Anyone think they missed out on a great oppotunity?

Post by **Grendel** » 13 Jan 2009

WOW. All Glaz vs Aura fights seem to be going ..... erm, a tad bit too far ahead? Anyways, and I'm just repeating this, I quite amazingly enjoy Homecoming in many ways, but I do still believe the series should follow in Team Silent's footsteps, if not, atleast find similair styles to bring back the vibe of the older, heavily mature, games.

By all means, I would rather KEEP some type of combat for the series, but Aura, as Glazarus brings up, it IS possible to succesfully continue SH without combat.

BTW, syntheticlung, Just a matter of opinion, but Siren's art direction is roughly the same as most (but not all) ways that Silent Hill presents. Sorry for this bit of pointlessness, just my annoyance.

Post by **Goodlikesweeper** » 13 Jan 2009

@Glazarus

I started likeing the guy a lot as I found out he is a huge SH2 fan.

And I have watched that video 100 times allready,lol.I agree with him 100%.

And thats kinda what I was saying in my comment.We should just let them enjoy and stop complaining,this isn't a game for us.Neither will any other SH game be.But we can't stop them from making another one either.SH franshize is money now for Konami.

"For me,Silent Hill series is over".Yup,exactly.

Lets just hope Masahiro Ito and his friends start making some other game together.*holding fingers crossed*

And,I think I should play SH2 again, to se how James menaged to repress memory of what he did,then maybe I could use the same technique ti repress my memory of Homecoing existance.That would make me a much happier person!

Post by **Glazarus** » 13 Jan 2009

The next Silent Hill will be about a Silent Hill fan trying to find his roots in what seems to be the real world Silent Hill and he ends up fighting the manifested beings of action figures, comic books, origins and homecomings and in the end meets Valtiel himself who's been backstabbed by the art director at Double Helix running around playing a stereotypical police officer with league of fans who desperately try to make a point which makes no sense but in the end drowns the main character in pile of references to the movie that has a mass of such proportions that it creates a gravitational hole in the spacetime continuum with a shape of an asshole sucking everyone in and ends with a world and a big fucking mine under it... that burns... and makes no sense.

I'm gonna audition for the main character

Post by **Devilsknight** » 13 Jan 2009

Glazarus wrote:
How can Harry be Alessa's hero if he's not fighting her nightmares?
What does ever imply that Alessa want's Harry to be her hero? You keep saying I pull things out of my ass, so how do you explain this? Still nothing that supports this.

How is Claudia's like....entire plan supposed to work if Heather never kills anything?
Not necessarily, Heather needs hatred and revenge in her heart to birth the God.
It's not a necessarity that she kills something.

How do we get evidence of James' hypocrisy if he doesn't murder Eddie?
He could still have killed Eddie without having to have an entire game with combat.

These has nothing to do with reducing combat in the games, they are by no means important for that kind of gameplay.

I only played the first episode. That axe is as effective as the weapons in Siren, Sir.
Play Penumbra: Black Plague, Sir

Lolwut? The first statement doesn't relate to anything I've ever said
You call me disrespectful in a another thread and claim that I say that other people aren't "enough fans" of the series to understand it, which of course I've never said.
I therefore find it entertaining that you now say that I "were probably never as big of a fan as you claim to be", which in terms of your own definition of disrespectful would mean that you now are disrespectful... funny how you try to avoid it by saying it doesn't relate to anything.

Oh come on. Silent Hill is great but it's not THAT great.
Oh, wait... who are you saying isn't a big fan of the series?

The camera in the previous Silent Hills is really typicall Japanese style "locked" camera
It's not THAT stiff, it moves quite alot. Quite alot more then most movies actually.
What's so special about at least Sh2 is that it uses small movements. View the scene where you meet Angela. The camara rotates slowly through each segment.
It's a kind of storytelling that is very innovative. It might also be one of the only things I liked about the movie, how they used some of the angles and movements of the camera.

Well they felt like they were aimed at a mature audience (and not just because it was rated R16 or R18) and I appreciated that. The adult themes in the game made it refreshingly complex because I can go into any game store and walk out with any number of games where your patriotic american soldier character blows away monsters while a stereotypical black support character shouts clichÃ© nonsense, but Silent Hill didn't do things that way, it followed a different formula it dealt with vulnerable realistic characters that the player could sympathize with.
Agree to 200%
This is also a reason why some find it hard to like them... some haven't got the necessary life experience to get some of the stuff in these games. There are those who are 16 years old who can relate and understand it because they already have such experiences but there are also those who are far older who will never understand the themes in these games. Therefore "mature" means an understanding of what the hell these games are about, because they are NOT just about the gameplay, puzzles and action. That is why I find it undeserving that a game like Silent Hill 2 is disliked because combat was stiff or it was slow or... not entertaining enough. Wow, I never saw a Tarkovsky movie I was entertained by, but they sure gave me things to think about, relate to, feel. Entertaining is a word producers use... not artists.

...Just rereading that comment Aura, with that kind of maturity I now understand why you enjoyed Homecoming so much.
Indeed

Mybe I wrote it a bit unclear, I didnt mean "locked" as in "didnt move", but more "fixed" or "the way the developer wanted it to move". A good example is the run throught the forestpath in SH2.
Japanese games have alot of that.

Post by **Glazarus** » 13 Jan 2009

Japanese games have alot of that.

So does, Tarkovsky, Kubrick, Lynch and Fincher
I think it's good to have storytelling camerawork in games like Silent Hill, it helps creating the atmosphere and in some areas focus out attention while something else happens.

Most western games have this idea that everything is gameplay and that story is a minor thing, a necessary evil as an excuse to do shit.
Because of this they focus all attention on a good camera in terms of gameplay only and forget why good storytelling camerawork even exist. I would even go so far as to say that I think most game developers doesn't know about how it effects the audience.

Yes, you get a better view when playing Homecoming, no shit, it shows everything in front of you and doesn't even try to play with the "fear for the unknown"-keys.

Post by **AuraTwilight** » 13 Jan 2009

Well they felt like they were aimed at a mature audience (and not just because it was rated R16 or R18) and I appreciated that. The adult themes in the game made it refreshingly complex because I can go into any game store and walk out with any number of games where your patriotic american soldier character blows away monsters while a stereotypical black support character shouts clichÃ© nonsense, but Silent Hill didn't do things that way, it followed a different formula it dealt with vulnerable realistic characters that the player could sympathize with.

...Just rereading that comment Aura, with that kind of maturity I now understand why you enjoyed Homecoming so much.

I still don't see why everyone is complaining. Homecoming still has adult themes, the relevant characters still have depth and psychological deepness. All I'm hearing over and over is "the main character is capable of kicking more ass therefore the game isn't as intelligent oh mah gawd"

What does ever imply that Alessa want's Harry to be her hero? You keep saying I pull things out of my ass, so how do you explain this? Still nothing that supports this.

Well, specifically Cheryl's aspect of the Cherylessa composite, to be precise, and you're quite foolish if you don't think so. Alessa continually has Harry face her nightmares before sending him back to the Foggy World, and continually watches over him when he does awaken, apparently contented that her nightmare has receded. Regardless of your interpretation, she's deliberately using him to calm her own mind, as he's the only one who initially sees the Dark World.

Not necessarily, Heather needs hatred and revenge in her heart to birth the God.
It's not a necessarity that she kills something.

"You will bring Paradise with blood-stained hands."

And God is born if you kill Claudia. And you get the Possessed Ending depending on how many monsters you kill. Along with, "They look like monsters to you?"

None of that means anything if there's no combat in the game.

Oh, wait... who are you saying isn't a big fan of the series?

I consider myself a huge fan of the series. A huge enough fan that I'm not going to put Silent Hill on a pedestal so that I'm not disappointed when my unrealistic expectations aren't broken. Silent Hill is a great game, one of the best games ever made, but it's not as amazing as most people seem to treat it, imo. It was made by mortal men.

You call me disrespectful in a another thread and claim that I say that other people aren't "enough fans" of the series to understand it, which of course I've never said.
I therefore find it entertaining that you now say that I "were probably never as big of a fan as you claim to be", which in terms of your own definition of disrespectful would mean that you now are disrespectful... funny how you try to avoid it by saying it doesn't relate to anything.

See my earlier comments. He who does not give respect does not receive it from me. You can quit trying to mine for hypocrisy, because I already mentioned that you lost my respect a week ago when these fights began. Change your attitude, or atleast give an apology for your earlier comments, and I'll do the same, but you haven't even offered.

Post by **Grendel** » 14 Jan 2009

Guys, thse fights are slowly transforming into an ugly red-headed monster. If ya'll can't debate NICELY and RESPECTFULLY (That goes for BOTH of you, I wish not to pick sides as one other side will find SOME way to jump me), then you'd mineaswell not debate at all. Glazarus, cool down about your hatred towards Homecoming, just because you dislike something, doesn't mean you must bring out these OVERLY long debates (Whether you started them or not). Aura, accept the facts actually brought up by Team Silent and don't ever judge someone about their fandom, that just shows what kind of fan YOU are.

Post by **AuraTwilight** » 14 Jan 2009

Guys, thse fights are slowly transforming into an ugly red-headed monster.

You mean...?

HOLY SHIT, EVERYONE ADD TO THE FLAME WAR, IT'LL SUMMON PYRAMID HEAD!

Aura, accept the facts actually brought up by Team Silent and don't ever judge someone about their fandom, that just shows what kind of fan YOU are.

*headdesks* I already said I accepted their facts, I just don't like them. I wasn't rejecting Team Silent's statements, but Glazarus's interpretations of them, which is entirely different. And frankly, if someone criticizes people's fandom and intelligence like Glazarus was, they open themselves up to their own medicine.

Post by **syntheticlung** » 14 Jan 2009

AuraTwilight wrote: I still don't see why everyone is complaining. Homecoming still has adult themes, the relevant characters still have depth and psychological deepness. All I'm hearing over and over is "the main character is capable of kicking more ass therefore the game isn't as intelligent oh mah gawd"

Well that might be all you hear but there are other points that back this up.
The adult themes in homecoming are no more so adult as the themes in manhunt, I'm pretty sure Glazarus said in another thread (and sorry Glaz but I'm only going from memory) that the dialog is written in less of a "realistic" way and is more poetic. This was a really nice touch not adding current slang as it gave no indication when it is set but I felt that this was another of many techniques they used to give it a mature feel.

AuraTwilight wrote: I'm not going to put Silent Hill on a pedestal so that I'm not disappointed when my unrealistic expectations aren't broken. Silent Hill is a great game, one of the best games ever made, but it's not as amazing as most people seem to treat it, imo. It was made by mortal men.

All I wanted of Homecoming was a game that honored the series and some continuity, unfortunately my cup is still empty. I don't think my expectations of the game were unreasonable, my complaints are that I wish Double Helix did a lot more research on Japanese story telling than reading manga aimed at the teenage derma graphic and more effort was put towards monster design and character development wouldn't have been in vain either. I think if they had taken the time to do this and tried to make a more seamless entry into the series rather than jump in guns blazing planning to revolutionize the series when their previous achievements included Buffy the game, they could've executed a game that pleased the old fans and drawn new fans. Especially if they had been as clever to use layering.

I don't want to sound like someone who didn't like Homecoming because it wasn't made by Team Silent because thats not true. The reason I don't like homecoming is because all aspects of Silent Hill followed a formula right down to monster and level design. With a little analysis Double Helix could have honored this formula as it was what separated this game from all other games and made it unique, but instead they thought it was tired and took it upon themselves to use the same really tired cookie cutter formula that every other next gen game uses

Grendel wrote: BTW, syntheticlung, Just a matter of opinion, but Siren's art direction is roughly the same as most (but not all) ways that Silent Hill presents. Sorry for this bit of pointlessness, just my annoyance.

No worries, I'm not writing it off and I'm not saying it's bad I'm just saying in my opinion Silent Hill was better

Post by **AuraTwilight** » 14 Jan 2009

Well that might be all you hear but there are other points that back this up.
The adult themes in homecoming are no more so adult as the themes in manhunt

Err...lolwut? You really think Manhunt is comparable to the psychological struggle of choosing between killing one child to save the other? How dare you.

All I wanted of Homecoming was a game that honored the series and some continuity, unfortunately my cup is still empty. I don't think my expectations of the game were unreasonable, my complaints are that I wish Double Helix did a lot more research on Japanese story telling than reading manga aimed at the teenage derma graphic and more effort was put towards monster design and character development wouldn't have been in vain either. I think if they had taken the time to do this and tried to make a more seamless entry into the series rather than jump in guns blazing planning to revolutionize the series when their previous achievements included Buffy the game, they could've executed a game that pleased the old fans and drawn new fans. Especially if they had been as clever to use layering.

No continuity? Sir, did you play the game at all? There's continuity nods ALL OVER, and it doesn't contradict anything already established in the series. The Atmosphere, music, and design was as honorable to the series as one can expect, as well. Hell, they probably included Bogeyman in the first place to appeal to old fans. A lot of SH fans make the series into a holy grail that can't be realistically lived up to, so they become an unpleasable fanbase. I've seen it happen before to SH4, SH3, and SH2.
Yea, you heard me right, SH2. It got the same treatment Homecoming is getting now.

I don't want to sound like someone who didn't like Homecoming because it wasn't made by Team Silent because thats not true. The reason I don't like homecoming is because all aspects of Silent Hill followed a formula right down to monster and level design. With a little analysis Double Helix could have honored this formula as it was what separated this game from all other games and made it unique, but instead they thought it was tired and took it upon themselves to use the same really tired cookie cutter formula that every other next gen game uses

What is this formula, in your opinion, and how did Double Helix break it? The monsters have relevant symbolism and have Silent Hill-esque appearances, the levels contain most of the same staple locations and have the same creepy ambience and Otherworld shifts. What's wrong, here?

Post by **syntheticlung** » 14 Jan 2009

AuraTwilight wrote: Err...lolwut? You really think Manhunt is comparable to the psychological struggle of choosing between killing one child to save the other? How dare you.

Well I felt the same emotional attachment to James Earl Cash's family as what I felt for Josh, which was four fifths of not much. Lacking that bond with the character just made it kind of pedestrian rather than an epic psychological struggle.

AuraTwilight wrote:No continuity? Sir, did you play the game at all? There's continuity nods ALL OVER, and it doesn't contradict anything already established in the series. The Atmosphere, music, and design was as honorable to the series as one can expect, as well. Hell, they probably included Bogeyman in the first place to appeal to old fans. A lot of SH fans make the series into a holy grail that can't be realistically lived up to, so they become an unpleasable fanbase. I've seen it happen before to SH4, SH3, and SH2.
Yea, you heard me right, SH2. It got the same treatment Homecoming is getting now.

Having continuity nods is different than having good continuity and it's funny you brought up the Bogeyman because I wasn't even talking about him... but while we're here. Bogeyman wasn't added for the loyal fans, how can I tell? because they've based him on the movie model of Pyramid head and Double Helix wouldn't have had to trawl the internet to intensely before they found what the majority of loyal fans opinion of the movie was. The Bogeymans purpose in Homecoming is to broaden the audience, which is a fine thing to do but they could've done it in other ways rather than lazily rehashing already rehashed monsters.

I also found the level design to be closer to the movies for more reasons than visiting some of the locations, especially in the otherworld which is odd that they'd choose to mimic the movie in this area when the other games otherworld felt more confined and hopeless where as Homecoming's otherworld just felt cheesy cinematic like I didn't care if I was here or there.
In summery, great continuity for the movie

AuraTwilight wrote:What is this formula, in your opinion, and how did Double Helix break it? The monsters have relevant symbolism and have Silent Hill-esque appearances, the levels contain most of the same staple locations and have the same creepy ambience and Otherworld shifts. What's wrong, here?

People are theorizing about the monsters but I'm in no rush to find a bookie and put money down on all the monsters or even most of the monsters being relevant, and their appearance is one step to far for Silent Hill. The monsters have this extreme quality I cant put my finger on it, to me they aren't as subtle as they used to be an example of this is Siams buckles and clear as day army boots, or the Needlers scythe hands and feet (I know the Pendulum was also covered in blades but they were black with rust and the thing that made you scared of them wasn't the blades it was the screeching noise apposed to polished scythes)

This game could not have made otherworld shifts any less scary by taking the mystery out of it the way they did.

Post by **Nyarlathotep** » 14 Jan 2009

I gotta disagree with the idea of the otherworld from Homecoming being a rip off from the film. Maybe the transition to it is, however the designs of the areas are far different. Also as for loose continuity, that's how the series has always been outside of 1, 3, and Origins... Two only makes nods, same with The Room.

Post by **Glazarus** » 14 Jan 2009

Two only makes nods, same with The Room.

You're in the otherworld in Sh2, common details in hospital is the fence and rusty structures in the roof, in the endbattle, there's the rusty floor and structures.
In Sh4 the otherworld is different, Walter has control over it entirely.
You could say that the apartment is the same as the misty world while the otherworld is all other locations. The nature of this otherworld is though a bit different. Details in the Crimson Tome tells that what Walter is doing is to bring forth the devil and hell, which in the Order's eyes is not the otherworld we are used to.
My theory is that because Walters domain exist on another level, a much more self-made one, Hell is when the otherworld is purely made with the hands of someone other then God or her angels.

Post by **AuraTwilight** » 14 Jan 2009

Right, I mean, because of Homecoming, we have canonical endings for 0rigins, SH1, and SH3, without contradicting any of them, and making tasteful continuity references to the rest of the series throughout. What would you rather want for continuity, a James cameo?

Well I felt the same emotional attachment to James Earl Cash's family as what I felt for Josh, which was four fifths of not much. Lacking that bond with the character just made it kind of pedestrian rather than an epic psychological struggle.

Well, that's your own fault.

Bogeyman wasn't added for the loyal fans, how can I tell? because they've based him on the movie model of Pyramid head and Double Helix wouldn't have had to trawl the internet to intensely before they found what the majority of loyal fans opinion of the movie was. The Bogeymans purpose in Homecoming is to broaden the audience, which is a fine thing to do but they could've done it in other ways rather than lazily rehashing already rehashed monsters.

I don't see how Bogeyman's appearance matters one way or another. People would've bitched about PH being outside of SH2 either way, and I don't see how his movie appearance is more attractive to new fans over the original one, other than that it simply looks better, has more detail, and is pretty much the official re-design of the character.

I also found the level design to be closer to the movies for more reasons than visiting some of the locations, especially in the otherworld which is odd that they'd choose to mimic the movie in this area when the other games otherworld felt more confined and hopeless where as Homecoming's otherworld just felt cheesy cinematic like I didn't care if I was here or there.
In summery, great continuity for the movie

I felt confined and hopeless. The Hotel was one of the scariest Silent Hill areas, in my opinion, if only because of that creepy lullaby-singing bitch.

People are theorizing about the monsters but I'm in no rush to find a bookie and put money down on all the monsters or even most of the monsters being relevant, and their appearance is one step to far for Silent Hill. The monsters have this extreme quality I cant put my finger on it, to me they aren't as subtle as they used to be an example of this is Siams buckles and clear as day army boots, or the Needlers scythe hands and feet (I know the Pendulum was also covered in blades but they were black with rust and the thing that made you scared of them wasn't the blades it was the screeching noise apposed to polished scythes)

This game could not have made otherworld shifts any less scary by taking the mystery out of it the way they did.

So basically, "I don't like the way the monsters look therefore they are inferior."

I'm tired of all the complaints against Homecoming being middle school-level in integrity.

Post by **Vestu** » 26 Apr 2009

AAAnd the winner is AuraTwilight. Homecoming is a good game. Better than SH4. Period. Next topic whee!

Post by **syntheticlung** » 27 Apr 2009

I don't think she is the winner of anything, I can't speak for anyone else but she definitely hasn't changed my mind about Homecoming. Just because she has the ability to write valid points off with insults and miss other points entirely does not make her the victor.
Peace.

Post by **jdnation** » 04 May 2009

Alright! Just finished Homecoming today and checked out all the different endings online so I'm back to the forums after awhile!

I liked it! Sure the story isn't as grand as 2 or 3 or even 4, but it was enjoyable! There was somefrustration getting used to teh combat and some of the menu controls suck in that sometimes I'd mistakenly use items without meaning to, but overall a welcome addition to the SH franchise!

As for the delimma of having this sort of combat in future sequels... Well one suggestion is that we go with an actual soldier, but it doesn't sound like a great idea doing it right after Homecoming... Someone else suggested someone that was a martial artist, that could work! Or it could just be someone tough, like Travis as a truck driver in Origins... Maybe even a cop, or perhaps someone who's a bit vicious, maybe even a killer from the start and we can be openly told that he's a murderer... would be a nice change where we don't have to discover it but rather have it focus on him and surrounding characters who for some reason he has no reason to aid but finds them useful in figuring out how to get out of the town... like he's an escaped convict or something...

Also for another idea say we have a character who is a weak female stereotype... instead of making her strong the monsters won't be as fast or vicious, more stumbling to compensate for the character type and he dodges can be more clumsy...

Also drawing off this idea for a weaker character, we can reinvent new ways to play the game, for example context sensitive areas in the levels, where maybe she can pull something down over the monster etc. I tihnk the Wii remake of Silent Hill might do many things like this.

For other ideas of reinventing the combat, maybe we can look to examples in games like the PS3 version of Alone in the Dark Inferno, or maybe what is going on in the PS3 exclusive 'Heavy Rain.' I'm disappointed that they're doing some fresh ideas in the Wii version as a remake, It would've been cooler if it was a canonical new story, but hey if it works on the Wii version then they can still implement the good stuff that worked into Silent Hill 6.

Post by **Skele** » 05 May 2009

Isn't there a thread, or wasn't there a thread for people who want to rip Homecoming a new one?

I don't think anyone has a problem with Glazarus and other folks hating Homecoming, but people are just tired of hearing about it, over and over again. that, and the constant bringing up of SH2...it's like a broken record. also, snide remarks don't help anyone's argument. when someone insinuates that fans have poor taste because they actually like Homecoming, no one should be surprised when insults are thrown that persons way.

Post by **Nillin** » 05 May 2009

Exactly. I don't have a problem with anyone disliking SH: Homecoming, but the fact that we have to hear the same ridiculous and (mostly wrong) statements really get on everyone's nerves. "Movie rip-off!" "Story arc!" "Bad screenplay!"

Like, seriously. You don't like the game, we get that, let it go. Do something constructive instead of impressing your opinion on everyone. And there is a difference between voicing your opinion and telling everyone, "This is my opinion... And I'm right lol stfu!" which is what most people who are vehemently against Homecoming are doing. They're not complaining; they're whining.

Post by **syntheticlung** » 05 May 2009

I get frustraited because sometimes these forums actually get listened to by Climax/Doublehelix. I think Silent Hill (not specificly Silent Hill 2 so don't put words in my mouth) was an amazing series that was doing everything it needed to do right. So now that they are slowly taking more and more from other games and adding it to a series that didn't need it, it's feeling less and less like Silent Hill.

Now, if I want to play Resident Evil I'll play Resident Evil if I want to play Condemned, ditto, but now if I want to play a new Silent Hill title I end up playing a mash up of all the games I didn't want to play in the first place. The reason this frustraits me is because the fans of Homecoming run around defending it to the death sounding like the game is faultless, and I would hate to think that some developer potentially reading this to see what the fans want in a Silent Hill and have them think "shit, everyone loves Homecoming, no room for improvement there". So in my opinion the fans of this game aren't the only people that are allowed to voice their opinion.