pyramid head or boogeyman? should he have been there?

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BlackRose
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Re: pyramid head or boogeyman? should he have been there?

Post by BlackRose »

stopped_clock wrote:It's a lot easier to accept the boogeyman in this game when you realise that it isn't Pyramid Head. RPT is entirely James's creation, only James has ever seen him, and only James ever will.

The boogeyman on the other hand comes from a tale of a monster (based on the order's executioners) told to the children of Shepherds Glen by their parents (the members of the SG cult) as a deterrent for misbehaviour. When they are old enough to be informed of the cult and the pact and all of that they learn the truth behind the tale of the boogeyman. There literally is no more appropriate being to bring about the punishment of the SG cult than this.

It makes way more sense that the people of SG would come up with such a manifestation given how ingrained it is into the collective subconscious of the founding families than James, who once saw a picture of it.
It may have been called "the boogeyman" but it was still PH. I'm sorry but nobody can deny it, the only difference was was that he looked like the *shudder* movie version.

Using PH and just changing the name just shows how lazy they were when making the game. If they were going to make a monster called "boogeyman" then why not come up with an orignal design?

Either the developers got lazy or they knew how popular PH is.
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Re: pyramid head or boogeyman? should he have been there?

Post by SilentWren »

^That's EXACTLY what I'm saying.

If they wanted to draw from the prison executioners, that would've been one thing, but he was so obviously a PH knock off. It's like they were insulting our intelligence by calling him by a different name.
For that matter, what was that thing in Origins called?
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Re: pyramid head or boogeyman? should he have been there?

Post by stopped_clock »

BlackRose wrote:
stopped_clock wrote:It's a lot easier to accept the boogeyman in this game when you realise that it isn't Pyramid Head. RPT is entirely James's creation, only James has ever seen him, and only James ever will.

The boogeyman on the other hand comes from a tale of a monster (based on the order's executioners) told to the children of Shepherds Glen by their parents (the members of the SG cult) as a deterrent for misbehaviour. When they are old enough to be informed of the cult and the pact and all of that they learn the truth behind the tale of the boogeyman. There literally is no more appropriate being to bring about the punishment of the SG cult than this.

It makes way more sense that the people of SG would come up with such a manifestation given how ingrained it is into the collective subconscious of the founding families than James, who once saw a picture of it.
It may have been called "the boogeyman" but it was still PH. I'm sorry but nobody can deny it, the only difference was was that he looked like the *shudder* movie version.

Using PH and just changing the name just shows how lazy they were when making the game. If they were going to make a monster called "boogeyman" then why not come up with an orignal design?

Either the developers got lazy or they knew how popular PH is.
I'm not denying that it was fan service or that it was lazy, all I'm saying is that his presence in the game makes complete sense. It's obviously a manifestation drawn from the same source material as James's ph, and the fact is that symbolically the image of the order's executioner is a massively appropriate manifestation for the punishment of the breakaway sect members.

He even plays a different role to PH, in that the boogeyman actually does execute a cult member. The title of the topic is pyramid head or boogeyman? should he have been there? and from a story point of view the answer is yes. Even if it was fan service it actually makes perfect sense to use ph in the story of homecoming. There will never be a more appropriate time to utilise the order executioner than in a tale about a group of breakaway cult members who believe that they have invoked the wrath of the order's god.
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Re: pyramid head or boogeyman? should he have been there?

Post by Soulless-Shadow »

stopped_clock wrote: I'm not denying that it was fan service or that it was lazy, all I'm saying is that his presence in the game makes complete sense. It's obviously a manifestation drawn from the same source material as James's ph, and the fact is that symbolically the image of the order's executioner is a massively appropriate manifestation for the punishment of the breakaway sect members.

He even plays a different role to PH, in that the boogeyman actually does execute a cult member. The title of the topic is pyramid head or boogeyman? should he have been there? and from a story point of view the answer is yes. Even if it was fan service it actually makes perfect sense to use ph in the story of homecoming. There will never be a more appropriate time to utilise the order executioner than in a tale about a group of breakaway cult members who believe that they have invoked the wrath of the order's god.
I agree. I've already said something similar on the other page, but not quite as articulate. The only part that I think was fan service was his appearance. The fact he looked exactly like the movie PH was, imo, fan service, if not lazy designing. That's really the only problem I have with him, to be honest. Other than that, when one really thinks about the story of Homecoming and the cult, PH's presence makes sense.
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Re: pyramid head or boogeyman? should he have been there?

Post by leftshoe18 »

It doesn't matter that Pyramid Head is in Homecoming since it's probably not even the same canon as James' story. I like to think that Homecoming takes place in the same canon as the movie, which also had PH, for a few reasons.

1. The presence of The Grand Hotel
2. Pyramid Head's appearance
3. The map clashes with previous games' maps (and not just in building placement; Toluca Lake is restructured, eliminating a road that appeared on SH1's and SH0's maps)
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Re: pyramid head or boogeyman? should he have been there?

Post by clips »

SilentWren wrote:^That's EXACTLY what I'm saying.

If they wanted to draw from the prison executioners, that would've been one thing, but he was so obviously a PH knock off. It's like they were insulting our intelligence by calling him by a different name.
For that matter, what was that thing in Origins called?

I mentioned something similar on the previous page....and the guy you're looking for is that other lame imposter..."The Butcher"
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Re: pyramid head or boogeyman? should he have been there?

Post by stopped_clock »

Although I actually prefer Origins to Homecoming I can't, or at least won't, ever argue in defence of the presence of The Butcher. It was a horrendous PH knock-off badly shoe-horned into the plot for basically no reason at all.
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Re: pyramid head or boogeyman? should he have been there?

Post by Soulless-Shadow »

leftshoe18 wrote:It doesn't matter that Pyramid Head is in Homecoming since it's probably not even the same canon as James' story. I like to think that Homecoming takes place in the same canon as the movie, which also had PH, for a few reasons.
There's a few things you're overlooking, but I'll get to them in a moment. I'll address some of your points first.
leftshoe18 wrote:1. The presence of The Grand Hotel
I don't recall exactly where about the Grand Hotel was in Homecoming, but there are two possibilities; It's located in an area we've never been to before, or it was built not long/some time after Origins and SH1. It's not uncommon for towns to change over time, especially considering that Origins apparently took place in the 70's, and SH1 in the 80's (I think), while Homecoming was set in whatever year it was released. That's almost 20 to 30 years of potential development.
leftshoe18 wrote:2. Pyramid Head's appearance
I think this has been mentioned on the last page. Basically, James' PH is based on the executioners from Silent Hill's cult as is Homecoming's PH. I believe there are a few differences though. For example, James' PH was mostly based off the painting he saw in the Historical Society. He probably knew about the towns past, and subconsciously though executioners = justice. And given his guilt... ;)
As for Homecoming, the cult in SG was a split off from the cult of SH, so they would've retained some of their original stories and beliefs, including that of the executioners. Because they messed up with the sacrifices, they expected to be punished, hence PH being in Homecoming. What I believe to be the main difference is that the people of SG (or the four families) were more closely related to the executioners and the stories than James, given their religion. Meanwhile, James was just a tourist.
leftshoe18 wrote:3. The map clashes with previous games' maps (and not just in building placement; Toluca Lake is restructured, eliminating a road that appeared on SH1's and SH0's maps)
Like I said with your first point, it's something like 20 to 30 years since Origins/SH1, so changes are to be expected. I don't necessarily mean town development either. Because of the bad floods in Queensland (and then the cyclone) I won't be surprised if a lot of towns look greatly different to what they did before once they're rebuilt. It could be something similar with SH. Sure, there's no mention about such things in Homecoming, but not every little thing needs to be documented in-game. It could just be left for the player to figure out.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the cult the SG founders broke away from was the cult of SH (the game, not the movie). I recall notes and memos actually mentioning "The Order", which is what the SH cult is referred to as. One note even mentions The Order being exposed and broken up. The religious people in the movie didn't have the chance to be exposed and...what? Disbanded? :?
There is also Wheeler's conversation about a missing police officer, who many people believes might be Cybil. He mentions a female police officer from Brahms going missing while he was looking for work there. That was years before Homecoming. It couldn't be Movie-Cybil because she only recently found her way to Silent Hill.

Ok, I think that was all I wanted to say... :? Too much typing...
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Re: pyramid head or boogeyman? should he have been there?

Post by BlackRose »

leftshoe18 wrote:2. Pyramid Head's appearance
I think this has been mentioned on the last page. Basically, James' PH is based on the executioners from Silent Hill's cult as is Homecoming's PH. I believe there are a few differences though. For example, James' PH was mostly based off the painting he saw in the Historical Society. He probably knew about the towns past, and subconsciously though executioners = justice. And given his guilt... ;)
As for Homecoming, the cult in SG was a split off from the cult of SH, so they would've retained some of their original stories and beliefs, including that of the executioners. Because they messed up with the sacrifices, they expected to be punished, hence PH being in Homecoming. What I believe to be the main difference is that the people of SG (or the four families) were more closely related to the executioners and the stories than James, given their religion. Meanwhile, James was just a tourist.


Still doesn't explain why they used the exact design from the movie. Fair enough with the whole "boogeyman" thing but it was blatently PH with a different name.
Last edited by BlackRose on 19 Feb 2011, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: pyramid head or boogeyman? should he have been there?

Post by Soulless-Shadow »

BlackRose wrote: Still doesn't explain why they used the exact design from the movie.
I'm pretty sure I mentioned it a few times before, but it was probably nothing more than fan service. There's a lot in Homecoming that was inspired by the movie. For example, the transition to the otherworld, the miners, and I think the church.
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Re: pyramid head or boogeyman? should he have been there?

Post by Mephisto »

And, like I said before about the fan service: Unfortunately it backfired.

They were just trying to borrow things they found cool and, maybe, some of them thought that some fans would like them.

It makes me laugh when someone bitchs about the Otherworld from Homecoming. For crying out loud, it has rust and blood, just like the first games. Just like those "hardcore fans" wanted.
Ran out of reasons and ideas to bitch, as usual.

Someone at Double Helix deserve to be fuckin' mad at some smart ass' comments about how Homecoming was trash because "they didn't made anything right" or because "they're americans" or because they "us3d PH again!!111 FAUK TH3M!111!!! ITZ JAMEZ 0NLY111!!@"

And you can't deny that they have the rights to be mad. As so does the fanbase.

But the game isn't trash. That is a fact.

Konami never denied the fact that Homecoming wasn't canon. Like it or not it's still a SH game. It's canon.
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Re: pyramid head or boogeyman? should he have been there?

Post by Soulless-Shadow »

Mephisto wrote:And, like I said before about the fan service: Unfortunately it backfired.

They were just trying to borrow things they found cool and, maybe, some of them thought that some fans would like them.
I believe they really thought fans would love it, otherwise I don't think they would've reused so much. In fact, when the movie was first out a lot of fans (from an old forum I used to frequent) wanted the movie stuff in a game. Of course, some of those fans then complained of Homecoming's unoriginality... :roll:
Mephisto wrote:It makes me laugh when someone bitchs about the Otherworld from Homecoming. For crying out loud, it has rust and blood, just like the first games. Just like those "hardcore fans" wanted.
Ran out of reasons and ideas to bitch, as usual.
A lot of the fans from the forum I mentioned seemed to think the otherworld was all about blood and rust, and nothing else. In my experience those kinds of fans are more vocal than the kind who realize the otherworld is different for each person. We should blame those fans and not the developers. :)
Mephisto wrote:Someone at Double Helix deserve to be fuckin' mad at some smart ass' comments about how Homecoming was trash because "they didn't made anything right" or because "they're americans" or because they "us3d PH again!!111 FAUK TH3M!111!!! ITZ JAMEZ 0NLY111!!@"

And you can't deny that they have the rights to be mad. As so does the fanbase.

But the game isn't trash. That is a fact.
I liked Homecoming. It might not be the best SH game (for me that would be SH1), but I still enjoyed playing it, and that's enough for me. :)

It seems that most people can't get over the fact that PH looks exactly like his movie counterpart, and therefore automatically think he has no purpose in the game other than fan service. Yes, his design is fan service, but that's what fans (in my experience) wanted. If one stops and thinks about it though, they can easily come to the conclusion that he's actually there for a reason. While PH in SH2 was solely James creation, James' PH and Homecoming's PH were based on the same source, and each have similar but different roles. Either way, Homecoming's PH has more reason than plain old fan service to be there.
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Re: pyramid head or boogeyman? should he have been there?

Post by Trauma_ »

A lot of the fans from the forum I mentioned seemed to think the otherworld was all about blood and rust, and nothing else. In my experience those kinds of fans are more vocal than the kind who realize the otherworld is different for each person. We should blame those fans and not the developers
Actually the whole subjective reality shtick only applied to SH2 up until now. It is different in each game, but not in the way people think it is. The differences between 1, 3, and HC visually are very minute. In MY experience, the fans that were more vocal were the ones that rode 2's dick and insisted that the otherworld being subjective was the only possibility.
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Re: pyramid head or boogeyman? should he have been there?

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>I recall notes and memos actually mentioning "The Order", which is what the SH cult is referred to as.<
I countered this in leftshoe18's thread: Mentioning Silent Hill characters by name in Silent Hill: Homecoming doesn't canonize it because, after all, Silent Hill: Movie uses the same names as in Silent Hill, yet they are clearly separate universes. Therefore, we can apply the same logic to distance Homecoming from the Silent Hill canon
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Re: pyramid head or boogeyman? should he have been there?

Post by SHF »

^
You mean when Wheeler mentions Cybil? Has Team Silent verified that it isn't canon?
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Re: pyramid head or boogeyman? should he have been there?

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a) Token doesn't mention the officer by name, and b) Team Silent isn't ever going to recognize anything as canonical or non-canonical—those terms are strictly applied by fans of the series.
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Re: pyramid head or boogeyman? should he have been there?

Post by SilentWren »

^Lol @ "Token."
Also-there's a problem with that second point--nobody is ever going to be able to agree on what's canon and what isn't. Silent Hill fans INVENT shit to argue about. We wrote the book on disagreeing. (Don't hate. You know I'm right.)

As much as I disliked Homecoming, it didn't do any real retconning, did it? There's no reason why it can't be considered, like, a "side story" canon, is there?
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Re: pyramid head or boogeyman? should he have been there?

Post by Soulless-Shadow »

The Adversary wrote:>I recall notes and memos actually mentioning "The Order", which is what the SH cult is referred to as.<
I countered this in leftshoe18's thread: Mentioning Silent Hill characters by name in Silent Hill: Homecoming doesn't canonize it because, after all, Silent Hill: Movie uses the same names as in Silent Hill, yet they are clearly separate universes. Therefore, we can apply the same logic to distance Homecoming from the Silent Hill canon
Good point. It's been a while since I've seen the movie, so didn't remember movie-cult was also called "The Order".
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Re: pyramid head or boogeyman? should he have been there?

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All I'm seeing is somebody wanting Homecoming not to be canon simply because they didn't like it.
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Re: pyramid head or boogeyman? should he have been there?

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>Also-there's a problem with that second point--nobody is ever going to be able to agree on what's canon and what isn't.<
That is the problem, yes. Unfortunately a lot of people just don't understand the concept canonicity. . . .

>All I'm seeing is somebody wanting Homecoming not to be canon simply because they didn't like it<
I don't give a shit either way. I can just as easily ignore the game as I can apply what it attempted to be to the rest of the series. However, I can also just as well argue both sides of the canonical/non-canonical issue. Because

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