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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 30 Nov 2009
Notes left: 233
I tried to follow this argument, but about halfway through, I got lost and realized I didn't have enough breadcrumbs to get home. So, what's the issue here? mikefile doesn't believe that Otherworld is communal? um, okay, then explain Wheeler killing Schisms and Needlers and being kidnapped and buttraped by Asphyxia. Explain any of the town fathers being killed by the bosses. Explain Elle cowering in fear every time you encounter a Needler or a Lurker down in the sewers. Explain Pyramid Head killing Adam. Please.

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"Remember how people look in "The Ring" after Samara gets 'em? SH2 does something similar, only you get fat, sweaty and belligerent." - pianotheme @ livejournal


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Brookhaven Receptionist
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 26 Mar 2008
Notes left: 978
Last seen at: texas
you put it quite nicely Sirea

also i liked that the otherworld was communal (as it needed to be based on the story and the collective feeling of being in hell by those that remained in the town)it gave it a different flavor and worked well imho

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 549
Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
Sirea wrote:
So, what's the issue here? mikefile doesn't believe that Otherworld is communal

Communal in what measures? Communal in the way all Shepherd's Glenn being invaded or communal just the three characters + the parents.. I'm gonna try to answer your questions with everything being written down.....ok?

AuraTwilight wrote:
That's not what I'm talking about. What I mean is, why would the Order try and cover up Travis' actions? He's not someone they'd want to protect, like Kauffman or whatever, so there's no need to attempt a coverup of a serial killing spree

Partially agreed.. they wouldn't cover it because it would unecessary.. a wacko going around town slashing people.. there's no use for it. But if they could and did it, it wouldn't be to protect Travis. There is no reason to protect Travis.. he is theirs opponent.

AuraTwilight wrote:
One is a delusion, the other is a direct observation made on the actions of someone else. They're not comparable.

Proof?

AuraTwilight wrote:
Alex, Wheeler, Elle, the parents, and the Order members (which are recruited townspeople of Shepherd's Glenn) ALL see monsters, many of them in cutscenes we witness. Why would only some people see them if everyone is experiencing the same hell?

Let's analyze this ALL:
Alex, Elle, Wheeler.. I already said what I think about them.. + the parents (and they see their' own hell.. their children, which is logic.. 'cause they're responsible).. And the Order doesn't see monsters anywhere.. just that cutscene before the Hell-house.. and that's not comparable. Just.. to straighten things out.. except for these characters.. have U got anyone else in mind? Because from what I understood.. you are implying that all of the inhabitants of Sheppherd's Glenn see them? I understand that metaforically the whole town had been envaded by the Otherworld like when God threw a curse because of Cain killing Abel.. but not literally..

AuraTwilight wrote:
Well, for starters, things that are supported by what the game says. We are not the character, because we do not share their mental problems and have the dramatic irony of seeing beyond their psychosis, and we can see events outside of their point of view, such as the various cutscenes with Vincent, Douglas, and Claudia confronting each other, which Heather isn't there to witness.

Yes we do have the dramatic irony.. but still, that doesn't prove the fact that we have the inevitable experience like the character.. and the games are shaped in accordance to our actions.. And about the outside point of view, there is no other proof that may suggest otherwise.. if yes, please, enlight me.
AuraTwilight wrote:
Except these monsters AREN'T bounded to the inner world of Alex.

Feral- Alex's dog, his father killed it it and skinned it.
Nurse- represents Alex's institutionalization in the hospital and his suppressed libido
Lurker- represents the restraint Alex felt throughout his life and the lack of love from his family
Smog- symbol of the smothering guilt that Alex suffers being on crooked feet as well as being curled up while staggering

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11307
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
I tried to follow this argument, but about halfway through, I got lost and realized I didn't have enough breadcrumbs to get home. So, what's the issue here? mikefile doesn't believe that Otherworld is communal? um, okay, then explain Wheeler killing Schisms and Needlers and being kidnapped and buttraped by Asphyxia. Explain any of the town fathers being killed by the bosses. Explain Elle cowering in fear every time you encounter a Needler or a Lurker down in the sewers. Explain Pyramid Head killing Adam. Please.


His argument is basically that Wheeler and Elle are also insane and delusional, and the game just never tells us or hints this.

Quote:
Communal in what measures? Communal in the way all Shepherd's Glenn being invaded or communal just the three characters + the parents.. I'm gonna try to answer your questions with everything being written down.....ok?


The generally accepted consensus is that every character in Homecoming is experiencing the same type of Otherworld, since Judge Holloway was able to get everyone to follow her cult and convert to try and get God's mercy and escape this hell they were put in. This doesn't work if only Alex, the parents, Wheeler, and Elle are the only ones seeing weird shit.

Quote:
Partially agreed.. they wouldn't cover it because it would unecessary.. a wacko going around town slashing people.. there's no use for it. But if they could and did it, it wouldn't be to protect Travis. There is no reason to protect Travis.. he is theirs opponent.


Right, so why cover it up? It doesn't benefit them at all.

Quote:
Proof?


I don't need proof for a direct observation the game makes. You might as well be asking proof for the statement, "There is a difference between James thinking Mary is still alive and James yelling at Eddie for eating pizza."

You're just being contrarian, and have literally nothing to back your side or your arguments. They're not even coherent.

Quote:
Let's analyze this ALL:
Alex, Elle, Wheeler.. I already said what I think about them.. + the parents (and they see their' own hell.. their children, which is logic.. 'cause they're responsible).. And the Order doesn't see monsters anywhere.. just that cutscene before the Hell-house.. and that's not comparable. Just.. to straighten things out.. except for these characters.. have U got anyone else in mind? Because from what I understood.. you are implying that all of the inhabitants of Sheppherd's Glenn see them? I understand that metaforically the whole town had been envaded by the Otherworld like when God threw a curse because of Cain killing Abel.. but not literally..


Everyone in town sees that the roads are broken, that the clocks are stuck, that the town is nearly empty, that people are going missing....why in the fuck wouldn't they see the monsters? They literally experience every single other supernatural phenomena Alex is experiencing. Every single goddamn fucking one. As you point out in your thread, other characters even experience Otherworld shifts. Why wouldn't they see monsters as well?

And, again, it's hard to convince people they're in hell and make them do what you say with just fog and broken clocks. If they're not experiencing monsters, Judge Holloway's charisma is absolutely hollow.

Quote:
Yes we do have the dramatic irony.. but still, that doesn't prove the fact that we have the inevitable experience like the character.. and the games are shaped in accordance to our actions.. And about the outside point of view, there is no other proof that may suggest otherwise.. if yes, please, enlight me.


I've already given you direct proof. Just because you don't accept it doesn't mean it isn't evidence; the games show us things the protagonists don't know, this isn't new. This isn't revolutionary. This isn't a big secret. As players, we know things Alex does not and can see outside of his point of view.

Quote:
Feral- Alex's dog, his father killed it it and skinned it.
Nurse- represents Alex's institutionalization in the hospital and his suppressed libido
Lurker- represents the restraint Alex felt throughout his life and the lack of love from his family
Smog- symbol of the smothering guilt that Alex suffers being on crooked feet as well as being curled up while staggering


Being symbolized from Alex's psyche is not the same to being bound only to his inner world and experiences. Even you admit that Wheeler and Elle can see the monsters. This is a situation like in SH1, SH3, and SH4 where multiple characters are experiencing the same Otherworld. Why are you so adamantly unable to accept this? You haven't even provided an alternate hypothesis to explain anything.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Feb 2009
Notes left: 7227
Quote:
I tried to follow this argument, but about halfway through, I got lost and realized I didn't have enough breadcrumbs to get home.

The same thing happened with me. More or less.

I don't know how Aura/mike can tolerate this with such patience. . . If tons of these questions were addressed to me I know I'd yell "Fuck off!" or something like this to everyone. . .


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Brookhaven Receptionist
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 26 Mar 2008
Notes left: 978
Last seen at: texas
yes i wonder how long their argument will go on
whether or not it will continue

anyway i also feel that enough has been said for this topic

whether or not the order members are accepted is really up to each person

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11307
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
I'm having fun, though. :3 And it seems Mike is, too.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 549
Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
Well, I thought this was an open discussion topic. And nothing really makes me mad or goes on my nerves. Honestly, I didn't feel any kind of need to yell at anyone :" Fuck off ", just because I don't completely agree with his/her opinion, and I don't believe that Aura did (at least I think so? ). Furthermore it really didn't seem to me as a big deal argument, more as a slightly proceeding discussion. But if it was too tiresome, extended, over-analyzed or whatever.. I am stopping immediately.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Feb 2009
Notes left: 7227
Why people takes things way too seriously?
If you want to continue the discussion then that's your problem and not mine, mike. I mean, Aura was liking it and so was you, so why stop the whole thing because of a few opinions? Do what you want. ;)


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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Miners Are People, Too (Spoilers?)
     
         
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Missing since: 02 Jan 2010
Notes left: 1725
Last seen at: Canadiania
mikefile wrote:
But if it was too tiresome, extended, over-analyzed or whatever.. I am stopping immediately.
Don't stop now; it was interesting. And if you haven't noticed, 90 percent of the discussions here fit that description.

Go on. I demand it.


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