Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)

[Soulless-Shadow]

Incidentally, my favorite hypocrisy of AVALANCHE is that they're a bunch of environmentalists killing all of the animals outside of Midgar. That one's pretty rich.

Wasn't it mentioned somewhere in FF7 that a lot of animals had turned into monsters due to over exposure to mako? Anyway, I always found it amusing that they could justify blowing up an entire reactor and kill goodness knows how many innocents without a care in the world, but were upset and angry when Shin-ra squished sector 7 slums.

[Kenji]

Some of the monsters did come from the Makou reactors, but all of them? Even the ones far from any reactor? Even if it were the case, I've never seen a hardcore environmentalist (hardcore enough to engage in terrorism) advocate saving only the cuddly animals and wholesale slaughtering the ones that tend to attack people.

Anyway, I don't think any of it was intentional. Squaresoft crafted the game system, then the story, and then put them together without giving much thought to whether the two coexist harmoniously. They still pursue that design method - see Hope Estheim's personality and contrast it with his behavior in gameplay.

[put_here_2_feel_joy]

Why has this turned into a Gandhi / Hitler / Final Fantasy thread?
Were talking about Silent Hill 5 and the designer's decision to include humans in the monster roster. At least TRY to tie it back into the original topic. lol

And for the record, I'm a pacifist... Alex Shepard is not. (See what I did there?)

[AuraTwilight]

It's because Silent Hill: Homecoming is basically a Saw crossover.

[Shadow]

^ Does that make Judge Holloway a Jigsaw apprentice?

[SilentWren]

At the risk of dragging the FFVII conversation out any further, I think AVALANCHE really were terrorists. But only by definition. They took fate into their own hands, and tried to forcibly create a future that was better for their children. (well....all children. I guess Marlene was the only kid...you know what I meant there)

Yes, they were hypocritical about it, but making drastic world change requires sacrifices. It just sucked to be one of the people that...you know...got....blown....up.....

[put_here_2_feel_joy]

>It's because Silent Hill: Homecoming is basically a Saw crossover.
Yep. What with the whole scene involving Lillian, and all.
Ah! We can include that in the discussion. Do you think that killing miners and parents are related? Jeez, Alex is more of a murderer than James and he wasn't half as bothered by it. And Heather couldn't even manage one measly kill. Pathetic.

[Mephisto]

^ Alex killed his mom out of mercy, everyone knows that. Don't mistake "casual" murdering with euthanasia.

[put_here_2_feel_joy]

>Don't mistake "casual" murdering with euthanasia.
So now were back to being serious? This thread is so confusing. I was just trying to goad someone into talking about the topic. Guess it worked, huh?

[Mephisto]

^ The thread became confusing when that FF talk started. There's plenty of FF threads in the forum, people should post in those.

Guess it worked, huh?

It worked for me. Don't know about the others. . .

[Pyramid Head15]

If there was one aspect of Homecoming that bothered me, it was the miners. It just felt so out of placed in a Silent Hill game but at the same time, it felt right for the game and gave it a interesting twist that I was not expecting. My feeling on it is mixed

[mikefile]

Maybe at the beginning Alex couldn't immagine what was going on ("The Order").. maybe, if we put Vincent's theory on the horse.. but then there are lots of variables:
all or some of the monsters were actual humans, all or some of them were cult members or innocent bystanders.. in other words he saw cult members as monsters 'cause if he didn't.. he should remember of what he did (Joshua's death) since it's all connected.
But only in the end.. after the whole explanation of Margaret, Alex realised what was going on (except of course the ultimate truth- the one he wasn't ready for yet-- that's why there is a short timing between Jigsaw's appreantice scene-- as you said-- ), and he didn't have the need to continue his manifestation of humans as monsters.. so he sees them the way they are.

[AuraTwilight]

There's no way that any of the monsters were actually humans, considering that everyone in Shepherd's Glenn sees them exactly the same way as Alex does, and they try and kill everyone, and they exhibit superhuman feats like crushing and flipping over cop cars.

Vincent's line is full of shit and is really specific to only a few specific entities in SH3. It shouldn't be applied to the whole series like that, it's just chowderheaded.

[Pyramid Head15]

I never understood why people get the idea the monsters are people. I would think the series made it obvious that they weren't.

[mikefile]

I disagree. It's not just black or white. Even if some monsters represent emotions, symbols or whatsoever, it doesn't mean that some of them aren't really humans. And I'm not just talking about Vincent here, the whole Silent Hill series is applying it- in SH1 Lisa understands what she really is: "I'm just like them!"; in the Bad ending of SH4 :"Five police officers were found dead..... many complain of sever chest pain."; the Bad ending of SHO; and don't wanna talk about 'cause it isn't out yet, but in the trailer of SH8 Murphy shoots a monster that appears later to be human.

... they try and kill everyone, and they exhibit superhuman feats like crushing and flipping over cop cars.

That doesn't mean anything, I thought you were supposed to know that. If Alex doesn't see them the way they are, it means he also can't see their acts the way they are as well. To him it may seem they are attacking him, but what would you do if you see a wacko running with a knife around the streets (except for run of course)?.. just making examples, doesn't mean it has to be just like that. Human acts are manifefested to those people according to the way they see them, ex. Walter saw the people filled with stains of corruption. It doesn't mean that if a Siam flipped a car means it was a human that did it.

I am not saying that all monsters represent humans, but some of them do, and not just a few specific entities in SH3.

[Typographenia]

Vincent's line is full of shit and is really specific to only a few specific entities in SH3. It shouldn't be applied to the whole series like that, it's just chowderheaded.

THANK YOU.
I'm so sick and tired of seeing those people who don't get this, or just assume that every creature in-game was a person. Vincent, I loathe you for causing me so much grief with one simple line...

SH1 Lisa understands what she really is: "I'm just like them!"; in the Bad ending of SH4 :"Five police officers were found dead..... many complain of sever chest pain."; the Bad ending of SHO; and don't wanna talk about 'cause it isn't out yet, but in the trailer of SH8 Murphy shoots a monster that appears later to be human.

-I thought Lisa was

PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER_SHOW PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER:

part of the manifestation, or she was just part of the nightmare world now. We never encounter her in the real world, and she never turns into a creature. I thought she was just a representation sustained by Alessa that had some part of the real Lisa left in her, since she drags Kaufman down at the end.

-How are the police officers monster-people, exactly?
-I think you may have taken the SHOrigins ending too much at face value.

PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER_SHOW PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER:

It looked like it was more an attempt for the developers to make sure you understood that the Butcher was supposed to represent Travis, since he was a killer.

-The SH8 trailer is actually tricking you. If you pay close attention, the man that Murphy appears to have shot, actually has cuts across his chest, not a gunshot wound. Editing department just wanted to fool us. : P

That doesn't mean anything, I thought you were supposed to know that. If Alex doesn't see them the way they are, it means he also can't see their acts the way they are as well. To him it may seem they are attacking him, but what would you do if you see a wacko running with a knife around the streets (except for run of course)?.. just making examples, doesn't mean it has to be just like that. Human acts are manifefested to those people according to the way they see them, ex. Walter saw the people filled with stains of corruption. It doesn't mean that if a Siam flipped a car means it was a human that did it.

But... the car did flip.
I know that's kind of missing the point you're making, but Elle was in the car getting flipped. I'm pretty sure she didn't just imagine it for the fun of it. There's always a matter of perception, but I'm fairly certain those aren't a matter of your eyes playing tricks on you.

I think that almost 99% of the creatures in the games are not people, but many of them are humanoid in some way.

[AuraTwilight]

I disagree. It's not just black or white. Even if some monsters represent emotions, symbols or whatsoever, it doesn't mean that some of them aren't really humans. And I'm not just talking about Vincent here, the whole Silent Hill series is applying it- in SH1 Lisa understands what she really is: "I'm just like them!"; in the Bad ending of SH4 :"Five police officers were found dead..... many complain of sever chest pain."; the Bad ending of SHO; and don't wanna talk about 'cause it isn't out yet, but in the trailer of SH8 Murphy shoots a monster that appears later to be human.

1) Most monsters aren't humans. That's a fact regardless of symbolism.
2) Lisa is clearly a special case and is more like Maria than a normal monster.
3) The bad ending of SH4 was talking about people dying AFTER Henry already died. Unless you think he's magically giving people chest pains during the game.
4) SHO's bad ending, at best, is Travis being a serial killer before he came to town, considering the dialog and context. At worst, he's just delusional and self-loathing
5) Trailers lie and there's no legitimate reason to believe that was an accurate shot. Infact, I would argue we were intentionally mislead.

Regardless of what you may think, SH1 and SH3 are the only games with confirmed human/monsters.

That doesn't mean anything, I thought you were supposed to know that. If Alex doesn't see them the way they are, it means he also can't see their acts the way they are as well. To him it may seem they are attacking him, but what would you do if you see a wacko running with a knife around the streets (except for run of course)?.. just making examples, doesn't mean it has to be just like that. Human acts are manifefested to those people according to the way they see them, ex. Walter saw the people filled with stains of corruption. It doesn't mean that if a Siam flipped a car means it was a human that did it.

So...if it looks like a monster, and flips a car over, but the actual human isn't a monster, and didn't do what the monster did, HOW IN THE FUCK IS THE MONSTER ACTUALLY A HUMAN? Are humans being fucking mind controlled into attacking people? How do you explain that Elle's car was actually flipped over and crushed? That was no goddamn illusion.

Everyone in Homecoming sees the same exact monsters. That's not even up for debate because the game is so completely unsubtle about it.

I am not saying that all monsters represent humans, but some of them do, and not just a few specific entities in SH3.

You've completely failed to demonstrate that any monsters besides the SH1 nurses and the specific SH3 monsters are human whatsoever.

I guess we can count the SH4 ghosts too, if you really want, but they're clearly special, too.

[mikefile]

Most monsters aren't humans. That's a fact regardless of symbolism.

Agree, I never said they were.

3) The bad ending of SH4 was talking about people dying AFTER Henry already died. Unless you think he's magically giving people chest pains during the game.

No. The reporter said they were FOUND dead, after Henry died. The chest pain here is just an example; I never said that Henry gave them the chest pain.. the statement just reminds me a lot of the rubber face.

SHO's bad ending, at best, is Travis being a serial killer before he came to town, considering the dialog and context. At worst, he's just delusional and self-loathing

So you're saying that the dialog is just an illusion?

Trailers lie and there's no legitimate reason to believe that was an accurate shot. Infact, I would argue we were intentionally mislead.

Agree; I said not to take that literally.

So...if it looks like a monster, and flips a car over, but the actual human isn't a monster, and didn't do what the monster did, HOW IN THE FUCK IS THE MONSTER ACTUALLY A HUMAN? Are humans being fucking mind controlled into attacking people? How do you explain that Elle's car was actually flipped over and crushed? That was no goddamn illusion.

First of all, calm down.. I'm just saying the way I see it.. don't need to get all worked up. Second, You were the one that brought up the flippin' car, I also said that not all are humans; it's just that we can't know for shure which aren't and which not. All acts in the game don't have to be literal. And last, by all people you mean Alex, Elle and Wheeler. ?

[AuraTwilight]

No. The reporter said they were FOUND dead, after Henry died. The chest pain here is just an example; I never said that Henry gave them the chest pain.. the statement just reminds me a lot of the rubber face.

Then you're committing some sort of false correlation. People were found dead after Henry died, meaning Henry isn't responsible, meaning this is not an example of Henry perceiving living humans as monsters. What's most likely happening is that since Walter managed to summon God, the world is starting to end.

So you're saying that the dialog is just an illusion?

That depends on what you mean. But we do, technically, hear it in his head. Though seriously, considering it's contextual clues, either Travis killed people BEFORE the game started, or he's making future scenarios in his head. I actually wrote a thread on my theories for this ending and it's potential implicatons for Silent Hill in general. You can find it in the Quicklinks section for...either Origins or General, I don't remember which.

Agree; I said not to take that literally.

If you realize it was just a trick of the editing studio, how is it evidence?

Second, You were the one that brought up the flippin' car, I also said that not all are humans; it's just that we can't know for shure which aren't and which not. All acts in the game don't have to be literal. And last, by all people you mean Alex, Elle and Wheeler.

In literally every instance where it is even mildly implied that some monsters might be humans, it is always the same type of monster. The SH1 Nurses, and the Scrapers and Missionaries in SH3, for instance. There is no such instance where, for example, some Patients are humans and some aren't. If there. Unless you want to imply that ALL Siams are humans, you are invoking a logical fallacy called Special Pleading. If you are not implying such, then your statement about humans not matching up to the actions of their monster visages is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. You've been using this "it doesn't have to be literal" thing to avoid having to explain, or discard, points you've been making, and weaseling out of counterpoints. The irony of it all is that most of Silent Hill's manifestations lean toward the literal side.

And by all people, I mean ALL PEOPLE. Everyone Alex meets in the game sees the monsters. People ran over the dogs, the parents encountered the boss monsters and such, Alex's mother encountered a Lurker from the basement...

[mikefile]

People were found dead after Henry died, meaning Henry isn't responsible, meaning this is not an example of Henry perceiving living humans as monsters.

But how?? You never explained how Henry's not responsible and why isn't he perceiving humans as monsters?
Besides, I also think it isn't his fault, 'cause people complaining chest pain have to be fucking alive! Not shure about the dead officers officers. It doesn't mean that if Henry didn't slash them to death, they aren't monsters.

That depends on what you mean. But we do, technically, hear it in his head. Though seriously, considering it's contextual clues, either Travis killed people BEFORE the game started, or he's making future scenarios in his head. I actually wrote a thread on my theories for this ending and it's potential implicatons for Silent Hill in general. You can find it in the Quicklinks section for...either Origins or General, I don't remember which.

I think it's simple that it couldn't be more simple: in the bad ending, when let's say Alessa's domination ends, he's out of her world; and he then sees/remembers things the way they are- killing a woman, a man and a receptionist. That's why he understands that he's the butcher. Therefore we know that the butcher was there not to represent guilt for killing monsters that never existed or for slashing some illusions, but for killing real persons. And I doubt he was a serial killer before he came to town, or that the voices of people he heard were representing persons he killed before the game started.

In literally every instance where it is even mildly implied that some monsters might be humans, it is always the same type of monster. The SH1 Nurses, and the Scrapers and Missionaries in SH3, for instance. There is no such instance where, for example, some Patients are humans and some aren't. If there. Unless you want to imply that ALL Siams are humans, you are invoking a logical fallacy called Special Pleading. If you are not implying such, then your statement about humans not matching up to the actions of their monster visages is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. You've been using this "it doesn't have to be literal" thing to avoid having to explain, or discard, points you've been making, and weaseling out of counterpoints.

In other words, all monsters of the same species have to represent or a human or an illusion. So all scrapers in SH3 have to be human? But now that you made me think about it... . you invent an illusion monster.. you get so obsessed about it, you become mad, the next thing happens when you're in your own world and you see a person that's tryin' to snap you out of it or whatever.. you could see the person as the illusion monster..

The irony of it all is that most of Silent Hill's manifestations lean toward the literal side.

Yeah, that's true, 'cause if it wasn't we wouldn' have any reference .

People ran over the dogs

sorry, .. on what were you refering to?

Alex's mother encountered a Lurker from the basement...

I don't remember her saying that.. I remember some vanishing wet floor, etc.. gotta pass it again.

the parents encountered the boss monsters and such

THE boss monster. Of course they did, 'cause it's their own personal monsters.. but I doubt they could see a Schism or Smog (regardless the thing Alex can see their's, but that's a different matter).

About people seeing monsters in Homecoming.. I was always sospicious about it.. about Wheeler, Elle and Alex. They're the only positive and active characters in the game.. and they see the same monsters no matter what. Then I became more concearned when I read their diaries.. diaries of three persons -- Elle, Alex and Wheeler.. exactly of those who see the same monsters. Since we are playing through Alex.. we know that he never was in the army.. so the diary part about it is BS. And what about their too? The way deputy is all paranoid and Elle is.. well she's just freaky. We get inside their mind and see and learn things about them that we didn't in the game. Do they have some holes in their diaries too?