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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 20 Jan 2005
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Last seen at: Alchemilla Hospital
So, this been bothering me ever since I played the game a few years back (my first and only play-through) and I searched the SH5 forums to make sure I wasn't making an necessary new thread, please correct me kindly if I am wrong. This is a topic that I think could use some in-depth discussion:
- Homecoming is the only Silent Hill game in the franchise that consistently uses humans for enemies.
Now, at first I was upset at the game designers for making me feel so uncomfortable for having to kill them in self defense but I then wondered if that was the point. Are they trying to make us feel guilty about killing humans? Are they trying to make us feel like a soldier like Alex would have felt (key word: would)? But can we really give DoubleHelix that much credit here? Did killing Eddie in SH2 make you feel the same way? How did you feel about the subject?
I will assume most of you've played SH3 and witnessed Vincent's famous line: "They look like monsters to you?" Does SH5 ruin the validity of that insightful line by introducing the miners? How could the monsters be humans if you are fighting literal humans as well? To me, what Vince said can now only pertain to SH3.

Please discuss.

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Last edited by put_here_2_feel_joy on 09 Nov 2010, edited 2 times in total.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Feb 2009
Notes left: 6907
Quote:
Are they trying to make us feel guilty about killing humans?

No. . . They only wanted to add a bit of fun to the game, you know. . .


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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 20 Jan 2005
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So it's fun to kill people? Am I the only one who is bothered by this?
I was always under the impression that, Silent Hill being the serious game that it is, almost every new development and new theme introduced is something to take note of. For them to add humans to your hit-list is kinda huge.
Or maybe DoubleHelix didn't understand the connotations.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Feb 2009
Notes left: 6907
Quote:
So it's fun to kill people?

It's a videogame. . . You're 20, you should know more than anyone else. . .

Quote:
Am I the only one who is bothered by this?

That's what it looks like. Besides, it's self-defence anyway. It's kill or be killed.

Quote:
I was always under the impression that, Silent Hill being the serious game that it is [. . .]

What? Are you forgetting about the UFO endings?


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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 20 Jan 2005
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Mephisto wrote:
What? Are you forgetting about the UFO endings?
Obviously, the UFO endings are meant to make you laugh and are not apart of normal gameplay.

And yes, it's fun to kill people in videogames (for instance Uncharted 1&2) but I've seen SH series as something different. You kill dogs, disfigured monsters and demon nurses but never humans outright and never for fun. Like the example of offing Eddie in SH2, James appeared to cry after killing "a human being..."
Is any of this making any sense?

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Feb 2009
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I understand your point and you're making sense, don't worry about it.

I just think you're looking into it way too much.


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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 20 Jan 2005
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lol... Thanks, Mephisto for making me feel less crazy.

Come on! It's SH! They've taught us to look deeper over the years. DoubleHelix disappoints me.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Feb 2009
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The simplest answer I can give you about the "guilty" feel is that with Eddie, even if we liked or disliked him, we had a connection. We had plenty of conversations and everything. And when I say "we" I'm talking about James and the gamers.

But with these soldiers. . . nothing happened. They're just grunts. John-Doe's.


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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 20 Jan 2005
Notes left: 431
Last seen at: Alchemilla Hospital
Mephisto wrote:
They're just grunts. John-Doe's.
-sniffle- I tell you! They're people, too! ...Teeple poo.. :P

Well, hopefully some other people will have something to say about this (not that your input isn't valuable). Just because the game designers didn't mean for there to be a deeper meaning doesn't mean the player didn't feel or think of one.

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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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>Am I the only one who is bothered by this?<
No. I am.

If Double Helix wanted to include human "monsters," the monsters should have been transfigured, too, accordingly.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2009
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I've yet to play Homecoming (I certainly will at some point though) but the thought of killing humans as if they're just run of the mill enemies is mildly bizarre to me. I mean, it doesn't make me feel sad or anything (after all, it's not real), but the notion just doesn't seem fitting for a SH game.

Also, I think it raises a good point, mentioning that once upon a time, the thought that monsters = human was meant to freak you out (thank you, Father Vincent), and now that whole little idea is pretty much cheapened to the point of nonexistance.

It's quite possible that the developers didn't even think about taking that bit from SH3 into account though. I dunno. From what I've read/seen of Homecoming, I really have nothing against it or reason to bash it, but I think that human enemies wasn't a sharp move.

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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 20 Jan 2005
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>If Double Helix wanted to include human "monsters," the monsters should have been transfigured, too, accordingly.
So you're saying that it would have been better suited for you if the people were more like the demon doctors and nurses from SH1? I'm not really sure what you mean. Most of the monsters were humanoid already.

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 26 Mar 2010
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I think Double Helix included it primarily because it "fit" into the story that they were creating. Whether it was necessary, opposed established themes, or was a movie influenced choice...

It was certainly the thing I disliked the most about it.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 27 Jul 2009
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It certainly doesn't fit in with the whole "silent hill enemy" thing to me. I guess because the design of the game was flawed.


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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Sep 2008
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I thought the Order Soldiers were effective. The game took a disturbing turn when they became enemies, it was very brutal. It becomes even more disturbing when you think about who they are and realize they are more than likely the missing persons of Shepherd's Glen that the story was covering earlier on.

Also the way the faceless human enemies tie into Alex's delusion without necessarily being a manifestation of the otherworld is an interesting setup.

Edit-

Quote:
Are they trying to make us feel guilty about killing humans? Are they trying to make us feel like a soldier like Alex would have felt (key word: would)? But can we really give DoubleHelix that much credit here?


Yes. I believe we can. I think the problem is that not enough people do this. There is a lot more to Homecoming than many even bother to find.


Last edited by Nyarlathotep on 10 Nov 2010, edited 2 times in total.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 13 Aug 2006
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As far as I'm concerned, when you consider the kind of things the miners had been involved with (eg torturing innocent people), then they're just as monstrous as any of the other disfigured abominations you come across in the SH games. And like others had pointed out, it's all about self-defence. So Alex really had no other choice BUT to kill them.

I do like your theory though that perhaps the killing of real humans in this game was meant to parallel the facts of war, but this point may not really apply once you learn the real truth...


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2010
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^Maybe the point was to make the player feel that way during gameplay, so the twist would be all the more shocking?

It definitely makes one reflect on Vincent's little joke in 3, though.
I honestly don't know how I felt about it. It definitely says something about Alex.

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1559
For me the soldiers were out of place in a SH game, but I believe there's more to them than cheap combat and action. I was thinking the soldiers and their actions are similar to the actions and motives of the founders of Shepard's Glenn and their descendants. They all committed atrocious acts because of blind faith and fear. They were innocents (emphasis on "were") who got caught up in something bigger than themselves, and instead of fighting back they fell in line and did their duty because they thought it was the only way.


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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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Last seen at: #lfk
>So you're saying that it would have been better suited for you if the people were more like the demon doctors and nurses from SH1?<
I am, though specifically I had the Missionary and Scrapers of Silent Hill 3 in mind: humans transfigured to appear as monsters to Heather.

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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 20 Jan 2005
Notes left: 431
Last seen at: Alchemilla Hospital
Like Fevered Dream says, I suppose these guys don't have to be disguised as monsters because they simply are monsters on their own.
Even with that said, I don't think it was a wise choice to add people to the "monster" roster.

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