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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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>I thought Lisa was part of the manifestation<
Lisa is a parasitized human until the parasite takes over completely and kills her at the end.

>in the Bad ending of SH4 :"Five police officers were found dead..... many complain of sever chest pain."<
The chest pain is a reference to Silent Hill, and how Alessa killed several people responsible for developing the town, including the anti-drug mayor. The point is this power Walter has is capable of spreading, and killing who he wants, much in the same way Alessa was able to kill people just by wishing it.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
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The Adversary wrote:
The chest pain is a reference to Silent Hill, and how Alessa killed several people responsible for developing the town, including the anti-drug mayor. The point is this power Walter has is capable of spreading, and killing who he wants, much in the same way Alessa was able to kill people just by wishing it.
How is the chest pain reference to Walter's capability for the killing spree of everyone he wants just like Alessa? And what does the mayor have to do with it? sorry, but you explained nothing here.

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)

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mikefile wrote:
The Adversary wrote:
The chest pain is a reference to Silent Hill, and how Alessa killed several people responsible for developing the town, including the anti-drug mayor. The point is this power Walter has is capable of spreading, and killing who he wants, much in the same way Alessa was able to kill people just by wishing it.
How is the chest pain reference to Walter's capability for the killing spree of everyone he wants just like Alessa? And what does the mayor have to do with it? sorry, but you explained nothing here.

Alessa's powers were used to kill certain people (town developers if I remember correctly, as well as people investigating the drug trafficking). The mayor was one such person, and died of a heart attack (caused by Alessa's powers).
*edit*
Info about it is here, but it doesn't really say much more than already posted.


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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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>How is the chest pain reference to Walter's capability for the killing spree of everyone he wants just like Alessa? <
The people referenced in the news report weren't people Walter targeted and killed face-to-face like the victims. They were victims of a præternatural ability to kill via god's presence.

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Brookhaven Receptionist
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Has it ever been confirmed that the deaths were down to Alessa? That article that was linked just says "suspicious deaths...unknown origin". That could have any number of potential explanations.

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The above post, unless otherwise stated, should only be taken as personal opinion.
"The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up ... wake up and smell the ashes."
"Sometimes... the truth isn't good enough. Sometimes people deserve more. Sometimes people deserve to have their faith rewarded."


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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mikefile wrote:
AuraTwilight wrote:
People ran over the dogs

sorry, .. on what were you refering to?

Dead dogs + cars. Does that ring a bell? :wink:

mikefile wrote:
AuraTwilight wrote:
Alex's mother encountered a Lurker from the basement...

I don't remember her saying that.. I remember some vanishing wet floor, etc.. gotta pass it again.

She never said anything about it but we can assume she did saw a Lurker. She went to the flooded basement and just ran upstairs after that. The floor is all wet with footprints. . .


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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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>Has it ever been confirmed that the deaths were down to Alessa?<
I wouldn't say so otherwise.

"Being a firsthand witness to the deaths of the mayor and a narcotics officer, both of which were brought about by means of the magic drawn from the embryonic malevolent god's power, it seems [Michael Kaufmann] came to the decision that if the magic was something he could use, he would take advantage of it."

When Dahlia tells Alessa she "just want[s Alessa] to lend [her] a teeny bit of [Alessa's] power," this is what she's using it for.

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Brookhaven Receptionist
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Ah, I never even thought of linking that speech to the deaths. I always thought it was Kaufmann/Lisa or Dahlia drugging them. Kaufmann would know exactly what drug to use to cause a heart attack and could probably bribe the coroner to say it was natural causes. But, that seems like a much better explanation.

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The above post, unless otherwise stated, should only be taken as personal opinion.
"The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up ... wake up and smell the ashes."
"Sometimes... the truth isn't good enough. Sometimes people deserve more. Sometimes people deserve to have their faith rewarded."


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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The Adversary wrote:
The people referenced in the news report weren't people Walter targeted and killed face-to-face like the victims. They were victims of a præternatural ability to kill via god's presence.

That's more like it!
But you are talking about the news-report in general, in other words the 5 police officers found dead + Eileen +the superintendent + the chest pain were just a random inset by the devolpers to imply the "præternatural ability to kill via god's presence". So you're saying ..they individually mean nothing?

Mephisto wrote:
She never said anything about it but we can assume she did saw a Lurker. She went to the flooded basement and just ran upstairs after that. The floor is all wet with footprints. . .

ASSUME is the right word here.
But what about the vanishing wet floor- first you see it wet (mum comes out of the basement), then it's not.. later it is again? Maybe it has to do something with the water of the lake were the accident happened..

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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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I have no idea what you're trying to say.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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mikefile wrote:
Mephisto wrote:
She never said anything about it but we can assume she did saw a Lurker. She went to the flooded basement and just ran upstairs after that. The floor is all wet with footprints. . .

ASSUME is the right word here.
But what about the vanishing wet floor- first you see it wet (mum comes out of the basement), then it's not.. later it is again? Maybe it has to do something with the water of the lake were the accident happened..

Dude................. How old are you? Maybe she cleaned the floor (and don't start a "she was too depressed to do it!" talk). Or the footprints vanished/dried.You're looking for symbolisms in a thing that doesn't have any. Sometimes a cigar is just a fuckin' cigar.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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mikefile wrote:
ASSUME is the right word here.
But what about the vanishing wet floor- first you see it wet (mum comes out of the basement), then it's not.. later it is again? Maybe it has to do something with the water of the lake were the accident happened..


You are aware that water evaporates and floors/carpets dry...

right?

I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about re: the floor ~magically~ being wet again. The only other time in the game where the floor of the house is visibly wet after that first lurker is if you get the special after-credits ending and
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Josh's ghost comes in and tracks lake water throughout the house.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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But how?? You never explained how Henry's not responsible and why isn't he perceiving humans as monsters?
Besides, I also think it isn't his fault, 'cause people complaining chest pain have to be fucking alive! Not shure about the dead officers officers. It doesn't mean that if Henry didn't slash them to death, they aren't monsters.


Why do I have to explain why something isn't true if the game doesn't say that something even happened. You might as well ask "But how?? You never explained how Dahlia isn't an alien space robot piloted by a dog."

Henry fucking died. After Henry is dead, other people died. Henry is not a murderer, and Henry was not released from the Bonds of the Flesh, so he can't pull a Walter.

People are dying because God is summoned. These people only die in the ending where Walter wins.

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I think it's simple that it couldn't be more simple: in the bad ending, when let's say Alessa's domination ends, he's out of her world; and he then sees/remembers things the way they are- killing a woman, a man and a receptionist. That's why he understands that he's the butcher. Therefore we know that the butcher was there not to represent guilt for killing monsters that never existed or for slashing some illusions, but for killing real persons. And I doubt he was a serial killer before he came to town, or that the voices of people he heard were representing persons he killed before the game started.


Travis was not in the real world, so he couldn't of been killing real people; if he had been such a mass murderer, it would've been mentioned in a later game or something; Silent Hill's timeline has a good track record of who dies and goes missing and such.

That, and it doesn't explain the "I'm not your mama" line, or why he's still in the Otherworld in the bad ending, meaning he never left. Travis didn't kill people, pure and simple.

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In other words, all monsters of the same species have to represent or a human or an illusion. So all scrapers in SH3 have to be human? But now that you made me think about it... . you invent an illusion monster.. you get so obsessed about it, you become mad, the next thing happens when you're in your own world and you see a person that's tryin' to snap you out of it or whatever.. you could see the person as the illusion monster..


Except that never happens in Silent Hill, ever. The protagonists of Silent Hill aren't hallucinating, they're in another dimension that makes their thoughts real. If a monster is different from another monster, they look different. Therefore, there is no species of monsters that are sometimes human, sometimes manifestations.

And yes, the Scrapers are all humans. They are willing cultists that Claudia made look like monsters using her psychic powers. They attack Heather to goad her into killing them, sacrificing their lives for the birth of God.

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sorry, .. on what were you refering to?


At the police station shortly after meeting Elle, you find a car that crashed and ran over a dog monster. Other people are killing and fighting the monsters besides Alex.

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I don't remember her saying that.. I remember some vanishing wet floor, etc.. gotta pass it again.


Dude, she comes out of the basement, wet, carrying a gun. when Alex inquires about the thumping noise in the basement, she says "In the basement..."

Lillian encountered or is aware of the monster down there.

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THE boss monster. Of course they did, 'cause it's their own personal monsters.. but I doubt they could see a Schism or Smog (regardless the thing Alex can see their's, but that's a different matter)


Why can Alex see their monsters but they can't see his? Why can't they, when they're at the center of everything, and yet Elle and Wheeler, who are complete nobodies with no relevance to anything, experience all the monsters, including boss monsters?

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About people seeing monsters in Homecoming.. I was always sospicious about it.. about Wheeler, Elle and Alex. They're the only positive and active characters in the game.. and they see the same monsters no matter what. Then I became more concearned when I read their diaries.. diaries of three persons -- Elle, Alex and Wheeler.. exactly of those who see the same monsters. Since we are playing through Alex.. we know that he never was in the army.. so the diary part about it is BS. And what about their too? The way deputy is all paranoid and Elle is.. well she's just freaky. We get inside their mind and see and learn things about them that we didn't in the game. Do they have some holes in their diaries too?


No, they don't. They're totally sane.

Also, I'm pretty sure the diaries aren't canon, since they introduce plot holes and don't seem like they were collaborated with the game writers, but even if they ARE, So what? Wheeler is suspicious about some dark secret in the town (she's right) and Elle is mad at Alex for leaving without saying goodbye (she didn't know he was sent off against his will) and is trying to find everyone who's gone missing, including her sister (perfectly natural).

Those two are sane; they're just caught up in a larger situation. When the Otherworld came to Shepherd's Glenn, it took everyone in town into it, not just the parents and such.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
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AuraTwilight wrote:
it would've been mentioned in a later game or something

Why would it be? Was it mentioned what happened to James, or Henry?

AuraTwilight wrote:
That, and it doesn't explain the "I'm not your mama" line, or why he's still in the Otherworld in the bad ending, meaning he never left. Travis didn't kill people, pure and simple.

The Otherworld doesn' negate the real one. In the bad ending, while he's still in the otherworld, he gets a flash of the real world, of what he did. He gets a small doze of reality, so he gets sick about it, and continues living his world.

AuraTwilight wrote:
At the police station shortly after meeting Elle, you find a car that crashed and ran over a dog monster. Other people are killing and fighting the monsters besides Alex.

That is perfectly normal for SH, it doesn't mean people were actually fighting them.. this is SH not Star Wars.

AuraTwilight wrote:
Therefore, there is no species of monsters that are sometimes human, sometimes manifestations.

AuraTwilight wrote:
the Scrapers are all humans

You just said they are. ?

AuraTwilight wrote:
protagonists of Silent Hill aren't hallucinating, they're in another dimension

And what is hallucination other than being in a different dimension?

AuraTwilight wrote:
No, they don't. They're totally sane.

Let's ay you're a different character, and you meet Alex, a poor army men lookin' for his brother, he would also seem totally sane. So it's not valid evidence.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Why would it be? Was it mentioned what happened to James, or Henry?


You're the one suggesting that a trucker ran around town killing quite possibly dozens of people. James and Henry never went on huge killing sprees in Silent Hill.

Quote:
The Otherworld doesn' negate the real one. In the bad ending, while he's still in the otherworld, he gets a flash of the real world, of what he did. He gets a small doze of reality, so he gets sick about it, and continues living his world.


Not really. He just gets flashes of images and voices. That doesn't necessarily say "real world" any more than it says "Otherworld".

Quote:
That is perfectly normal for SH, it doesn't mean people were actually fighting them.. this is SH not Star Wars.


The car lights are on. The car was clearly operational, and we know everyone Alex meets is in the Otherworld. There's a difference between "abandoned car" or "a corpse" and "a clearly operational car that is still on that was crashed into a freshly killed dog."

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You just said they are. ?


English fail. Reread those two statements you quoted. What I am saying is that ALL Scrapers are humans, and there is NO species of monsters that are sometimes human, sometimes not (There are no cases where only SOME of the...Lying Figures, for example, are monsters and the others are humans).

Quote:
And what is hallucination other than being in a different dimension?


Are you seriously asking this? Is English not your first language? I honestly don't know.

Hallucinating is not a supernatural experience; it's when a person, otherwise existing in the real world, experiences false sensory information and delusions.

Being in another dimension is when you physically vanish from one universe and enter a different universe.

Quote:
Let's ay you're a different character, and you meet Alex, a poor army men lookin' for his brother, he would also seem totally sane. So it's not valid evidence.


That's a bullshit excuse and you know it. We're not characters, we're players, and while we're not given the facts all the time, we're atleast given clues. There is absolutely nothing, whatsoever, implying at all, that anything is wrong with Wheeler or Elle. It would have come up at the very least in a memo. Otherwise you're pulling speculation entirely out of your behind.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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AuraTwilight wrote:
You're the one suggesting that a trucker ran around town killing quite possibly dozens of people. James and Henry never went on huge killing sprees in Silent Hill.

I thought we were just talking about mentioning characters in sequels.. But, ok.. bad example.. SH3- Heather- she kills cultists (Scrapers, missionary), is it mentioned anywhere she did it, memos or such, like you said. ?
Not.

AuraTwilight wrote:
Not really. He just gets flashes of images and voices. That doesn't necessarily say "real world" any more than it says "Otherworld".

But it's another point of view of the same angle.. it can be connected with what really happened: "I'm not you're momma, please ..no!"- You did fight with your mother regardless the real world or not. "sir..motel' s closed for the season.. "- Travis was at the motel. "Please.. come to daddy's"- same explanation as for the first line. So if it's the same thing from another point of view; in other words: in the Otherworld you see things similiar to what happened in it.. what is it then if not reality?

AuraTwilight wrote:
The car lights are on. The car was clearly operational, and we know everyone Alex meets is in the Otherworld. There's a difference between "abandoned car" or "a corpse" and "a clearly operational car that is still on that was crashed into a freshly killed dog."

I still don't see it. "clear operational car", "fresh corpse".. I don't understand how or why you distinguish it from everything else in SH.

AuraTwilight wrote:
Reread those two statements you quoted. What I am saying is that ALL Scrapers are humans, and there is NO species of monsters that are sometimes human, sometimes not

You meant within the species..

AuraTwilight wrote:
Hallucinating is not a supernatural experience; it's when a person, otherwise existing in the real world, experiences false sensory information and delusions.

Ooh.. you meant literally the "other dimension" ..in the context of supernatural. I see.

AuraTwilight wrote:
That's a bullshit excuse and you know it. We're not characters, we're players, and while we're not given the facts all the time, we're atleast given clues. There is absolutely nothing, whatsoever, implying at all, that anything is wrong with Wheeler or Elle. It would have come up at the very least in a memo. Otherwise you're pulling speculation entirely out of your behind.

Hey.. it is no excuse.. And when you play SH you ARE the CHARACTER. It's why SH is so special about it. You don't see anything else except what the protagonist sees. And not always clues are given, I don't know why you think they are, many things are not explained, hell.. thousands of things are not explained, that's why this forum exists, if for everything was given a clue, then there would be no mistery.. and no theories.. So for every theroy you don't agree with you are going to say.. "there are no clues, it's pulled out of your ass".

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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I thought we were just talking about mentioning characters in sequels.. But, ok.. bad example.. SH3- Heather- she kills cultists (Scrapers, missionary), is it mentioned anywhere she did it, memos or such, like you said. ?
Not.


But, again, those people are in the Otherworld, and the Order is a very secretive group that is prone to covering up their own activities. That's still not comparable to Travis going on a killing spree, killing people who otherwise are totally innocent and normal, which the Order wouldn't move to cover up since Travis isn't someone they care about.

Quote:
But it's another point of view of the same angle.. it can be connected with what really happened: "I'm not you're momma, please ..no!"- You did fight with your mother regardless the real world or not. "sir..motel' s closed for the season.. "- Travis was at the motel. "Please.. come to daddy's"- same explanation as for the first line. So if it's the same thing from another point of view; in other words: in the Otherworld you see things similiar to what happened in it.. what is it then if not reality?


It could be loads of things. I really do recommend you read the thread I brought up, or this conversation tangent isn't going anywhere.

Quote:
I still don't see it. "clear operational car", "fresh corpse".. I don't understand how or why you distinguish it from everything else in SH.


Because our attention is brought to it apart from other things, and Alex comments on it, saying that "I guess I'm not the only one who hates these things." It's complete incongruous to doubt him and we have no reason to do so. Everyone else is in the same boat Alex is, why WOULDNT they fight monsters?

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Hey.. it is no excuse.. And when you play SH you ARE the CHARACTER. It's why SH is so special about it. You don't see anything else except what the protagonist sees.


This isn't exactly true.

Quote:
And not always clues are given, I don't know why you think they are, many things are not explained, hell.. thousands of things are not explained, that's why this forum exists, if for everything was given a clue, then there would be no mistery.. and no theories.. So for every theroy you don't agree with you are going to say.. "there are no clues, it's pulled out of your ass".


No, clues and subtle nods are given for everything. We are not given straight, spoonfed answers, but every theory taken seriously on this forum has some evidence, some clue, some in-game context that leads credit to the idea. No one worth their salt just makes things up because that's not constructing a theory, that's just fanfiction.

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Brookhaven Receptionist
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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when you encounter the order miners in the game i was under the impression that it was relevant to the story and that is why they were there. Kind of like how the other world is the collective representation of everyone left in the town. So if all of these people were in the town and most of them part or becoming a part of the order would be around.

Now yes i other silent hill games having a gathering of other people in the game would feel disjointed. But i feel that them being in homecoming was completely part of the story in this particular game.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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AuraTwilight wrote:
...which the Order wouldn't move to cover up since Travis isn't someone they care about.

Maybe in the beginning, when they had no clue about who the hell he is ..But I wouldn't say Travis is not important to them.. he is the one that ruins their plan.. he is dragged all around SH due to Alessa's mediation to set her free... so I don't think he's not relevant.
AuraTwilight wrote:
Alex comments on it, saying that "I guess I'm not the only one who hates these things."

And how is that relevant? He also sais he's a soldier.. so it means it's true?
Not.
AuraTwilight wrote:
why WOULDNT they fight monsters?
Don't know what you meant with that..
AuraTwilight wrote:
This isn't exactly true.
And what is true to you? .
AuraTwilight wrote:
It's complete incongruous to doubt him and we have no reason to do so.
It's not.because.. (read down)
mikefile wrote:
No, clues and subtle nods are given for everything. We are not given straight, spoonfed answers, but every theory taken seriously on this forum has some evidence, some clue, some in-game context that leads credit to the idea. No one worth their salt just makes things up because that's not constructing a theory, that's just fanfiction.
You wan't a fact?... If you observe closely you will see that Elle and Wheeler are the only, let's say..active/positive characters in the game that are trying to help Alex.. And they see the same monsters as Alex does.. and most monsters are bounded to the inner world of Alex.. So you say they're totally sane..? And considering a bit outer fact: the diaries- you will see that Alex's one is not true.. The other diaries are written in a similiar way, describing doubts of this golomy world, loneliness, feelings, etc.. So then, Alex is nuts, but those two aren't. ?

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Maybe in the beginning, when they had no clue about who the hell he is ..But I wouldn't say Travis is not important to them.. he is the one that ruins their plan.. he is dragged all around SH due to Alessa's mediation to set her free... so I don't think he's not relevant.


That's not what I'm talking about. What I mean is, why would the Order try and cover up Travis' actions? He's not someone they'd want to protect, like Kauffman or whatever, so there's no need to attempt a coverup of a serial killing spree (which I'm not sure they could do anyway). The simple fact of the matter is that if Travis was a serial killer, we would know it.

Quote:
And how is that relevant? He also sais he's a soldier.. so it means it's true?
Not.


One is a delusion, the other is a direct observation made on the actions of someone else. They're not comparable.

Quote:
Don't know what you meant with that..


Alex, Wheeler, Elle, the parents, and the Order members (which are recruited townspeople of Shepherd's Glenn) ALL see monsters, many of them in cutscenes we witness. Why would only some people see them if everyone is experiencing the same hell? There is no reason for it, and it makes sense for everyone to be seeing the same monsters, since it's a communal sort of Otherworld that pulled in the town due to a mass collective belief of how screwed they were (else people like Wheeler and Elle wouldn't be there).

Quote:
And what is true to you? .


Well, for starters, things that are supported by what the game says. We are not the character, because we do not share their mental problems and have the dramatic irony of seeing beyond their psychosis, and we can see events outside of their point of view, such as the various cutscenes with Vincent, Douglas, and Claudia confronting each other, which Heather isn't there to witness.

Quote:
You wan't a fact?... If you observe closely you will see that Elle and Wheeler are the only, let's say..active/positive characters in the game that are trying to help Alex.. And they see the same monsters as Alex does.. and most monsters are bounded to the inner world of Alex.. So you say they're totally sane..? And considering a bit outer fact: the diaries- you will see that Alex's one is not true.. The other diaries are written in a similiar way, describing doubts of this golomy world, loneliness, feelings, etc.. So then, Alex is nuts, but those two aren't. ?


Except these monsters AREN'T bounded to the inner world of Alex. The fact that Wheeler and Elle sees the same monsters as he does is proof of that whether or not they're sane or insane, as SH2 demonstrates that two crazy people see the same monster as two different forms. Their seeing monsters only proves that this is a scenario like SH1, where everyone is seeing the same stuff.

The diaries also don't mean jack shit, since they're not canonical and have factual inaccuracies that come from being released mid-development.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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