I'm just going to point out that the Eros and Thanatos concepts are WAAAY bigger than sex and death, so I'm already not confident that your reasoning is founded in anything concrete.

When Mary got ill, his urge to screw (or enjoy the wonders of love, if you wish) enhanced. As you said, their marriage consumed both of them. He needed a catalyst and couldn't find one. In the end, James had two motives to kill her: 1. the traditional one, that is, to end her suffering; 2. to eliminate his sexual frustration; because, as we agreed previously, James didn't want give up to the temptation of hookers. The true is, that the eros concept, the urge to have sex (roughly said) is linked to the concept of life (as sex is life by that theory) , therefore, it is an urge to live. And that is natural, as every day James had to watch Mary's suffering, watch the way she progressively died and watch the way their marriage died. It's normal that such urge formed, an urge which is basically represented by sex. Later on, after his act, the thanatos aspect arrived in his life, caused by guilt.

AuraTwilight wrote:
Again, I would say that their lives being ruined is MUCH more important than James' sexual frustration.
Again, their lives being ruined are a part of James' sexual frustration, as I just stated.

AuraTwilight wrote:
When he comments on his memories of her throughout the game, nothing sexual ever comes into it.
Exactly, that's why we have Maria.

AuraTwilight wrote:
Indeed, when he's confronted with the sexual advances of Maria, he's uncomfortable about it.
And? I mean, what? If he doesn't jump on her it means that he's not sexually frustrated?

That way I can ask you why does he state that he would never kill himself or why his behaviour shows so much contradiction towards suicide. Now, does that mean he shows no tract of suicidal thoughts? I don't get it. The answer here is repression. He represses his urge to die (thanatos) and so he represses his urge to live / make love (eros). Urges, by themselves, are embodied through manifestations (e.g. monsters, Maria) as the subject that feels them, James, actually represses them. That's the whole purpose of monsters and manifestations. I don't understand where were you going with this?

_________________
Image


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: the sacrifices!!! *huge spoilers*
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11371
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Forget it, this is getting off-topic.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: the sacrifices!!! *huge spoilers*
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 20 Apr 2008
Notes left: 481
Last seen at: England.
Judge Holloway was consumed with rage and fear. I mean, look at the town. She probably got more and more fucked up over those two years Alex wasn't around and when she saw him, it probably stirred that crazy up all over again.

I don't think it had anything to do with the original contract, she was just mad as hell that all those sacrifices were in vain.

_________________
I have a Youtube account where I sometimes post SH related videos. www.youtube.com/user/severeth

http://www.last.fm/user/Severeth


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: the sacrifices!!! *huge spoilers*
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 22 Jun 2006
Notes left: 1924
Last seen at: Katz Street
@mikefile - It doesn't seem you understand the human psyche very well..but I bet you enjoy those mystery movies, huh. lol You really should just listen to Aura, but I guess everyone can believe what they like.

As fot Holloway and the sacrifices, it all seemed so cartooney and had too many plot holes for me to take it seriously. I honestly see no point in looking deeper when characterisations are inconsistent in places and the game just lacking any true skill in the writing department. Granted, they tried, and I have looked a bit deeper, but not much was there.
I feel that anything born from this game is just headcanon and basically pointless.
I do give props to the opening though, but only for it's slick forshadowing.(Even though that's a plot hole in itself..)

_________________
Image
WARNING: Some Parts of Reality May Seem Violent or Cruel.


Top
   
 

Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: the sacrifices!!! *huge spoilers*
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 565
Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
Quote:
@mikefile - It doesn't seem you understand the human psyche very well..but I bet you enjoy those mystery movies, huh. lol
First of all, your supposedly witty comment has really no concrete backup. If you wanted to criticize my reasoning you could have at least present something more than just YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND remarks.

Secondly, mystery movies? For real?

_________________
Image


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: the sacrifices!!! *huge spoilers*
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 22 Jun 2006
Notes left: 1924
Last seen at: Katz Street
What could I present to you that hasn't been presented? I didn't pop in to debate or agrue, and i'm not going to. You've shown your not willing to budge from your stances, and it's honestly not worth the effort to try. You're free to believe in what you please, as I said in that same comment. So it's no big issue as it is.
Also, the "mystery movie" joke was due to your perceptions of Alex and James's motives for their respective crime/accident.
But feel free to get back on track with the topic. I'm not taking it off any further.

_________________
Image
WARNING: Some Parts of Reality May Seem Violent or Cruel.


Top
   
 

SHH Cult Subscriber
SHH Cult Subscriber
 Post subject: Re: the sacrifices!!! *huge spoilers*
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
Notes left: 4060
Last seen at: Carrollton, TX
The off-topic argument was dropped five months ago and you felt the need to bring it back up just to bait mikefile with a petty insult. If you could maybe not do stuff like that anymore, I'd be ever so grateful. :)


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: the sacrifices!!! *huge spoilers*
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 22 Jun 2006
Notes left: 1924
Last seen at: Katz Street
^ I also didn't look at the date of the posts, so it was new as far as I could tell. But my mistake.
Also, I said two sentances about mikefile, the rest of my post was about my thoughts on the sacrifices and Holloway. So the actual point of my post clearly wasn't to bait mikefile. They were just, again, my thoughts on the situation (that I didn't see was dropped five months ago. lol).

_________________
Image
WARNING: Some Parts of Reality May Seem Violent or Cruel.


Top
   
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 80 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: