Man Versus... Man?

[The Adversary]

>When did they ever suggest otherwise in the other games?
See, here we go w/ that "no evidence ≠ evidence" thing. You can't say a scenario is possible because nothing says it's not possible.

Why has this become so prevalent lately?

[AuraTwilight]

I both like it and dislike it. I've always been a proponent of the theory that, in killing "monsters," we've actually been killing people. If we go by this game, that's true, and the horror of what we've been doing since SH1 becomes excruciating

That said, openly killing obviously human enemies? Eh. I can do that in other games.

So the animal-like monsters are flying/crawling humans? And why are all these humans trying to kill you? And why are they in fucking ass-backwards locations like in the sewers or random hospital rooms? Silent Hill is plenty populated, so why are only SOME people taking the form of monsters and others are just NOT FUCKING THERE? Why do they obey subconscious commands from the people manifesting them?

The theory doesn't hold up under any sort of examination. Monsters aren't people unless specifically said otherwise.

[Grimwar]

In Silent Hill 3, Vincent responds to Heather's accusations of the monsters as "Oh, you see them as monsters?!" (laughs) She never says they are people specifically. He or the other order members just doesn't see them as monsters is all.

They could be jellybeans or angels, who knows Vincent is as insane as any other member of the order.

But never did he actually point them out to be human. People's clairity one what is seen from one person to the next seems to vary, not only from person to person but it almost seems like from one scene to another.

Of course you can argue that the 'prophecy' that Claudia stated "...through blood stained hands" would mean Heather would have to kill (humans?). But I don't think thats what it meant. It more meant that Heather's innocence about the world would be shattered. And I also believe the cult unknowningly was prophecising about thier own doom and not realizing it. Heather's only blood stains came from the dismantling of the Order leadership in SH3...which well almost brought the 'god' thing - but not quite.

Anyway. The people in SHH are people. The monsters are monsters. Really no other text or speech in the game to indicate otherwise.

[The Adversary]

>"Oh, you see them as monsters?!" (laughs)
Vincent is a lying liar who lies. He manipulates people to get what he wants, and he says what people want to hear. This instance is no different: He tells Heather, oh, j/k lulz and then smirks like a lying liar.

We know that he doesn't see the monsters, but he does see other people. The only humanoid monsters in the game are the Scrapers (as seen in the chapel, where Vincent is), the Missionary, and Leonard. a) Leonard opposed the Sect of the Holy Woman, the sect Vincent belonged to; b) the Missionary willingly gave up his life because Claudia asked him to, probably by telling him, oh hey, the mother of god is gonna kill you, so you'll go straight to the paradise; c) the Scrapers are just like the Missionary, and were likewise promised the same afterlife.

Additionally, Lost Memories: Silent Hill Chronicle states that these creatures were "transfigured" into how they appear now.

[lain of the wired]

See, here we go w/ that "no evidence ≠ evidence" thing. You can't say a scenario is possible because nothing says it's not possible.

I didn't. I asked what leads you to believe it, not "OMG but no 1 evr sayd it coudnt b!"

Silent Hill is plenty populated, so why are only SOME people taking the form of monsters and others are just NOT FUCKING THERE? Why do they obey subconscious commands from the people manifesting them?

See, this is why I specifically said "please don't yell," and tried to make it as non-threatening, passive sounding as I could. I just asked, that's all. I never said the lack of evidence proved anything. I merely asked. I'm on your side, remember? I'm asking because I'm actually open to other possibilities. I'm curious, that's all. I like the idea- I didn't say that's the end-all be-all of what the monsters are. I'm not waving around a claim. I'm asking why.

Could we use inside voices now, please? And maybe not assume that I've reverted to assanine stupidity?

[AuraTwilight]

We know that he doesn't see the monsters

This is my first hearing of that. Since even Douglas sees them, this statement is pretty suspect.

See, this is why I specifically said "please don't yell," and tried to make it as non-threatening, passive sounding as I could. I just asked, that's all. I never said the lack of evidence proved anything. I merely asked. I'm on your side, remember? I'm asking because I'm actually open to other possibilities. I'm curious, that's all. I like the idea- I didn't say that's the end-all be-all of what the monsters are. I'm not waving around a claim. I'm asking why.

Could we use inside voices now, please? And maybe not assume that I've reverted to assanine stupidity?

I'm not yelling, I'm just placing emphasis because italics bother the hell out of me most of the time. You should know that better than most forumers.

[lain of the wired]

The cussing in all caps threw me off a bit. Y'know, since you don't seem to do that unless you're about to tear the target a new one with undeniable logic. Which I'm not sure I would deserve.

[AuraTwilight]

Pssh. No, I curse like a fucking sailor anyway. Probably because I dress in those little sailor school girl uniforms on a regular basis and I focus on the cursing aspect to avoid fetishism.

[The Adversary]

>I didn't. I asked what leads you to believe it, not "OMG but no 1 evr sayd it coudnt b!"
You suggested, from what my reading, that all of the monsters are transfigured humans.

>And maybe not assume that I've reverted to assanine stupidity?
Please tell me your version of asinine was a mistake. . . .

[l33tspaniard]

I'm on your side, remember?

Whatever you say, Vincent

I'm roughly 412% certain that Vincent sees SOMETHING where Heather sees monsters...otherwise he wouldn't have mentioned the whole "step on them blah blah blah" thing.

[lain of the wired]

>I didn't. I asked what leads you to believe it, not "OMG but no 1 evr sayd it coudnt b!"
You suggested, from what my reading, that all of the monsters are transfigured humans.

>And maybe not assume that I've reverted to assanine stupidity?
Please tell me your version of asinine was a mistake. . . .

"C" often has to be pounded upon before it'll register, while "S," "D" and "X" tend to stick. Probably got soda on the keyboard. The "A," however, I'll accept responsibility for.

Even I recognize that dogs and bugs couldn't possibly be transfigured humans. Likewise, certain bosses- including in SH5- couldn't be, either. Here, the bosses seem closer to individual vengence/punishment made manifest, if anything. SH3 was the first one of the series I ever got interested in, so I suppose the rest of the games have been tinted by that for me. Either way, I suppose I ought to have better phrased my comment. Something told me I'd be jumped upon for it all through Developmental Psych... which made it difficult to take proper notes.

May I try again? Or have we strayed too far from the initial topic?

EDIT: I seem to have remembered something that may change what I said about dogs. We'll see what that means in terms of potential argument, I guess. Assuming there will be one.

[aj4x94]

The theory where each of the SH protagonists are actually killing people instead of monsters always scares me, because then its as if they're insane. But I guess that's what makes it interesting. Getting back to the topic, while I didn't really like the fact that the Order soldiers were dressed like the movie ones, it made me feel alot better by finishing them off with the axe.

[pj]

My problem wasn't necessarily the Order as enemies--although I thought they looked pretty ridiculous in their mining outfits. Honestly, I thought it was a clever enough touch on DH's part to have them not trigger the radio. That gave them a bit of an edge that made me pretty uneasy in an otherwise unremarkable and not-really-scary level (talking about the power plant here).

My problem is that, honestly, I'm kind of sick of The Order in general. I really feel like they were pretty much defeated in SH3, and their last back-up plan was taken care of in SH4. I feel like their inclusions into the story is just getting repetitive and dull, honestly. Yes, in Homecoming we have some deliciously evil and twisted Order members that make great villains, but come on, honestly, SH has explored all of this already. Yes, the cultists in Homecoming are fucking insane and willing to sacrifice their own children: but so was Dahlia. And we saw the things they did to children already anyway in the Water Prison in SH4. I couldn't help but feel like Homecoming's exploration of the Order really just kind of underlined things we already knew about them.

I really think The Order plotlines have run thin and its time to abandon them. By continuing to give The Order such prominence, we're making them the villains instead of the town. It makes it seem like The Order created Silent Hill, while I feel like its really the other way around. And while, yes, they're despicable and villainous and all that, what really made their inclusion in SH1 and SH3 important was when the Order members came to the realization that they were completely fucking wrong about the amount of control they thought they had over the powers in Silent Hill. In those games, The Order's inclusion in the plots and their eventual realization that, at the end of the day, they were just as much at the mercy of the town as the heroes were, emphasized that the town of Silent Hill is the one in control here. I loved that feeling, and I think that's completely absent from Homecoming.

I'm not attacking Homecoming here, though--SH3 is guilty of this sin as far as I'm concerned. Every time these games throw the Order into the mix, we end up with two clearly defined camps of good and bad guys. While that makes for a pretty gripping story the first time through, it doesn't offer the kind of depth that Silent Hill 2 gave us. Instead of having a group of batshit crazy villains and a group of do-gooders, that game threw three insane murderers into the town, gave us control of one of them, and forced us to examine the shades of grey between the three of them. It was complex and interesting and had a sophistication that I feel like SH3 and Homecoming really lack. Give me that kind of exploration of moral ambiguity over Good Guys Vs. The Order any day.

Even all that aside, though, if we keep going on with the Order like this, there's no end to how many stories we can pull out of our you-know-whats about different sects splitting off from the Order and continuing their crazy cultist activities and blah blah blah. Before you know it we'll be at Silent Hill 50: Claudia's Niece's Bad Hair Day. I think the Order's been done, let's drop it and explore the other things Silent Hill does to people.

[AuraTwilight]

My problem is that, honestly, I'm kind of sick of The Order in general. I really feel like they were pretty much defeated in SH3, and their last back-up plan was taken care of in SH4. I feel like their inclusions into the story is just getting repetitive and dull, honestly. Yes, in Homecoming we have some deliciously evil and twisted Order members that make great villains, but come on, honestly, SH has explored all of this already. Yes, the cultists in Homecoming are fucking insane and willing to sacrifice their own children: but so was Dahlia. And we saw the things they did to children already anyway in the Water Prison in SH4. I couldn't help but feel like Homecoming's exploration of the Order really just kind of underlined things we already knew about them.

Atleast they gave us an entirely new sect to deal with and, to be honest? I didn't see the child sacrifice thing coming until I accidentally got spoiled.

I really think The Order plotlines have run thin and its time to abandon them. By continuing to give The Order such prominence, we're making them the villains instead of the town. It makes it seem like The Order created Silent Hill, while I feel like its really the other way around. And while, yes, they're despicable and villainous and all that, what really made their inclusion in SH1 and SH3 important was when the Order members came to the realization that they were completely fucking wrong about the amount of control they thought they had over the powers in Silent Hill. In those games, The Order's inclusion in the plots and their eventual realization that, at the end of the day, they were just as much at the mercy of the town as the heroes were, emphasized that the town of Silent Hill is the one in control here. I loved that feeling, and I think that's completely absent from Homecoming.

I disagree. The town was never the villain, it was the setting; the cult feels like a villain, as it should, as a strong motif is that the only demons and monsters are the ones within us, imo.

I'm not attacking Homecoming here, though--SH3 is guilty of this sin as far as I'm concerned. Every time these games throw the Order into the mix, we end up with two clearly defined camps of good and bad guys. While that makes for a pretty gripping story the first time through, it doesn't offer the kind of depth that Silent Hill 2 gave us. Instead of having a group of batshit crazy villains and a group of do-gooders, that game threw three insane murderers into the town, gave us control of one of them, and forced us to examine the shades of grey between the three of them. It was complex and interesting and had a sophistication that I feel like SH3 and Homecoming really lack. Give me that kind of exploration of moral ambiguity over Good Guys Vs. The Order any day.

I think we all agree that we totally need more of SH2's awesomeness. However, the problem is that there's very little you can do to get that same feeling again. SH2 was great because no one saw the twist coming and it totally flipped us on our asses. And really, once you cover "I killed my most beloved" where do you go from there? How can you possibly top that? Plus, judging by fanfics, coming up with new SH2-style plots isn't as easy as it sounds.

Even all that aside, though, if we keep going on with the Order like this, there's no end to how many stories we can pull out of our you-know-whats about different sects splitting off from the Order and continuing their crazy cultist activities and blah blah blah. Before you know it we'll be at Silent Hill 50: Claudia's Niece's Bad Hair Day. I think the Order's been done, let's drop it and explore the other things Silent Hill does to people.

I agree. My suggestion is to get to a new town with similar powers and start fresh with cameos and connections just to assure people it's the same universe.

[pj]

Atleast they gave us an entirely new sect to deal with and, to be honest? I didn't see the child sacrifice thing coming until I accidentally got spoiled.

Yeah, but like I said, I'm getting sick of new branches of this cult. I'm starting to feel like they're just creating new sects left and right for the plot's convenience. And I completely agree, I didn't see the child sacrifice thing coming in this story either--I want to make it clear that I think Homecoming told its story very, very well. The problem is, that when the child sacrifice thing was revealed, I wasn't really that shocked, or at least not as shocked as I should have been (or at least, as the story seemed to expect me to be). Because we've already seen how far these cultists will go--we know that child sacrifice is not beyond them, because this isn't their first stab at it.

I disagree. The town was never the villain, it was the setting; the cult feels like a villain, as it should, as a strong motif is that the only demons and monsters are the ones within us, imo.

Well, that's pretty open for debate I think, but to be fair I didn't mean to suggest that the town was just an evil freaking place from the start of time, just because. I think human cruelty probably made it the way it is, but I DON'T think the Order can claim full responsibility. We've been given plenty of clues that tell us there's been a strong undercurrent of human cruelty throughout most of the town's history. So, I agree that the evil comes from within humanity, but IMO the cult is more of a tool or an element than it is the root of the town's evil. I've always felt a distinct impression in these games that the town was alive

I think we all agree that we totally need more of SH2's awesomeness. However, the problem is that there's very little you can do to get that same feeling again. SH2 was great because no one saw the twist coming and it totally flipped us on our asses. And really, once you cover "I killed my most beloved" where do you go from there? How can you possibly top that? Plus, judging by fanfics, coming up with new SH2-style plots isn't as easy as it sounds.

Haha, yeah, everyone could use a little more SH2. But I'm not suggesting they pour their heart and soul into trying to top SH2, because that's just going to result in a contrived failure no matter how they approach it. Instead, think about how they must have approached SH2 when they first made the game--they'd just finished SH1, a story rife with demons and cult conspiracies and drug trafficking and so on, and they decided to go in a COMPLETELY different direction, setting almost everything but the town itself on the sideline. And of course their result was a masterpiece.

My reason for bringing this up is that I think one of the things that allowed them to create a game as fresh and powerful as SH2 is that they, at some point during early development, had to have decided to take this car in a completely different direction. That had to be incredibly liberating from a creative standpoint, and I would bet that creative freedom played a big factor in just how well that game turned out.

I don't know if any of you are in creative professions, but I'm a designer myself, and one of the most important parts about getting your creative juices flowing is allow yourself to just explore completely different directions. Even if what you come up with while you're "exploring" or "playing" is completely crap and unusable, it allows you to come back to your task with a fresh eye and evaluate alternatives you couldn't see before. I think that's what they did with SH2. It was probably very tempting for them to just continue the cultist plots, but instead they tried something different. They seem to have tried for the same thing with The Room, but the result was just more flawed (and it was essentially tied into the cult, anyway).

Long story short, I'm not saying they should worry about topping past games--they should worry more about exploring completely new grounds with future games.

I agree. My suggestion is to get to a new town with similar powers and start fresh with cameos and connections just to assure people it's the same universe.

You know, I gotta say, I'd like to see something like that myself. I think approaching the series in a completely different way like this would be a very good thing--it would allow for completely fresh and unexpected things to develop. Because come on, let's face it, that's what attracted us all to the Silent Hill games in the first place--it was the completely unpredictable, out-of-this-world crazy shit that we'd simply never seen before.

[game_over]

I really don't understand why It would be a choice with Wheeler.. I mean, if theres a friggin medpack there... and hes dying... who in their right mind (okay, that kind of explains why Alex had to decide) would let him die?

Yahtzee Croshaw?

[AuraTwilight]

Yeah, but like I said, I'm getting sick of new branches of this cult. I'm starting to feel like they're just creating new sects left and right for the plot's convenience.

Oh please, this is the first sect branch that's been significantly different enough.

Well, that's pretty open for debate I think, but to be fair I didn't mean to suggest that the town was just an evil freaking place from the start of time, just because. I think human cruelty probably made it the way it is, but I DON'T think the Order can claim full responsibility. We've been given plenty of clues that tell us there's been a strong undercurrent of human cruelty throughout most of the town's history. So, I agree that the evil comes from within humanity, but IMO the cult is more of a tool or an element than it is the root of the town's evil. I've always felt a distinct impression in these games that the town was alive

Oh, no, no, no, I didn't mean to say the cult was the ontological antagonist, either. They're just the biggest example of how the real monsters are human beings. Nothing Silent Hill can conjure is more terrifying than what people like the Order members will do for their own desires, religious or otherwise. I don't believe the town is alive or evil in any shape or form. It's merely a mirror. It's showing us what we are while remaining perfectly clear and pure.

You know, I gotta say, I'd like to see something like that myself. I think approaching the series in a completely different way like this would be a very good thing--it would allow for completely fresh and unexpected things to develop. Because come on, let's face it, that's what attracted us all to the Silent Hill games in the first place--it was the completely unpredictable, out-of-this-world crazy shit that we'd simply never seen before.

Right, and there's not much more you can do with the physical town of Silent Hill. Best to leave it alone now, in my opinon.

[pj]

Oh please, this is the first sect branch that's been significantly different enough.

How is it significantly more different than the other sect branches? I mean, sure they've got the regular sacrifice thing going, but the other sects each have things that differentiate them from one another too. Maybe I missed something huge, but I don't see why this one's somehow completely different just because they decided to move to the next town over (and aside from the fact that an entire game revolves around them)

Oh, no, no, no, I didn't mean to say the cult was the ontological antagonist, either. They're just the biggest example of how the real monsters are human beings. Nothing Silent Hill can conjure is more terrifying than what people like the Order members will do for their own desires, religious or otherwise. I don't believe the town is alive or evil in any shape or form. It's merely a mirror. It's showing us what we are while remaining perfectly clear and pure.

I like the mirror analogy, because I always kind of thought of the town in the same kind of way, only as more of a sort of sponge--it soaks up all the negative vibes of the people, amplifies them, and feeds them back to the people, who in turn amplify it back, and it continues to grow in this kind of cycle. Where we differ is I don't think the town's pure and clean anymore, but there's really nothing in the series to prove either of us right (which is why its fun to think and talk about it, of course). What makes me feel like the town's alive--aside from all the talk in SH2 of the town "calling" people to it--is the Otherworld environments of the first four games. They always seem so organic and fleshy that it always felt to me like you were exploring the insides of a living thing. But again that could just be the town reflecting human characteristics, so it could really support either of our theories.

Right, and there's not much more you can do with the physical town of Silent Hill. Best to leave it alone now, in my opinon.

Agreed

[AuraTwilight]

How is it significantly more different than the other sect branches? I mean, sure they've got the regular sacrifice thing going, but the other sects each have things that differentiate them from one another too. Maybe I missed something huge, but I don't see why this one's somehow completely different just because they decided to move to the next town over (and aside from the fact that an entire game revolves around them)

They're the only sect that decided separating entirely was the right thing to do. The others get along fairly well. In analogy, the main sects are like sects of Christianity, while the Shepherd's Glenn sect are like...Mormons, I guess.

I like the mirror analogy, because I always kind of thought of the town in the same kind of way, only as more of a sort of sponge--it soaks up all the negative vibes of the people, amplifies them, and feeds them back to the people, who in turn amplify it back, and it continues to grow in this kind of cycle. Where we differ is I don't think the town's pure and clean anymore, but there's really nothing in the series to prove either of us right (which is why its fun to think and talk about it, of course). What makes me feel like the town's alive--aside from all the talk in SH2 of the town "calling" people to it--is the Otherworld environments of the first four games. They always seem so organic and fleshy that it always felt to me like you were exploring the insides of a living thing. But again that could just be the town reflecting human characteristics, so it could really support either of our theories.

I agree it's a sponge, I was using the mirror analogy to showcase the reflection aspect of it's power. It absorbs and mirrors back, but I don't think it necessarily amplifies in a loop. Nor do I maintain it's really so much "pure and clean" as it is "not dark." I don't think it's really one or the other, it just IS. The "Calling" aspect never bought me. Lots of non-sentient entities can call, like a magnet. And being organic and fleshy I've always interpretted as "going inside yourself", since it's reflecting you. Also, you say "first four games", but the Otherworld we see in SH4 isn't the same as the one connected to Silent Hill; Walter created it as his own personal kingdom.

[pj]

They're the only sect that decided separating entirely was the right thing to do. The others get along fairly well. In analogy, the main sects are like sects of Christianity, while the Shepherd's Glenn sect are like...Mormons, I guess.

Hm. Well, I still stand by my point. The cult's just starting to feel redundant to me, and I think the Silent Hill series is a fantastic opportunity to explore the darkness of other groups of people.

I agree it's a sponge, I was using the mirror analogy to showcase the reflection aspect of it's power. It absorbs and mirrors back, but I don't think it necessarily amplifies in a loop. Nor do I maintain it's really so much "pure and clean" as it is "not dark." I don't think it's really one or the other, it just IS. The "Calling" aspect never bought me. Lots of non-sentient entities can call, like a magnet. And being organic and fleshy I've always interpretted as "going inside yourself", since it's reflecting you. Also, you say "first four games", but the Otherworld we see in SH4 isn't the same as the one connected to Silent Hill; Walter created it as his own personal kingdom.

Regarding SH4's Otherworld, Walter's Otherworld is unique to himself, sure, but I think you could argue that all of the Otheworlds in each game are unique to the people they revolve around. Alessa's was her own personal kingdom, James' Otherworld was different from Angela's and Eddie's (although the three different Otherworlds had a tendency to overlap into one another--James kept finding the bodies of Eddie's victims, and he saw Angela's abstract daddy and the fire from her Otherworld), Heather and Douglas seemed to be experiencing a different Otherworld than Claudia and Vincent, and then we have Walter's Otherworld. I think they're all unique Otherworlds, but I don't think that Walter's Otherworld is somehow different or disconnected from the powers of Silent Hill. Especially considering that it was Dahlia who put the idea of the 21 sacraments into little Walter's head. I always understood that the creation of these alternate realities was one of the town's "abilities," for lack of a better world, and that each of the characters are manipulating this power from the town to create their alternate reality Otherworlds.

Beginning to stray from the point here, but aside from that, I always found it interesting that Henry was beginning to have an impact on Walter's Otherworld as well. Even though its not an enormous change, I do think the room in the hospital where Eileen's enormous head has burst through the wall and is just staring at Henry proves that Henry's own guilt and reservations about his voyeurism were beginning to have some influence on Walter's Otherworld. Of course, I'm not arguing that the Otherworld isn't Walters--I just find it really interesting that people can effect each other's Otherworlds. But I think what made SH4's Otherworld unique was that you were trapped in someone else's Otherworld, not that it was somehow not related to Silent Hill.