Curtis the clock man.

[Glazarus]

I don't have to go to a fucking screenwriting seminar to know what a story arc is. It's a continuation of a storyline through more than one work. AKA Final Fucking Fantasy doesn't have a story arc, considering that they take place in different worlds. Lord of the Fucking Rings has a story arc that spans three novels.

So, then you do understand my point that a story arc needs to be followed and can't be changed in it's basics because then it undermines the entire arc?
Silent Hill as a very thick red line throughout. Even Silent Hill 2 follows the same arc as the other games.

Sarcasm is unnecessary, why do it? Why mix it in with something that you want to be taken seriously... and sarcasm doesn't work well in textform, I think you know that.

Is that an attempt to de-humanize me because I enjoyed Homecoming so that must also mean I carve up woman and dance around in their skins with my peter tucked in?

It was to explain that if you are that type, you will have a hard time understanding my premise about why Hostel isn't considered good art.
It may be because you said this:

We get off on this shit, don't deny it.

I'm so done. You dance around actually answering questions or debating. Seriously. Read back through the posts. You've just told people they're wrong because you're smart and they're wrong because they like Hostel and you're right because you've gone to screenwriting seminars and have worked on films no one has even heard of.

I have only answered to the answers I got from my first posts. It's easy to blame me, but I'm not the one that fill their arguments with "fucking jerk"-like attacks.
The level of seriousness is very questionable among others but me. I've kept a serious tone throughout, you have just been speaking as a frustrated teenager.
So how to answer such low standard answers? How can I counter people who know little about the references I'm making? It's hard to keep a level of seriousness when all I get is "fucking jerk"- premises...

I've never stated that I'm smart, I've stated that I have experience in screenwriting, theatre and filmmaking. That's not the same thing.
But thank you if you think that I'm smart.

Of course you've never heard of it because you don't live in this country. Not everything is Hollywood, just to educate something.

So the connection between what you said, and the argument behind it is simply... I need to replay 1-4 around fourty times before I have a sudden "loss of innocence" so to speak about Silent Hill and I'll understand everything about it, and suddenly realize what a steaming pile of shit Homecoming is?

No, just no.

No, I was merly refering to those who've written over 100 pages of theories about the first 1-4 games in those parts of this forum. I think that before throwing something out about those games, it would be a good thing to have played them alot and discussed their stories alot. Otherwise you are just putting yourself in a position where you may make a huge mistake by refering to something that is completely wrong about the earlier games. If that happens a whole premise of yours can fall... which puts you in a moron-position, especially if you call someone an idiot in the same sentence...

And stop bringing up these little spews about how you've worked in the film industry for so many years and omfg. So has Uwe Bohl, and we all know how fantastic he is. They're not valid. Unless you're linking me to "generic site that completely fucks over homecoming and its screenwriting" I'm really not interested in chatting with you.

I don't care about your scientist friends. I don't care about movie's you've worked on.

When you bring these things up, you look less educated and more like the pretentious, starving artists that hole themselves up in cafes the world over.

The ONLY reason I brought that up was because of a certain person who made false statements and said things like this

No proof that anyone in that stafflist is you. And regardless, I said storyboarder, not filmmaker. Did you write the script for that movie? No? Then shut the fuck up and learn to read. GEEZE, can you read? Am I talking to a brick wall? Apparently I'm talking to a stupid illiterate brick wall who masturbates to Hostel.

Whenever someone says "shut the fuck up" and make false statements about me I get a bit angry, I think most do. But I don't punch so low that I say "shut the fuck up", I merly explained that I really do work with this shit.
But some just seem to get a hard on by saying "fuck" as many times as possible.
Don't be that kind of asshole, for your own sake...

[TheRedOne]

People, don't you think this has gotten a bit too personal? Maybe we should all just stick with the games and NOT question the opposing side's intelligence or taste.

[Glazarus]

Well, I did not walk down that path, I leave that to those who think that is part of a serious conversation.

[AuraTwilight]

People, don't you think this has gotten a bit too personal? Maybe we should all just stick with the games and NOT question the opposing side's intelligence or taste.

Well, I did not walk down that path, I leave that to those who think that is part of a serious conversation.

Am I talking to a brick wall?

Learn to read, please.

I'm sorry, Glazarus, you were saying?

[TheRedOne]

You becomes just as much an ass as you try and make me be.

[Glazarus]

or you were off shitting your last meal, or what?

Then you don't know what I'm talking about, don't pretend to.

You're not a goddamned storyboarder or a film critic, stop acting like one.

Did you write the script for that movie? No? Then shut the fuck up and learn to read. GEEZE, can you read? Am I talking to a brick wall? Apparently I'm talking to a stupid illiterate brick wall who masturbates to Hostel.

you look less educated and more like the pretentious, starving artists that hole themselves up in cafes the world over.

And the "shut the fuck up" things... I dunno, "brick wall" is a good metaphor for someone who doesn't even care to read before posting, but these? Hmm, I don't know what kind of path you took but if brick wall was worse then I'm sorry for that.
So, you were quoting...?

[AuraTwilight]

And the "shut the fuck up" things... I dunno, "brick wall" is a good metaphor for someone who doesn't even care to read before posting, but these? Hmm, I don't know what kind of path you took but if brick wall was worse then I'm sorry for that.
So, you were quoting...?

You do realize that those are all over the top parodies of how you've been conducting yourself the entirety of your membership on this forum, right? I mean, that second to last one is cut-and-snip copypasta.

[Glazarus]

the entirety of your membership on this forum

I've been a member longer then you and I did say sorry about "brick wall", but you call it parody so I might take it back. The quotes are from you mostly so yes, it's copypaste, just as you did with mine.

I'm not the one getting pissed all the time. I told my opinions and my analysis of Homecoming, while you for the most part countered with straight forward opinions rather then any analysis.
When I told a counter-argument to that, it started to get a bit whiny. So who's really keeping a level of grown-upness?

[Morbid.Marionette]

FRANKLY I THINK YOU BOTH ARE TAKING THIS ARGUMENT WAY TO FAR!

If you want to argue please take it someplace else and get back onto topic please!
And don't give me any "I've been on topic, bla, bla, bla. . ."
Because while few things that were spoken were on topic several more, that outnumber that, were not.

[AuraTwilight]

I've been a member longer then you

doesn't stop me from reading your old posts.

The quotes are from you mostly so yes, it's copypaste, just as you did with mine.

No, I meant the second to last quote was a bunch of copypastings of you in a new message. But nevermind.

I'm not the one getting pissed all the time. I told my opinions and my analysis of Homecoming, while you for the most part countered with straight forward opinions rather then any analysis.

Hey, now, I gave my analysis and opinions. You just disagreed with it and called me a Hostel fan.

When I told a counter-argument to that, it started to get a bit whiny. So who's really keeping a level of grown-upness?

Fair enough, but that's only because I didn't consider you worth the courtesy since you were already getting snippy and uppity with everyone disagreeing with you.

I'm done. Grow up, sir.

[Glazarus]

Hey, now, I gave my analysis and opinions. You just disagreed with it and called me a Hostel fan.

You didn't give any analysis, you gave a personal opinion to let's say the discussion about art. I contributed with a philosophical premise on what art is and you responded with only a personal opinion. If we only give our personal opinions we will be arguing and throwing fists for an eternity, catch my drift?

To discuss what art is and to discuss a quality of something is a sensitive matter and it's better to read something twice and post after putting as much feelings as possible aside instead of just flaming the first chance you get.

Try to remember that we are discussing in text form and most of us is hiding behind a mask (though I presented both name and occupation, so now I don't really have a mask). If we had this discussion in real life it would have been pretty hilarious if you started screaming "you're no got damn filmmaker, shut the fuck up". Most often people get punched in the eye for something like that as well.

Think twice before discussing something that for the most part is based on opinions. How do filmreviewers and philosophers discuss certain films without getting into a fight? They accept different opinions and try to listen to what's objective about a statement. Doing so you can change opinions.

When I saw "Signs" the first time I really liked it. But after som discussion with someone who disliked it I realized that there are some stuff in it that's really making it bleak and it has hidden patriotic messages that would make Saving Private Ryan look bleak in comparison. I totally shifted my opinion based on these objective observations, because they weren't opinions, they were an objective analysis.

That's why reading twice is good.


So going back to the topic as Morbid wanted:

What is up with Curtis? He is the most random character in the game, you're given very little information about him and you only see him for a very short time in the beginning of the game, and a bit more at the end.

So I want to know what's your thoughts on him?

I would like to know how we can discuss without getting into what we got into?
To sum what I've been saying:

Subjectives: I think he is over the top, especially in the Hostel-like scene that in my opinion has nothing to do with Silent Hill. It's sloppy written and badly performed.

Objectives: He has no real meaning in the story, he is only a grunt who gets too much attention as a character. The psychological depth ends with his need to fix things and that's as much as it gets. The impact to the story would be almost nothing if they erased him completely from the screenplay. Because the story is written in a traditional dramaturgy, there's a rule that justifies that: if you can take away a character without any impact on the story or other characters arcs, then that character has no foundation and purpose of being in the story. Take Sean Bean in the Silent Hill movie, his purpose is non more then getting more backstory, which was told anyway in the end.
The Hostel-like scene in the end was there because of the interests young audiences has for such movies today. It had nothing to do with the story or the world of Silent Hill. It was also a break from the "what you don't see scares" tradition that made Silent Hill into what it is. It's mentioned and explored in the "making of Silent Hill 2". The example of the Richard Death scene brought up the question of if Team Silent really followed this themselves and even though it is a deathscene, it's no more a visual deathscene then the one when Maria gets stabbed in Silent Hill 2 by the two Pyramid Heads infront of James. It's just the death of a character, even though a slow death it's not the taunting torture that Judge and Curtis did. Judge didn't even kill, she drilled not to kill but only for the purpose of torture, which was a bit strange when it is the actual killing that would help the town and relieve them from their judgment.
Curtis on the other hand didn't have any purpose for killing Elle and especially no purpose of psychological torture. Comparing with the same type of character in films, they are only a plot device to make a certain character scream, mostly motivate the main character to be fast in saving her/him.
So curtis is a plot device for a scene that breaks the tradition of horror that was established in Silent Hill and Silent Hill 2.

Subjective again: Double Helix is stupyfying the brilliant approach to horror that Team Silent created. They do it in the typical american way of splatter, action and stupid lines like "you sick fuck". The slow paced almost Tarkovsky-ian storytelling both in lines and audiovisual storytelling that made Silent Hill, especially the second game into the brilliant work of art it is, is in Homecoming ereased to a moneytalking art direction without originality and characters like curtis who has no point of being in the story, only for the purpose of being a plot device for a scene that is totally unnecessary in every way except for selling more copies to those bloodthirsty hostel-fans that make up the majority of todays teens.

A good idea would be to listen to how Team Silent talks about their approach to making Silent Hill 2 in the making of dvd. The way they think about horror and storytelling in games is much more intelligent then listening to Double Helix talk about Homecoming. You can practically see the dollar signs in their eyes and listening to them speak fills you up with a feeling that they missed the point of what makes a good Silent Hill game good, so much that they shot themselves in the creative part of their brain in favor of copying things straight away into a "pretender" game.
Where is the creative part? Where is the knowledge about storytelling that would erase a character like Curtis? It's so obvious that Double Helix missed the point of what Silent Hill is about.


There you go, both subjective's and objective's...

[nobody]

Wow what a huge letdown. Always hoping for new ideas and impulses in these threads and then it's just this catfight again...

[Goodlikesweeper]

A good idea would be to listen to how Team Silent talks about their approach to making Silent Hill 2 in the making of dvd. The way they think about horror and storytelling in games is much more intelligent then listening to Double Helix talk about Homecoming. You can practically see the dollar signs in their eyes and listening to them speak fills you up with a feeling that they missed the point of what makes a good Silent Hill game good, so much that they shot themselves in the creative part of their brain in favor of copying things straight away into a "pretender" game.
Where is the creative part? Where is the knowledge about storytelling that would erase a character like Curtis? It's so obvious that Double Helix missed the point of what Silent Hill is about. .

Yeah,I agree 100%.

"Who needs creativity when we can make lots of money by copying other people's ideas!"

That was DH's approach.And if this were ANY other game,I wouldn't care because I'm used to it.That is how things work these days.But damn it,this is a Silnet Hill game we are talking about!They allways were better that that!

Its all over Glazarus.Its time that we face the fact-Silent Hill isn't better that that anymore.You have a movie and two games,what more proof do you want?Its all over.Silen't Hill is money now for Konami.

The right approach Tem Silent had is what made their games so good(besides their unimaginable creativity).They wanted to make art, and guess what - they did it!

Double Helix just wanted money.And well,they did it too,I hope they are happy.But I'm not...


Lol,And now Pyramid Head is Konami's money milking whore,poor Masahiro Ito,look what they did to his wonderfull creation...I mean,is there actually anyone on this world who is scared by this movie version of PH?I LOL-ed whille watching that scene with him in a hotel in Homecoming.

And I don't want to waste my time arguing or anything,I have delt with it.I just wanted to say a couple of words and support you because I'm upset by this too.

[Glazarus]

and then it's just this catfight again...

You didn't even read my post, I went back to the topic, this time with clear headlines on what's subjective and what's objective so that the line won't become blurry as before and create catfights.

If you read the post you may find something new there... if you read it, like Goodlikesweeper here did.

Lol,And now Pyramid Head is Konami's money milking whore,poor Masahiro Ito,look what they did to his wonderfull creation...I mean,is there actually anyone on this world who is scared by this movie version of PH?I LOL-ed whille watching that scene with him in a hotel in Homecoming.

Fear is difficult to master, which team silent realized when working with Silent Hill 2. That's why they spent time and money into researching the human mind, what scares us, how to create something that "shake the human heart", as they put it in the making of.

...seems I need to do this all the time now, but
subjective: The difference between the fear in having a guy like curtis walking around a tied up woman with a circular saw, saying "boo" and "I'm gonna kill ya" and the kind of psychological fear in Silent Hill 2 where small subliminal references are made to Mary and what James did and deserves is that the latter is really felt deep down, while the first is more of a disgust feeling with a "what's gonna happen next" suspense. While some may like this I think it's just shallow. It doesn't relate to anything within us, it's not about relating to our own emotions and experiences in life. Well, except for those who's been in the hands of a real serial killer and survived... although I think they would be ordered by their therapist to never watch this kind of stuff.
To really scare people, deep down within us and really do it with a masters hand, the fear needs to be about something real, something we can relate to. We can relate to James feelings and when the entire story, the monsters and enviroments is based on these feelings it's relatable.
When we feel his loss and everyone seem to say that he never did love her and that he deserves how the town treats him, we can really feel this with him.
So to dump in a scene like the one in which curtis and judge torture the protagonists and the entire story turns into an action, kill all the miners and save the princess kind of story, it's not psychological horror anymore; it's a hollywood run of the mill actionfest.

...on the subjective side

[nobody]

You didn't even read my post, I went back to the topic, this time with clear headlines on what's subjective and what's objective so that the line won't become blurry as before and create catfights.

If you read the post you may find something new there... if you read it, like Goodlikesweeper here did.

How do you know i didn't read your post? I did, but there was nothing new, really. I know you tried, tried so hard.
But i liked your split personality show. the professional objective glazarus and the subjective glazarus.


And I wasn't even aiming [especially] on you with my post, since - sorry but i have to say that - your post hasn't been the only new post in my absence and you're not the center of the universe.

and damn it again you raveld my into this. fuck

[Glazarus]

your post hasn't been the only new post in my absence and you're not the center of the universe.

But I've been the center of a flamewar allied attack, so is it that strange to feel pinned when you say it directly after my post... no.

How do you know i didn't read your post? I did, but there was nothing new, really. I know you tried, tried so hard.
But i liked your split personality show. the professional objective glazarus and the subjective glazarus.

I get back to topic and try to kickstart the discussion again... the topic was curtis and I discussed curtis. Strangely you say

you're not the center of the universe.

...and then only talks about me... me me me...

Stop complaining when you put me in that spot, cheeses fries...

[nobody]

But I've been the center of a flamewar allied attack, so is it that strange to feel pinned when you say it directly after my post... no.

Obviously yes. Browse the topic again, i always use quotes when referring to a certain thing.

...and then only talks about me... me me me...

since you were bitching [again], addressing me, i shouldn't have answered. right.

Stop complaining when you put me in that spot, cheeses fries...

as i said, misinterpretation. get over it.

[Morbid.Marionette]

Thank you Glazarus, for opinion on the topic of "Curtis the Clockman."

I do have to argue though that: No character gets Too much attention, in fact I think lesser characters don't get enough attention.
(Which in turn is why I brought up this subject.)

And I agree with about Curtis being an unimportant character, BUT he is a character and he is in the game and I don't want to believe that he is in the game for one "Hostel-like scene in the end. . ." ". . .because of the interests young audiences has for such movies today. . ."
(Note: I've never seen Hostel, but I have seen a plethora of other Horror movies so I think I get the idea.)

But then more I think about it, the more I agree with you (about him being used for ". . .a plot device to make a certain character scream, mostly motivate the main character to be fast in saving her/him.") Which I believed was very useful, 'cause I would never have found her if she wasn't screaming like that.
xD

But because I'm constantly contradicting myself on this subject, it makes me wonder: Why have Curtis at all in the game just for this scene? When they could of just used a random Order member.
So with that logic couldn't Curtis have more of a porpoise than just being a crazy masochist?

- - - - -
On the subject of the Judge: ". . . didn't even kill, she drilled not to kill but only for the purpose of torture, which was a bit strange when it is the actual killing that would help the town and relieve them from their judgment."

You're right, the is strange of the Judge not to kill Alex right off the bat, you know? Like she did with Lillian and Adam, it's not like she was pissed by the fact that she had killed her child and gotten nothing in return or the fact that the hole town went to hell. It's not like in her mind she may have believed that maybe it was all the Shepard's fault and wanted revenge.
Sorry Hun, it's kind of obvious by the time the "drill scene" happens that she's become cold and unforgiving, plus she's had quite some time to dwell on the subject. I think wanting revenge is kind of theme and is appropriate for the Judge.

[Glazarus]

I do have to argue though that: No character gets Too much attention, in fact I think lesser characters don't get enough attention.
(Which in turn is why I brought up this subject.)

In a way I agree with you, if they cared enough to create a real character and give that character more time to be establish and, well, recive some life, then both wheeler and curtis might have been more interesting. Though wheeler needs to be less badly stereotypical as well.

And I agree with about Curtis being an unimportant character, BUT he is a character and he is in the game and I don't want to believe that he is in the game for one "Hostel-like scene in the end. . ." ". . .because of the interests young audiences has for such movies today. . ."
(Note: I've never seen Hostel, but I have seen a plethora of other Horror movies so I think I get the idea.)

Just because a character is in the game doesn't mean that it can't be for a trivial reason. There isn't much to it then the scene in the end. Even his morbid desire to "fix things" is kinda badly stereotypical. I recall have seen that in a few movies.
And Hostel is aan old splatter movie in a better dress... most modern horror movies is splatter and slasher-movies in better wrapping. It doesn't give them quality though, only a nicer package.

Which I believed was very useful, 'cause I would never have found her if she wasn't screaming like that.

Must she scream and must the player need to run and slash through a small army of miners? What happened to the slow paced psychological horror?
It could have been carried out much better.

But because I'm constantly contradicting myself on this subject, it makes me wonder: Why have Curtis at all in the game just for this scene? When they could of just used a random Order member.
So with that logic couldn't Curtis have more of a porpoise than just being a crazy masochist?

Why does some writers in hollywood write bad screenplays? Why was Sean Bean in the Silent Hill movie? He's there because the producers said "there aren't any men in this story, we need more men". So they wrote in the men and Sean Bean's character was squeezed in there because of it. He is also an unnecessary character, exactly what is his purpose to the story? To get more background of the town? We get alot of that in the end anyway...
Because of the generally bad screenplay for Homecoming, it's no surprise that there are some characters who's importance is non-existing.
Team Silent might have written som awkward dialogue, but at least it gave the games atmosphere and at the same time they wrote hell of alot more layers to both characters and the stories told.

Sorry Hun, it's kind of obvious by the time the "drill scene" happens that she's become cold and unforgiving, plus she's had quite some time to dwell on the subject. I think wanting revenge is kind of theme and is appropriate for the Judge.

Exactly what is this place? Where they strap up people and torture them?
This entire part of the story is badly written. Revenge was a subject that echoed throughout Silent Hill 3, but it was carried out much better and with much more depth. Having the character drill through the leg of Alex isn't good screenwriting in terms of revenge, it's just for the sake of gore. I could come up with 100 better ways to have the revenge act be more in-character and psychologically interesting. These parts of the story are so copyed from the kind of movies like Hostel and Saw that I'm surprised that people try to find a reason or purpose for them. They have no purpose and if it is indeed as everyone say, for the sake of revenge against Alex, then I'm surprised if people find that to be good storytelling, the way it was carried out...

[Morbid.Marionette]

Though wheeler needs to be less badly stereotypical as well.

Lol, he wasn't that bad.
xD

There isn't much to it then the scene in the end. Even his morbid desire to "fix things" is kinda badly stereotypical. I recall have seen that in a few movies.

It's in movies because there are people like that in real life.
It's funny the more I talk about Curtis with you the more he makes me think he's a pedophile or something by the way he acts.
He's a recluse who works in a junkyard, who likes to fix things, who has a masochistic personality, and eye's Alex like mancandy. j/k

Must she scream and must the player need to run and slash through a small army of miners? What happened to the slow paced psychological horror?

Well I don't know about you but on my first time play through I was scared as hell of the miners and of the fact that I was killing people.
(Even if you couldn't see their face)

Silent Hill movie

Yeah, that movie made me sad. It wasn't bad. . . Like the worst move ever or anything, in it's own way it was interesting. But as a Silent Hill title they messed up on it.

Silent Hill the Movie < Silent Hill Homecoming.

I don't think it's a good example to compare the Silent Hill movie screen play to the Homecoming's.

Having the character drill through the leg of Alex isn't good screenwriting in terms of revenge, it's just for the sake of gore.

You keep saying that, but I don't see any gore in that scene. ( I did look up the word just so I had a better idea of the real definition. )
There wasn't any blood, or seen flesh piercing. . . It wasn't really gory.

it's just for the sake of gore. I could come up with 100 better ways to have the revenge act be more in-character and psychologically interesting.

This makes me thing of Johny the Homicidal Maniac hooking a guy up to an electric battery, so when a switch or button was pushed in his house the guy was electrocuted.

- - - -

On a side note: What was wrong with Saw/the Saw series?
xD