It's about time we had "the talk"

[Morbid.Marionette]

Hay my peeps,

After playing SH:H for the umpteenth time in a row and lurking around threads (no pun intended) I finally have to ask the question.
What is your opinion on SH:H taking elements from the SH:M (Movie)?

- - - - -

In my opinion, I liked it.
Although the story of the movie well lets face it wasn't as awesome as SH:1, I thought as an Americanized remake (and I use that term lightly) it wasn't that bad.
Visually I thought the movie was beautiful which is why I like the idea of DH taking all the good stuff and interpreting them into the game.
I believe even if Teem Silence (sorry if the name is wrong) had made the new SH game, they would of ended up using elements from the movie as well, (maybe a bit more discreetly) but they would of been there.

So:

Positives/Negatives:

The change into the "otherworld":

P: I love the skin pealing effect if I'm just morbid like that but I think it's awesome. Also I like the idea of when changing due to an event Alex passes out. Very SH:1.

N: I don't really have a negative for this one.

The cutting of the tapastry/painting:

P: I liked that fact that you could interact with your environment, I also like having to break down the boards blocking the door.

N: If I can slash through painting and break down barriers, why can't I kick a door in when it's locked?

The Minors:

P: I have a strange gas mask fetish, so yeah. C:

N: No point, they don't really explain why the minors are there, I know they're order members but (was there a coal mine under the town?) I don't know I just don't get it.

The fire under Silent Hill:

P: It was cool to see smoke coming up from the ground, It could represent eternal hell fire and damnation for the town.

N: Again coal mine? I still don't get it.

( I have more but I have to get going, so I'll edit my post later.)

Discuss!

[Goodlikesweeper]

"Did you like elements from the movie being in the game?"

Is this a rhetorical question?You do realise that,if you take someone elses ideas,you are not using your own creativity,right?Like,at all...since when is this a good thing?Since when is this even an option for a Silent Hill game?

So,I could refraze this question like this:

"Do you want your Silent Hill creators to be uninspired,uncreative and predictable copycats?"

And my answear would be-no.I don't.

Nothing againt you,just think about it.

And one more thing,when you try to make a horror game,when you want to scare people,you MUST NOT be predictable.If I know what is going to happen,you can not scare me.So,one of the reasons why this game weren't scary...AT ALL...is that it was super predictable because of so much shamless copying.


This is the worst thing that could happen to a creative franshize like this.

[Nyarlathotep]

As long as they keep these references strictly visual and ignore the story of the film... They won't bother me at all. I also agree with you, this game was going to have a lot of references to the film regardless of who developed it. I was always expecting that, even before the announcement of the game.

[LastGunslinger]

A fair amount of the original Silent Hill games involved copying, or more accurately, homage. Silent Hill has borrowed elements from a large number of literary and cinematic sources; I think the problem you have here is that Homecoming is paying homage to its own franchise now.

It doesn't bother me that elements from the film were used in the game because most of the elements (aside from the use of the Miners, of course, which wasn't very well substantiated) were themselves pretty good. There were plenty of recurring elements before the film in the early games, too; rust, wheelchairs, sirens, fleshy horror. And despite their use, the argument that it makes the game derivative and uncreative doesn't hold much water, because if you took away those elements there would still be an original story unique to the series and plenty of atmosphere and setpieces that have no direct correlation with either the film or the other games.

[Mr.FLOOT]

I didn't like it. I wanted something new and different! It just seemed like fan service to fans of the movie and more of an insult to the spirit and originality of SH1-4. There's a difference between infulence and copying, DH did the latter.

Overall I did like the game, but it could have been more original. I want Team Silent to come back, just for one more game.

[Goodlikesweeper]

A fair amount of the original Silent Hill games involved copying, or more accurately, homage. Silent Hill has borrowed elements from a large number of literary and cinematic sources; I think the problem you have here is that Homecoming is paying homage to its own franchise now.

It doesn't bother me that elements from the film were used in the game because most of the elements (aside from the use of the Miners, of course, which wasn't very well substantiated) were themselves pretty good. There were plenty of recurring elements before the film in the early games, too; rust, wheelchairs, sirens, fleshy horror. And despite their use, the argument that it makes the game derivative and uncreative doesn't hold much water, because if you took away those elements there would still be an original story unique to the series and plenty of atmosphere and setpieces that have no direct correlation with either the film or the other games.

Yes,exactly,there were inspirations and homages,but a lot of creativity besides that.And,you didn't really know back then what movies influenced them,right?Only if by some chanse you watched it before playing the game.And not just movies,all diffrent kinds of art.They just wanted to make a good game,instead of milking money by copying hollywood movie.Everything is influenced by something or someone,no one can argue about that,but what konami and (or) Double Helix did with this game is...well,a crime in my eyes.

And by the way,copying SH movie is not a homage to Silent Hill but to hollywood.

[Girl Interrupted]

A fair amount of the original Silent Hill games involved copying, or more accurately, homage. Silent Hill has borrowed elements from a large number of literary and cinematic sources; I think the problem you have here is that Homecoming is paying homage to its own franchise now.

It doesn't bother me that elements from the film were used in the game because most of the elements (aside from the use of the Miners, of course, which wasn't very well substantiated) were themselves pretty good. There were plenty of recurring elements before the film in the early games, too; rust, wheelchairs, sirens, fleshy horror. And despite their use, the argument that it makes the game derivative and uncreative doesn't hold much water, because if you took away those elements there would still be an original story unique to the series and plenty of atmosphere and setpieces that have no direct correlation with either the film or the other games.

Well said.

[Glazarus]

As long as they keep these references strictly visual and ignore the story of the film...

Something cannot be put into the game and be "just" visual without any thought behind it. This is a true example of bad art. Just "having something" isn't a sentence that works well when creating works of art... I think art history tells us this quite literal.

A fair amount of the original Silent Hill games involved copying, or more accurately, homage.

There isn't a single artwork in this world that hasn't been inspired by something. Inspiration isn't some divine thought that comes to you without inspirational sources. Still, there has to be YOUR context into it, that is the thought behind it.
Using the sexual tension and figures in Hans Bellmer's artworks for the monsters in Sh2 was made within the context of the story.

Most stuff in Homecoming that was taken directly from the movie was taken without any thought behind them. They didn't even alter them to create a new meaning or continuity.

This is the MAJOR problem with Homecomings use of the movie design. It uses it without thought. The inspiration for the earlier games was made for the story, not against or beside it. Homages on the other hand is something outside the story, but should not conflict or stand out. If the things from the movie is considered homages, then they stand out so much that it's damaging the story and rest of the art direction.

People must learn the difference between copying and using something as an inspirational source. Realize that DH copied things directly without a thought... that can not be changed by excuses from those who like the game, that is a fact for everyone with eyes that works properly.

[Nyarlathotep]

They take the visual from the film and create a new meaning for its placement within the game series. Just as the film did with visuals and characters it taken from the games.

[Devilsknight]

^
So what is the "new meaning" of the miners ? As an example.

[AgentX7k]

The Minors:

P: I have a strange gas mask fetish, so yeah. C:

N: No point, they don't really explain why the minors are there, I know they're order members but (was there a coal mine under the town?) I don't know I just don't get it

I don't know if they're meant to be minors, just Order members dressed up like that. It's like prevention against what might be a harmful environment (otherworld). Like how fire fighters suit up.

[Glazarus]

They take the visual from the film and create a new meaning for its placement within the game series. Just as the film did with visuals and characters it taken from the games.

What new meaning? I do not recall that any of the things taken directly from the movie has any new purpose at all. Most of what I hear is in my opinion only excuses for them to be there, not logical reasons. And in case these excuses are correct, they are by Silent Hill measurements quite bleak as either symbols or purposes.

Why does it feel that everything people say about this game is either an excuse or a way to try and shut out any critical voices?

You can go on and on about the significance of these details but in the end they were still just put in there because more people have seen the movie and because of that more people will be interested in playing it. It's a way of milking fans on money and to make new fans.
I've seen so many new fans that doesn't give crap about the old games because they are boooring and not as entertaining as Homecoming.

It's the same as why the Silent Hill movie is a failure. They took everything they could think of and tried and create something that's both Sh1 and 2... it was too much, it lost it's soul and especially it's atmospheric pace.

Just look at the level of depth the theories in here have to those in Silent Hill 1- 4.
Stop defending a game that is a pretender, or else it's gonna go on and on.
I for one am openly and seriously critical to this game because I don't want this to happen again, I want a true Silent Hill game. This game may look deep but it's shallow as many other games today... storytelling has died within games past few years. It's died and been replaced by commercialism. Please tell me how these details in the game ISN'T based on a commercial thought!

I don't know if they're meant to be minors

It's mining gear, that is a fact. Costume history, look it up.

[AuraTwilight]

Is this a rhetorical question?You do realise that,if you take someone elses ideas,you are not using your own creativity,right?Like,at all...since when is this a good thing?Since when is this even an option for a Silent Hill game?

The original Silent Hill was a copypasta of "The Regulators" by Stephen King. By your reasoning, Silent Hill isn't creative.

As for the miners, I just have two words for you guys: Smog. Monsters.

[Glazarus]

The original Silent Hill was a copypasta of "The Regulators" by Stephen King. By your reasoning, Silent Hill isn't creative.

Firstly, stories about manifestations and alternative realities has been around forever. Second, how the hell do you copypaste art direction from a book?
Please explain because that's just ridiculous. The copypaste in Homecoming is DIRECTLY from the movie, there's not an inch on let's say the nurses design that has been changed.

Also, The Regulators is far from the same story as Silent Hill.
You clearly didn't understand my explaination of the difference between inspirational sources and copying, so stop excusing the game.

As for the miners, I just have two words for you guys: Smog. Monsters.

So they have these before they know these are coming? Curtis already got this gear and it seems to even be a uniform for the order.
What you are saying are very far fetched assumptions. To assume that it's just a "cool" thing that DH took from the movie is much more plausible as a fact.

[Goodlikesweeper]

Aura,how can a game be a copypasta of a book?

Even IF silent hill were 100% The Regulators rip off,it still wouldn't be a copypaste,but an adaptation of the book.

You see,if you copy a bunch of letters,and then paste them,you get...well,a bunch of letters.Not meshes,textures and sound effects.
And please,read the rest of the topic.Everything is explained for those of you who don't undersand how all this works...

Smog and monsters?Why not wear gas masks and hide in a closet?Why wear a mining suit?Why is there a bunch of mining suits in Silent Hill if there isn't a mine underneath?And how can a mining suit protect you from the monsters?What kind of logic is that?"Oh,look its a monster,but its not a problem for me,I have my trusty mining suit!"WTF?Did I not understood you well,perhaps?
Or maybe,"Oh look,a monster and some smog,well,this is a perfect time for my mining suit!"Um,nope,I still don't see how that could work...


edit:lol Glazarus,you were faster!:D

[Grendel]

*sighs* people should really open their eyes to this stuff, no matter how badly executed the said stuff may be.

I personally don't mind the visuals of the SH Film making an appearance to SHH. It adds more variety to Otherworld. Now let's see, it was most obviously Homecoming's attempts at copying styles from the film, but these visuals (from peeling effect of Otherworld, to purely the Nurses' designs) can EASILY be made to fit into some form of phsycological manifestation (To many people other than me atleast, because it takes me time to even understand the original games), worth adding to the Silent Hill games history.

[PrescitedEntity]

It adds more variety to Otherworld.

I like how this one sentence really sums up how I feel about the addition. I'm a little sick of people calling it unoriginal when really, the franchise's look had been more static with the other games (barring the first, of course, and the fourth, which incidentally got all bashed in for it). I'm not crazy about the movie visuals - can do with, can do without - but it does add a bit more to look at, and what with the feel of it being pretty well suited to Silent Hill, I found it good. Do I wish they had been a bit less homage-y and a bit more trailblazing? A little. But the results were more than acceptable.

[AuraTwilight]

Firstly, stories about manifestations and alternative realities has been around forever. Second, how the hell do you copypaste art direction from a book?

The same way you do from a movie.

Please explain because that's just ridiculous. The copypaste in Homecoming is DIRECTLY from the movie, there's not an inch on let's say the nurses design that has been changed.

And the Nurse design in the Movie is pretty much a copypasta of SH2's Nurses.

Also, The Regulators is far from the same story as Silent Hill.
You clearly didn't understand my explaination of the difference between inspirational sources and copying, so stop excusing the game.

The Regulators and Silent Hill 1 have VERY similar plots. Psychic children are infused with demons, they trap a town and it's people within an alternate reality created from the child's psyche, monsters prowl the streets, the child tries to outsmart and defeat the demon.

And they're "far from" the same story? Hell, Silent Hill pretty much took the entire Foggy World from Stephen King's "The Mist."

So they have these before they know these are coming? Curtis already got this gear and it seems to even be a uniform for the order.
What you are saying are very far fetched assumptions. To assume that it's just a "cool" thing that DH took from the movie is much more plausible as a fact.

It's not an assumption that they're probably wearing them for that purpose, regardless of where they're actually from, which can be easily answered as a bunch of Order members preparing for the possibility of Hell/The Apocalypse, like real life Rapture Ready members, and Aum Shinrkyo cultists, do.

Even IF silent hill were 100% The Regulators rip off,it still wouldn't be a copypaste,but an adaptation of the book.

By that logic, Homecoming is even less of a rip off than SH1, because atleast it's plot isn't inspired by the movie.

You see,if you copy a bunch of letters,and then paste them,you get...well,a bunch of letters.Not meshes,textures and sound effects.
And please,read the rest of the topic.Everything is explained for those of you who don't undersand how all this works...

I didn't mean a literal copypasting of the text, jackass, I meant the concepts and ideas. Come on, if you're going to criticize my ideas, atleast give me the benefit of taking the actual meaning instead of a literal strawman.

Smog and monsters?Why not wear gas masks and hide in a closet?Why wear a mining suit?Why is there a bunch of mining suits in Silent Hill if there isn't a mine underneath?And how can a mining suit protect you from the monsters?What kind of logic is that?"Oh,look its a monster,but its not a problem for me,I have my trusty mining suit!"WTF?Did I not understood you well,perhaps?
Or maybe,"Oh look,a monster and some smog,well,this is a perfect time for my mining suit!"Um,nope,I still don't see how that could work...

The Smog monsters sure wrecked Alex's shit in the cutscene they were introduced. I'd say the mining suits not only give gas protection, but another layer of clothing protection.

[Glazarus]

The same way you do from a movie.

You don't seem to know what art direction is. You can't copy art direction from a text. What purpose is there to try and explain when you don't know what I'm talking about.

And the Nurse design in the Movie is pretty much a copypasta of SH2's Nurses.

It isn't, look it up. Secondly, the movie is as bad as Homecoming, or even worse.
It took stuff from the games without any respect for the myth. Sh2 had them designed like that for a reason, the movie didn't and homecoming copyed not only the design but also the lack of reason.

It's not an assumption that they're probably wearing them for that purpose, regardless of where they're actually from, which can be easily answered as a bunch of Order members preparing for the possibility of Hell/The Apocalypse, like real life Rapture Ready members, and Aum Shinrkyo cultists, do.

It's not an assumption, then give me plausible purpose. Saying everyone else is assuming things while you aren't isn't a good way to try and make sense.

The Smog monsters sure wrecked Alex's shit in the cutscene they were introduced. I'd say the mining suits not only give gas protection, but another layer of clothing protection.

We all agree that monsters are manifestations, in Homecoming it's likely they are part of the founders nightmares. You are grasping a desperate straw that explain this by them finding something they think would be likely to shield themselves from smog before the nightmare really started to grow big. There's no reason for curtis to have that mining suit lying there. It's not hard to figure out that DH needed some kind of "uniform" for the order grunts and they thought the mining suits from the movie were cool. The implications to the story had lesser importance for their thinking.

The reason for these mining suits varies alot throughout the discussion about them.
Each time I have criticized them it's a new explaination trying to make sense of them. There ain't any reason for them because DH copied it straight from the movie, they don't think in the multiplayered way Team Silent did.

And really, who are these enemies in the suits? If the founders left the Order 150 years ago and they kill their own children to keep the otherworld away, then that would be something to keep in the dark. It's even more illogical that some townsfolks would be indoctrinated into their beliefs when the try to keep it in the dark AND stay out of the ways of the order. So who are they?

As for Silent Hill 1 using alot of inspiration for the story, let me explain this:
Silent Hill 1 is the first game to come out. It took heavy inspiration from these books and it doesn't deny it. Though, it has a unique story in which each of these elements exist, both symbolical and to support the plot. It never copied art direction, it only took inspiration of the concepts.

What you seem to not understand is that copying art direction isn't the same as use a concept from an inspirational source. Take ANY movie and it will have concepts from another or other works of art.

What they did in Homecoming was to copy directly the art direction made for the movie. It's far from being inspired by other works of art. Pyramid Head is Pyramid Head, Nurses are Nurses, Miners are Miners and so on. Using the same art direction without any regard to how it fits within the story or timeline of the games is reckless and stupid, or rather it's a sign of both bad screenwriting and art-direction. It's non-creative to copy these things to such an extent that it shines so bright until your eyes burn. They didn't even try to make the design into something own, they just took it right away. You could almost pin-point dirty spots on PH's body at the same location as in the movie.

There is a huge difference between being inspired and using a concept to that of copying something without a real reason. Art direction is something you do OUT of the story and it can have it's inspirational sources, just like the art that inspired the monsters of Sh2. But they still aren't equal of the art's design and they do fit within the story in a very good way.

All these mining-gear excuses are so far fetched that I'm getting sick. The backstory of Homecoming makes it even less understandable that there are a large number of other people involved in this. As far as we know, the founders families kept things in the dark.

There are too large holes involved with the copied art direction. And copying directly from the movie is not creative at all.
I don't know what else I can say, but when you seem to not know what art direction is, I believe that it's hard for you to even understand the difference between an inspirational source that you combine into something new and copying something directly without even trying to make it a work of your own.

They used alot of things from the movie, because it's commercially successful to do that. I cannot understand why this is so hard to grasp. Stop this blind love for the game that generate the excuses for the non-creative art direction.
Konami isn't interested in making art, they want to sell alot and copying things from the movie is a good way of selling to alot more people then just the old fans... this is a no-brainer to figure out.

The ones who were interested in art was Team Silent, with them nowhere to be seen Konami can squeeze Team Silent's ideas until they choke the franchise and the old games wither and die with a reputation that isn't in respect of them.

So, yes, this is why I freakin hate Homecoming and Konami's greedy ways of life.

[LastGunslinger]

I don't think anyone is arguing against the idea that elements of Homecoming were taken from the film due to marketing pressure to tie the franchise to a mainstream release. I don't think the "excuses," as you call them, for those elements being in the game detract nearly as much from the originality of the other elements as you say. I find it very irrational to lobby a campaign against a game for which the problems you have with it are minute compared to the whole product.

In terms of percentages. the majority of Homecomng's art direction, locations, characters and plot are unique. It borrows inspiration from other stories and films outside of Silent Hill, of course, but like you said, that's just what creative works do. The issue with Homecoming is that there are small portions of it that are instantly recognizable as coming from the film, while the other games (with the exception of Origins) had none. It really isn't an issue for me, because I believe most of it works.

To me, it is like the practice of borrowing sets, costumes and props in the film industry. While it happens significantly more often in low-budget films, it has been known to happen in more successful films as well; when one film is done shooting, or even with overlapping shooting schedules, studios may share sets and props out of convenience and conserving budget. There is no problem with that as long as it meshes with each film's aesthetic.

In all, Homecoming is an original creative work with a unique, well-told story, interesting gameplay, original locations, characters and art direction, with a few visual elements taken from the film that, for the most part, were not even out of place. What Homecoming is not is an unoriginal rip-off of the film that should be burned and forgotten by future generations because it committed the sin of offending a few people's sensibilities.

Double Helix did a very good job, beyond simply competent; it took a hell of a lot of graphical programming to model effects in real-time, such as the wall-peeling, that were used in the film; to create an original effect that good is one thing, but to make it so closely resemble that from another medium and integrate it into gameplay is an accomplishment. The modeling and texturing of the creatures was also no joke. Even more, they directly defied movie-tie-in convention by not even mentioning characters from the film, its major plotlines, or anything that the movie-going audience would expect, aside from familiar visual elements. If those elements are to be considered "bad things," I see it as a worthy compromise in creating an otherwise original and enjoyable game.