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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Because Dahlia is just a trolling bitch and didn't actually expect Walter to attempt to create God or any such thing. Dahlia 100% expected to succeed with her original plan, and thus had no backups planned. She's an insane fundamentalist who thinks her actions are divine and righteous and guaranteed to pass.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19401
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>Don't get it. How am I wrong?<
Dahlia had nothing to do with the Sect of the Holy Mother, to which Walter belonged, the opposing sect of Dahlia's own Sect of the Holy Woman. Because she belonged to the same group, the Order, she knew what the opponents were planning—that is, Walter—and went to sabotage it.

Walter is everything a back-up plan is not.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 25 Jul 2011
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Well, I certainly see no connection between SH4 and SH2. All I'm saying is that the events of SH2, SH4, and SH5 could happen and have no impact whatsoever on the actual canon story of SH1 and SH3. They're more or less just filler content, -an excuse to make a game. Even if the games are damned good.

But I honestly don't know half the stuff you guys do, I'm just tossing my thoughts out there.

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 23 Apr 2011
Notes left: 252
Last seen at: The bottom of a bottle
The Adversary wrote:
>Don't get it. How am I wrong?<
Dahlia had nothing to do with the Sect of the Holy Mother, to which Walter belonged, the opposing sect of Dahlia's own Sect of the Holy Woman. Because she belonged to the same group, the Order, she knew what the opponents were planning—that is, Walter—and went to sabotage it.

Walter is everything a back-up plan is not.

How did she sabotage the plan? By convincing Walter that the room was a womb?

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 27 Jan 2008
Notes left: 232
NanayaShiki wrote:
The Adversary wrote:
People have suggested this before, but I just don't get it. The maps have never been suspect before so I just don't believe they suddenly would be to explain away one game's gross inconsistencies.

No, it hasn't happened before. And before SH2 the town never called to people with guilt. Before SH3 no area outside of SH could be affected in the same way. I'm not saying it's the best idea to think they intended for the map to be questionable, but I don't see why the idea should be completely ruled out either.

I personally really like the idea that we will never truly know the extents of what can happen in Silent Hill. Once you get comfortable it stops being as interesting as it used to be. Simply because we never had reason to suspect that maps could be altered to the person looking at it doesn't mean we can't consider it now. Maybe the map that Alex looked at wasn't even physically real.

xoxsnoof wrote:
Even Homecoming tries to tie itself into SH1 as vaguely as possible (with Wheeler mentioning Cybil) but it just... doesn't work.


How doesn't it work? Homecoming doesn't really contradict anything. It brings up some new things that don't really need to be there, but none of it is impossible within the original canon. SH2, SH3, and SH4 also all brought in new things and SH2 and 4 only casually vaguely referenced past events. It's really no different. There only real reason I can think of for someone wanting to think it is in a different canon is "I don't like it", so when people say that ISN'T their reason, I get a bit confused.

I never really saw all that much reason to care anyway, though, so long as the game isn't beating established canon to death and laughing at us as it does it, does it really matter if not every single detail lines up 100%? I never really considered it too big a deal in Silent Hill myself. Sure, I get annoyed at the way characters and events are portrayed in Origins and the way Pyramid Head was used after 2 and all that, and that ties into canon issues. But in a series with multiple endings where a decent amount of information is left intentionally vague and up to interpretation, I think it's best not to get too "set in stone" picky to the point where if there is one mild inconsistency suddenly the game must be reasoned into being a separate canon.



Nice post, I definitely agree with what you're saying.

I would think you could also argue, depending on the ending you believe to be true, that the town and map aren't the same as past games because it is merely a haunting (premonition type of) dream for Alex. Most dreams are jumpy and locations will not be exact.
Also, other than when his dad brings him to the mental institute, Alex has never actually gone to Silent Hill before. Maybe he's heard of certain places and stores located in Silent Hill (as well as some of the town's history and stories with past characters) but he's not going to know exact locations especially for them to appear as so in the dream.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 25 Jul 2011
Notes left: 37
Last seen at: Rural Alabama
^ Actually a very good point. And the fact that the whole game pretty muich never happened justifies anything, really.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 565
Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
The Adversary wrote:
>Don't get it. How am I wrong?<
Dahlia had nothing to do with the Sect of the Holy Mother, to which Walter belonged, the opposing sect of Dahlia's own Sect of the Holy Woman. Because she belonged to the same group, the Order, she knew what the opponents were planning—that is, Walter—and went to sabotage it.

Oh, thanks for clearing that up for me. I was always a bit suspicous- why would Dahlia go helping the opposite sect. However, Claudia's still the backup plan?

SilentRobert23 wrote:
How did she sabotage the plan? By convincing Walter that the room was a womb?

It was never expected for lil' Wally to go down that road (Room 302). They brainwashed him. He learnt about God. Jimmy snuck Valtiel in his subconscious- Everything was going perfect until Dahlia came to visit and told him that Room 302 is his momma. She simply used the loss of his mommy and told him that all he had to do is follow the instructions of the manual called "Holy Scriptures" and that his mommy would wake up. Walter then wanted to create his own personal paradise and he got screwed. The same thing screwed Claudia, too. She also subconsciously wanted to create a personal paradise due to the pain and suffering of her father's abuse.


However, there are a few things I'm not sure about:
Why the hell did the Wish House workers let her go there?
The Holy Scriptures belong to what sect exactly?

(And yes, I know I'm going a bit off-topic)

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
Oh, thanks for clearing that up for me. I was always a bit suspicous- why would Dahlia go helping the opposite sect. However, Claudia's still the backup plan?


Dahlia doesn't even seem to act like Claudia exists. Claudia did everything on her own without being coerced by anyone; she is no one's backup plan because Dahlia didn't even consider the idea that she could fail.

Claudia received a psychic vision of the events of SH1 and decided to finish what Dahlia finished.

Quote:
Everything was going perfect until Dahlia came to visit and told him that Room 302 is his momma.


Also he kind of flipped out and killed all the cult leaders and social workers who abused him and shit.

Quote:
Why the hell did the Wish House workers let her go there?
The Holy Scriptures belong to what sect exactly?


It's an ORPHANAGE. It's not like she needs a fucking pass to get inside, and the Holy Scriptures belong to the Sect of the Holy Mother.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 565
Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
Jees. How did I miss that. I could have sworn that I've read a thousand of times something like: in case Alessa failed.. this and that.
AuraTwilight wrote:
Claudia did everything on her own without being coerced by anyone
Yes, but what about the cult members, like the one that killed Harry?
AuraTwilight wrote:
she is no one's backup plan because Dahlia didn't even consider the idea that she could fail.
Who is then the "crazy old hag" Vincent talked about?
AuraTwilight wrote:
It's an ORPHANAGE. It's not like she needs a fucking pass to get inside
Yeah, but there was written on the stone that some important people came to visit. Which means the Holy Mother members let the Holy Ladies members in and said that they were important persons. Plus, they let them talk to the kid that supposed to bring od...
The Chelsea team said that the Liverpool players are important people... ?

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RESPECT
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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>I could have sworn that I've read a thousand of times something like: in case Alessa failed.. this and that.<
It's fairly common because so many people have perpetuated this misinformation.

>there was written on the stone that some important people came to visit.<
This was a diary entry from Walter, who was undoubtedly told by Dahlia, "Hi, I'm a very important person."

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
Yes, but what about the cult members, like the one that killed Harry?


They followed Claudia.

Quote:
Who is then the "crazy old hag" Vincent talked about?


Dahlia. But so what? Claudia is her daughter's best friend. Dahlia didn't need to specifically instruct Claudia in order for her to be inspired by her ideals. Claudia could have listened to her in church, or Alessa told her things about what Dahlia taught her or told her, or what have you.

Hell, Claudia's ideals don't even match up with Dahlia's in the end anyway, and she certainly doesn't give a shit what her father thinks. It's pretty clear that Claudia's philosophy is self-formed.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
Notes left: 565
Last seen at: Nathan Ave.
^ Ok. But still. Vincent specifically drew Heather's attention by telling her that she was totally brainwashed by Dahlia. I'm not convinced that brainwashing is referred to listen to Dahlia, nor just talking with her daughter about it, neverless the difference between Claudia's self-righteous "salvation" ideal and Dahlia's omnipotent destruction concepts.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Vincent's also a lying piece of shit.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
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LOL. Yeah, that solves it. I'm just going to take that as a: Let it go.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Not really that so much as "Vincent will do anything to encourage Claudia and Heather to kill each other and in their first meeting he can't ascertain how much Heather remembers being Alessa and is trying to weaponize her anguished and conflicted feelings with her asshole mom."

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]

Missing since: 16 Aug 2011
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All of the major games are in the same canon. Deal with it.

EDIT: Except Shattered Memories, of course.

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Hope House Careworker
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 06 Nov 2010
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^ Don't just say it. Prove it.

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I love the Silent Hill Series. The games: Homecoming, Origins, and Shattered Memories, did nothing wrong whatsoever, they were developed well, and did things different. Just because they were not by Team Silent doesn't mean that they're bad games. I believe in this series. I believe that one day, we can have a game that will make all Silent Hill fans Happy. I believe that Silent Hill Downpour can achieve this.
Team Silent may be gone, but their series isn't. Instead... it's here, it's alive.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 27 Jul 2009
Notes left: 3534
Asphyxia606 wrote:
All of the major games are in the same canon. Deal with it.

EDIT: Except Shattered Memories, of course.


Depends on your perspective.

Of course, though all the main games were written to be in the main canon, (except SM of course), it's a well-known fact that fans from any media series will automatically "ban" whatever it is that does not fit their perfect version of the series canon. That being said, Origins, Homecoming, etc., all have a bunch of plot holes but that does not make them "excluded" from Silent Hill's timeline. Just because different writers were there does not make it that it shouldn't fit in to the main series, much like how Tale's of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World's writer was Masaki Hiramatsu, while the original ToS writer was Takumi Miyajima. Where there different writers for both games? Yes. Was the majority of the developers different for both games? Yes. Does that make it in a separate canon? No. Granted, the plotholes in the SH games make sort of an "easy" way to immediately call out "Not canon!", but to me, it really depends on how you view things.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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That being said, if plot holes aren't grounds to call something as non-canon without needing a developer to explicitly say so, WHAT IS?

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
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Last seen at: In the anals of forum history
I would not exclude anything from canon unless it is either specified, by its creators, to exist outside of canon, or if the plot holes are so ridiculous that it causes huge chunks of the game, to directly contradict other games, or even the game itself (hi, Good+ ending!)

Minor plot holes or inconsistencies I can live with as long as the damage isn't that important. An example being the argument over whether or not Origins is canon because of where Alessa's body was located in her house when it was burning. I don't even much care that Alessa was supposed to have made the [otherside] appear during the first game. Maybe she got the idea of duality from Travis and turned it up to 11 during the first game, making it a semi-permanent feature of the unreality landscape. Okay, I don't care about anything Origins had to say because the game didn't really add anything to the meta-narrative, so who cares.

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