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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
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Last seen at: The Wand'ring Wood
>but putting them together would make Pyramid Head/Bogeyman crawl out from under a bed or from the closet and harass little children.

You don't know that for sure at all.

>he seems to be Bogeyman by name only.

And, again, as I said, in the drawings you find around town.

>the executioner is not a permanent platonic form for the Otherworld or SH. he isnt a remnant of someone else's journey in SH.

False. SH2 has shown this--he belongs both to the town AND James.


Why are you speaking in absolutes? It's not helping you.

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Historical Society Historian
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i thought there was no definite, permanent beings in the Otherworld, that it was all based on someone's fears and subconscious.


This is true. But my theory is that the Otherworld "records" what it's made before. When you manifest something, from a note, to Maria, to Pyramid Head, to a bug, the Otherworld never forgets that. It saves the "file", and will edit it for a new person.

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the executioner from SH and the Bogeyman share many qualities but putting them together would make Pyramid Head/Bogeyman crawl out from under a bed or from the closet and harass little children.


He doesn't in the game, so you're wrong here.

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he seems to be Bogeyman by name only.


And behavior, and actions, and appearance.

Quote:
he executioner is not a permanent platonic form for the Otherworld or SH. he isnt a remnant of someone else's journey in SH.


Everything created, according to my theory, exists as a "memory" in the Otherworld, able to be called upon again. The Otherworld isn't just a canvas or a mirror, it's also a sponge.

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the reasons behind nurses being used over and over again, isnt necessarily SH using somebody's fear or subconscious (James for example). people are a civilization based species. largely, we all share the same basic ideas, concepts, and fears.


It is true that there is a collective unconsciousness among the human race. This may be why the Otherworld recycles manifested elements in the first place. It records "Fear of Billy", and stores it. Later comes Jimmy, who has a similar fear, plus a little bit of something else. The Otherworld recognizes this, "Is this Billy? Uhh....close enough. I'll just fix up Fear of Billy here and let the fucker loose."

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 20 Mar 2009
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its funny to think of it like a computer, saving an image to copy and paste later. about the coming out from under a bed thing: it was a joke, he's not really gonna do that. thats what children imagine a bogeyman would do and children believe he will eat them up. of course, he has big freaking sword for killing and no mouth to eat with. where children could make up a horrific figure like pyramid head to be a bogeyman is beyond me. the town is not a sentient being, the monsters, ghouls, ferals, and nurses from past Silent Hill's arent tangible things to the outside world, and the town gets its powers from the guilt, thoughts of other people, all that is obvious.
"the Otherworld "records" what it's made before. When you manifest something, from a note, to Maria, to Pyramid Head, to a bug, the Otherworld never forgets that. It saves the "file", and will edit it for a new person."
a Nurse could be a reformed Maria in that case, which could probably be true. (Maria intrigued me in the first place because she seemed to have a conscious mind unlike the other things formed in SH, but thats another topic)
Why would the town take a common feared thing, the Bogeyman (the children fable about the monster living under the bed) and put it in the form of Pyramid Head exectioner?
this has nothing to do with the topic but i have a question: what is the deal with the Shades of James Siam? part man, part woman, part monster? where would that come from?


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
Notes left: 12943
Last seen at: The Wand'ring Wood
>where children could make up a horrific figure like pyramid head to be a bogeyman

You're still missing the point--the town supplies the image based on the concept of fear. Undoubtedly Alex had his own input into it, too, with this idea of being without compassion or mercy.

>Why would the town take a common feared thing, the Bogeyman (the children fable about the monster living under the bed) and put it in the form of Pyramid Head exectioner?

That's like asking why any of the monsters have any shape or form that they do. It just does. They just do. That's what the developers did. Also, again, Pyramid Head has already embodied the idea of an executioner through not only the town's history but James' mind. It's a 'reboot' of that file, with a slight upgrade in appearance.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 20 Mar 2009
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point is, its not children that had anything to do with any of it. Alex came up with those drawings. i dont think it was providing anything at all, not the way it looks anyway. remember, every human has an input in the monsters and the surroundings, and sometimes these views clash (like James and Angela a few times) it was most like the Order members, who probably did know about the executioner and it was just a mix of the two ideas. a merciless judge, like Alex himself.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
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>its not children that had anything to do with any of it.

It's cool that you know that for a fact--did you work on this game? I wasn't aware they hired teenagers as developers.

Also, you don't know for sure again that Alex came up with those drawings. Why couldn't he have seen Joshua or any of Joshua's friends make similar drawings when they were alive? You're giving me no attempt at justifying why the drawings don't exist, just speaking more in absolutes and you know what? It's not working.

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Just Passing Through
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thanks for the sarcasm. its still new to me, im trying ok? maybe Alex himself didnt come up with them, but he is the only one that seems to see them. he thinks Josh as a little itty bitty child and so the drawings are childlike. actual images and objects have no real meaning, just how one interprets it. wasnt the topic about PH?


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My Bestsellers Clerk
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Missing since: 08 Nov 2008
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don't take her too serious. just randomly insert i think and imo and Krist can focus on the topic again.

i think.

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Historical Society Historian
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thats what children imagine a bogeyman would do and children believe he will eat them up. of course, he has big freaking sword for killing and no mouth to eat with. where children could make up a horrific figure like pyramid head to be a bogeyman is beyond me.


The parents did that, not the kids.

Quote:
the town is not a sentient being, the monsters, ghouls, ferals, and nurses from past Silent Hill's arent tangible things to the outside world, and the town gets its powers from the guilt, thoughts of other people, all that is obvious.


I agree. But that doesn't mean the town does not possess memory.

Quote:
Why would the town take a common feared thing, the Bogeyman (the children fable about the monster living under the bed) and put it in the form of Pyramid Head exectioner?


The parents are the ones who made the Bogeyman look like PH. They described it as such to the children.

Quote:
this has nothing to do with the topic but i have a question: what is the deal with the Shades of James Siam? part man, part woman, part monster? where would that come from?


It was just an Accomplishment, it's just "Siam."

Quote:
Alex came up with those drawings. i dont think it was providing anything at all, not the way it looks anyway.


They were drawn by the sacrificed children.

Quote:
maybe Alex himself didnt come up with them, but he is the only one that seems to see them.


No one else is wandering around town picking up random shit off the ground.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Woodside Apartments Janitor
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Missing since: 30 Mar 2009
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AuraTwilight wrote:
They were drawn by the sacrificed children.



To be fair, we have no way of knowing that. We're led to believe that they were most likely left by Josh, but since Josh himself is probably nothing more than a manifestation of Alex's damaged psyche it could easily be said that they are in fact of Alex's creation.

_________________
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I'm burning diesel, burning dinosaur bones
I'll take the river down to still water
And ride a pack of dogs


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
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nobody wrote:
don't take her too serious. just randomly insert i think and imo and Krist can focus on the topic again.

i think.


What kind of nonsense is this?

>but since Josh himself is probably nothing more than a manifestation of Alex's damaged psyche it could easily be said that they are in fact of Alex's creation.

I'm not sure I buy, entirely, that Josh is a construct of Alex's psychosis. I think it's just as possible that Josh exists as a 'haunting,' you know? Not necessarily the Josh you see running around all over the place, but the things that trigger Alex's memories about him. There's elements of Josh, the person, in these objects we find--which is a theme used in previous Silent Hills.

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My Bestsellers Clerk
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AuraTwilight wrote:
I agree. But that doesn't mean the town does not possess memory.


Memory is a part of the counsciousness. That would mean the town also has perception, imagination and the ability to value or schedule events.

Quote:
The parents are the ones who made the Bogeyman look like PH. They described it as such to the children.


How do you know? If the parents did that, why do the drawings just show a black person instead of a trianglehead?

Why do we need somebody that effects the appereance of entities that may exist (in a way glazarus explained) and are just manifested or called?
This was the first thing that came to my mind when i saw pyramid head in homecoming.

Quote:
It was just an Accomplishment, it's just "Siam."


But maybe there is more behind that. Just giving the accomplishment that name without a proper reason would be... idk.

Quote:
What kind of nonsense is this?


That's exactly what i though, while reading your post.


I agree with stopped_clock, we don really know who drew those pictures. I thought it was Joshua or maybe even Alex. Now he collects those memories of his past and finally sees the big picture behind them.

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Historical Society Historian
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>That's exactly what i though, while reading your post.

I think you need to change your attitude completely*. Disagreeing with me is totally fine, wanting to point out WHY you think so is fine, too. Using the language you used in your past two posts? Not fine. In fact, I'm insulted and you're actually toeing a conduct line for the forum. You should probably watch out, change how you say things, or just not say a thing at all. I'm not like some dog with a chew toy to be distracted by words like "I think" or "IMO." That's not even the point of what I was trying to make. The point was that screws wasn't trying to back up what he said with any justification or examples--just speaking in absolutes. You can speak in absolutes, I think, if you at least bother to back up your arguments with supporting claims or concepts from the game in question.

>why do the drawings just show a black person instead of a trianglehead?
It does show a trianglehead. Also, children aren't exactly known for being good artists.

>But maybe there is more behind that. Just giving the accomplishment that name without a proper reason would be... idk.

I think it may have something to do with the burden of Mary's memory on James.




*If you want to say that I need a change for saying nonsense, you should probably know that not only did you bother to explain what you meant in your post, but it came out of nowhere and, as the word implies, made no sense to me. Just wanted to add this in so you don't think I was trying to pull a powertrip.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 20 Mar 2009
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anyways.......lets gets back on topic and cool down.

Siam could be proof of Silent Hill's "memory." a mix between Mary/Maria and James. ive always wondered if it was possible for the town to "absorb" an actual person. take him/her completely. mind, body and soul. that could be a reason for the "shades" of James.

<<Why do we need somebody that effects the appereance of entities that may exist
maybe it doesnt. maybe when people arent there, its run itself like a normal town, you know, only with monsters.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Quote:
To be fair, we have no way of knowing that. We're led to believe that they were most likely left by Josh, but since Josh himself is probably nothing more than a manifestation of Alex's damaged psyche it could easily be said that they are in fact of Alex's creation.


If anything, they're creations the children drew before they were sacrificed which are appearing now. No one says they're recent drawings.

Quote:
Memory is a part of the counsciousness. That would mean the town also has perception, imagination and the ability to value or schedule events.


Ever heard of the Akashic Records? What about psychometry? Inanimate objects, places, planes, and ideas themselves can possess memory without consciousness in occult fields. Hell, this is true in the fields of science. Want an example? Computers, video tapes, DVDs, books.

Quote:
How do you know? If the parents did that, why do the drawings just show a black person instead of a trianglehead?


Because the parents are the ones manifesting him.

Quote:
Why do we need somebody that effects the appereance of entities that may exist (in a way glazarus explained) and are just manifested or called?
This was the first thing that came to my mind when i saw pyramid head in homecoming.


Why wouldn't we? If the town has no consciousness, than some human must be creating the images.

Quote:
Siam could be proof of Silent Hill's "memory." a mix between Mary/Maria and James. ive always wondered if it was possible for the town to "absorb" an actual person. take him/her completely. mind, body and soul. that could be a reason for the "shades" of James.


This could be what happens to people who die in Silent Hill. Their souls remain behind, forever generating their ideas? The same with people who never leave the Otherworld, like James in the Maria ending.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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My Bestsellers Clerk
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AuraTwilight wrote:
Ever heard of the Akashic Records? What about psychometry? Inanimate objects, places, planes, and ideas themselves can possess memory without consciousness in occult fields. Hell, this is true in the fields of science. Want an example? Computers, video tapes, DVDs, books.


I heard about Akashic Records, but that is a theory itself - i do not believe in. Video tapes and computers may save what you record on them, but the tape can't counsciously remember that it slipped threw my fingers last week and fell to the ground.

And i wasn't really disagreeing, Aura. Even if i do not believe in Akashic Records in reality, that doesn't mean it may not exist in silent hill. Like a cult god.

Quote:
Because the parents are the ones manifesting him.


Still you said they discribed bogeyman as pyramid head, in design matters, to the children. Why mentioning it when it doesn't matter in this case?

Quote:
Why wouldn't we? If the town has no consciousness, than some human must be creating the images.


Again, i was not disagreeing with you. Maybe the town possesses sort of things like that, but it doesn't need to, if the enitity is simply "called" and has always the same appereance no matter who feels guilt in silent hill. i don't believe that the bogeyman was designed after the appereance the parents knew from the silent hill executioners nor did i ever believe that PH in SH2 was designed after a picture James saw in the society.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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I heard about Akashic Records, but that is a theory itself - i do not believe in. Video tapes and computers may save what you record on them, but the tape can't counsciously remember that it slipped threw my fingers last week and fell to the ground.


Who said Silent Hill's Otherworld consciously remembers? I didn't. It just remembers the data fed to it on it's visitors and records their manifestations, and those previous conjurations can be altered, recycled, and resummoned by future videos. You didn't address psychometry, the alleged psychic ability to view the memories of inanimate objects, like scanning clothing to find missing people.

Quote:
Still you said they discribed bogeyman as pyramid head, in design matters, to the children. Why mentioning it when it doesn't matter in this case?


The pictures look like a vaguely childishly scribbled Pyramid Head.

Quote:
Again, i was not disagreeing with you. Maybe the town possesses sort of things like that, but it doesn't need to, if the enitity is simply "called" and has always the same appereance no matter who feels guilt in silent hill. i don't believe that the bogeyman was designed after the appereance the parents knew from the silent hill executioners nor did i ever believe that PH in SH2 was designed after a picture James saw in the society.


Perhaps, but if you take in 0rigins into the account, it makes a lot more sense when you consider the Butcher. Some guy hallucinates about seeing a Butcher monster which may or may not be what Travis saw. Travis manifests his Shadow and his issues and merges it with the Butcher concept. After overcoming it, James misses the Executioner imagery with the Butcher, which is the Shadow, and twists the combined entity into Pyramid Head, his own Shadow who has the function of punishing. He overcomes it, and later, the people of Shepherd's Glen summon the Bogeyman, which they merged with Pyramid Head, which has the punishing symbolism but not the Shadow aspects.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Woodside Apartments Janitor
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Missing since: 30 Mar 2009
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AuraTwilight wrote:
If anything, they're creations the children drew before they were sacrificed which are appearing now. No one says they're recent drawings.


Again though, this is pure conjecture, I'm merely stating at this point that both opinions are equally valid because we have no other information to work with. The only child we ever saw drawing was Josh, and since all the drawings are in the same style (I know that they're genreic kid style drawings but they appear to be drawn by the same person) it makes the most sense to assume that they were drawn by Josh. And since Josh's true nature is unknown, it is equally valid to say either that the drawings are real or that they are Alex's own creation.

As for the memory talk, I really like your theory of Silent Hill acting like a resevoir for the human psyche, it makes me think of the idea of Astral imprints, that being that hauntings are caused by the astral plane recording an event of great trauma or strong emotions and then randomly replaying it or overlaying it upon reality.

_________________
Too cold to start a fire
I'm burning diesel, burning dinosaur bones
I'll take the river down to still water
And ride a pack of dogs


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Quote:
Again though, this is pure conjecture, I'm merely stating at this point that both opinions are equally valid because we have no other information to work with. The only child we ever saw drawing was Josh, and since all the drawings are in the same style (I know that they're genreic kid style drawings but they appear to be drawn by the same person) it makes the most sense to assume that they were drawn by Josh. And since Josh's true nature is unknown, it is equally valid to say either that the drawings are real or that they are Alex's own creation.


Fair enough, but I find that the "Josh is a construct" theory kind've makes the beginning of the game a convulted mess, as opposed to Josh being a ghost that can have a less passive influence.

And thanks for the complement. That was an influence.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 02 Oct 2007
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I read as much as possible but is this right?
The PH serves as an executioner to punish the parents for their crimes right? Thing i dont get is what would be that thing that killed the mayor? What about Scarlette and that thing that almost killed Judge Holloway? Im assuming that is there children coming back for revenge? I also kind of assumed that the PH was going after Alex's father because he did not hold up his end of the deal. Yeah im still kind of confused on the whole thing here.


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