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 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
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Last seen at: In the anals of forum history
I would not exclude anything from canon unless it is either specified, by its creators, to exist outside of canon, or if the plot holes are so ridiculous that it causes huge chunks of the game, to directly contradict other games, or even the game itself (hi, Good+ ending!)

Minor plot holes or inconsistencies I can live with as long as the damage isn't that important. An example being the argument over whether or not Origins is canon because of where Alessa's body was located in her house when it was burning. I don't even much care that Alessa was supposed to have made the [otherside] appear during the first game. Maybe she got the idea of duality from Travis and turned it up to 11 during the first game, making it a semi-permanent feature of the unreality landscape. Okay, I don't care about anything Origins had to say because the game didn't really add anything to the meta-narrative, so who cares.

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 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
Notes left: 11052
Last seen at: In the anals of forum history
I would not exclude anything from canon unless it is either specified, by its creators, to exist outside of canon, or if the plot holes are so ridiculous that it causes huge chunks of the game, to directly contradict other games, or even the game itself (hi, Good+ ending!)

Minor plot holes or inconsistencies I can live with as long as the damage isn't that important. An example being the argument over whether or not Origins is canon because of where Alessa's body was located in her house when it was burning. I don't even much care that Alessa was supposed to have made the [otherside] appear during the first game. Maybe she got the idea of duality from Travis and turned it up to 11 during the first game, making it a semi-permanent feature of the unreality landscape. Okay, I don't care about anything Origins had to say because the game didn't really add anything to the meta-narrative, so who cares.

My post was so awesome, the board decided you needed to see it three times. It's all about the journey, motherfuckers.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 05 Aug 2010
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When you make a canon series for 10 yrs you'll sure get some minor screw-ups.

And about the Alessa's body thing, there is a theory that suggests that the body in the house belonged to another girl, probably a rejected vessel.

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 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
Notes left: 11052
Last seen at: In the anals of forum history
I really hate that theory. It's a ridiculously complex way to make up for an inconsistency which doesn't really need to be resolved, as it is only a background detail with no relevant effect on the story. It is the equivalent of Hope House being renamed Wish House. Best to just let it go.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Jun 2009
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Well, we know now that Downpour is retconning the location of Overlook Penitentiary. Since this has bearing on the thread's topic, what does everyone think of this? Personally, I think the events of Homecoming still happened, just not the way we saw it happen in game.

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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1626
KiramidHead wrote:
Well, we know now that Downpour is retconning the location of Overlook Penitentiary. Since this has bearing on the thread's topic, what does everyone think of this? Personally, I think the events of Homecoming still happened, just not the way we saw it happen in game.

It's possible that the otherworld just distorted things, hence the Penitentiary's odd location in Homecoming. At least, that's what I'm going to assume unless given new information. :?


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 23 Dec 2009
Notes left: 207
Last seen at: Silent Hill.
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
KiramidHead wrote:
Well, we know now that Downpour is retconning the location of Overlook Penitentiary. Since this has bearing on the thread's topic, what does everyone think of this? Personally, I think the events of Homecoming still happened, just not the way we saw it happen in game.

It's possible that the otherworld just distorted things, hence the Penitentiary's odd location in Homecoming. At least, that's what I'm going to assume unless given new information. :?

The Overlook Penitentiary appears on a map of Silent Hill.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 08 Jun 2011
Notes left: 92
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Cyrus Hanley wrote:
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
KiramidHead wrote:
Well, we know now that Downpour is retconning the location of Overlook Penitentiary. Since this has bearing on the thread's topic, what does everyone think of this? Personally, I think the events of Homecoming still happened, just not the way we saw it happen in game.

It's possible that the otherworld just distorted things, hence the Penitentiary's odd location in Homecoming. At least, that's what I'm going to assume unless given new information. :?

The Overlook Penitentiary appears on a map of Silent Hill.


Maps can be extremely unreliable in Silent Hill. Remember how Silent Hill created Mary's letter, which later turns out to be a blank piece of paper? One could assume Silent Hill could have easily created another illusion for Alex.

(On another note, I think it's hilarious the map of South Vale notes a tiny strip club Heaven's Night, but fails to mention Brookhaven Hospital.... a HOSPITAL of all things. :roll:)

The most reasonable answer is that Homecoming's developers were being silly when they placed a prison full of criminals right beside a shopping district. I know it has brick walls around it, but still... you'd think that something like that would be further away from the town.


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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1626
Alex420 wrote:
Cyrus Hanley wrote:
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
It's possible that the otherworld just distorted things, hence the Penitentiary's odd location in Homecoming. At least, that's what I'm going to assume unless given new information. :?

The Overlook Penitentiary appears on a map of Silent Hill.


Maps can be extremely unreliable in Silent Hill. Remember how Silent Hill created Mary's letter, which later turns out to be a blank piece of paper? One could assume Silent Hill could have easily created another illusion for Alex.

This. It's possible that the map is unreliable. I'm still inclined to believe it was just the Otherworld distorting things unless we get a news article or other in-game mention that the town planners (or whomever is in charge of that sort of thing) decided to relocate the penitentiary to a more suitable area.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 23 Dec 2009
Notes left: 207
Last seen at: Silent Hill.
Alex420 wrote:
Cyrus Hanley wrote:
Soulless-Shadow wrote:
It's possible that the otherworld just distorted things, hence the Penitentiary's odd location in Homecoming. At least, that's what I'm going to assume unless given new information. :?

The Overlook Penitentiary appears on a map of Silent Hill.


Maps can be extremely unreliable in Silent Hill. Remember how Silent Hill created Mary's letter, which later turns out to be a blank piece of paper? One could assume Silent Hill could have easily created another illusion for Alex.

That has massive ramifications though. If one map of Silent Hill is considered to be fabricated, how many others could be too? Should we disregard all maps? Where do we draw the line?

Alex420 wrote:
(On another note, I think it's hilarious the map of South Vale notes a tiny strip club Heaven's Night, but fails to mention Brookhaven Hospital.... a HOSPITAL of all things. :roll:)

Huh. That's weird.

Alex420 wrote:
The most reasonable answer is that Homecoming's developers were being silly when they placed a prison full of criminals right beside a shopping district. I know it has brick walls around it, but still... you'd think that something like that would be further away from the town.

Yeah, that was a dumbass move. I don't even think they looked at the map from Origins, they just sort of extrapolated from the map in Silent Hill.

There are entire roads/streets missing and the shoreline of Toluca Lake has significantly receded inland.


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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]

Missing since: 20 Jun 2010
Notes left: 1626
Cyrus Hanley wrote:
That has massive ramifications though. If one map of Silent Hill is considered to be fabricated, how many others could be too? Should we disregard all maps? Where do we draw the line?

First up, I don't mean to be rude (and I'm sure I might come across as such in some parts, sorry. That's not my intention), but I'm too tired to get into a great big discussion on something as unimportant as a throwaway comment in a throwaway post which I wasn't really expecting a reply to in the first place (ie; my original comment), so I'll just cut to the chase as quickly as I am able (which, incidentally, isn't very quickly >_> ); if it's not stated in Downpour or other official material why the prison has been moved, then how do you address the inconsistency of the prison's location, and thus its location on the map? Unless it's stated in-game or some other official material that town planners moved the prison and updated the map, then why is the prison in a different place than it was in Homecoming? If it's not stated in-game or in official material, then I believe "the otherworld did it" is a possible explanation until we're given more information, even if we haven't seen anything similar to it before.
I'm not trying to dismiss your point about the reliability of the maps as I do understand your point. Personally I hope there's a good explanation for the move/inconsistency as I personally think "the otherworld did it" is just a simple explanation to cover someone's oversight. Personally I don't want to put it down to someone's fuck up as the whole new-game-hate thing is getting pretty boring and this would just add more fuel to the fan-boy/girl fire. Of course, if Homecoming and Downpour happen to be in separate canon, then there's no problem. :wink:

And thus I continue to use ridiculous amounts of words to say nothing at all. Yay me. ^_^


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Jun 2009
Notes left: 2884
Now that I've played Downpour, this issue is even more complicated.

[Reveal] Spoiler:
In the Centennial Building, there are several Homecoming references, most notably two paintings depicting the "Welcome to Shepherd's Glen" sign and Alex's house. There's also a book that mentions a Professor Horace Holloway who was impressed with the sacred nature of Silent Hill.


So right now, Homecoming is in a precarious place canonically. Elements of it are acknowledged, but others are changed, like Overlook.

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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 24 Nov 2011
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Well, you really can't remove Homecoming from the canon just because:
A. People don't like it.
or
B. It has story/town layout inconsistencies.

Storyline hiccups aren't anything new in the industry. SH2 has the infamous tunnel sign screwing up the distance of how close Old Silent Hill and Brahms are, and SH4 rewrites how Walter kills himself. Origins had some as well. O

The prison hiccup is just a map screwup on part of Double Helix plain and simple. It's a waste of time trying to come up with storyline reasons for where it was. It's just best to take it for what it was and move on. Nobody is ever perfect.

If you really want to search for a storyline reason maybe the town altered the layout for some weird, unexplained reason. But it's just going to open a barrel of questions that are never going to be answered.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
Well, you really can't remove Homecoming from the canon just because:
A. People don't like it.
or
B. It has story/town layout inconsistencies.


Sure you can. Tomm Hulett gave fans permission to construct their own personal canon, so.

Quote:
Storyline hiccups aren't anything new in the industry. SH2 has the infamous tunnel sign screwing up the distance of how close Old Silent Hill and Brahms are, and SH4 rewrites how Walter kills himself. Origins had some as well.


Typoes and retcons do not a plot hole make.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 18 Apr 2009
Notes left: 1399
Homecoming's aim is to be a sequel to whichever you choose. It can be Silent Hill 5, or it can be a videogame set after the Silent Hill movie. It's intentionally vague enough about the Order to allow this, and it includes nods to the previous games and the movie at the same time. Don't forget that Homecoming featured Travis, and Origins couldn't in any way tie in with the movie and, inconsistencies aside, could only possibly be considered a prequel to the game canon and not that of the movie or anything else. Homecoming tried to sort of bridge the gap by including things from both universes whilst being vague enough about them to let the player pick, based on which medium they joined the series via. Travis could easily be any random trucker, made to look like Travis as fanservice, and the gas-mask cult members could easily either only exist in the Shepherd's Glen branch of the Order or have been there unnoticed all along.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2006
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^ I doubt DH thought about anything that much. It all seems to be there because they thought it was cool in something else (Movie, previouse games, any other horror movie they seen). Copy & Paste.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 01 Jun 2009
Notes left: 2884
DistantJ wrote:
it can be a videogame set after the Silent Hill movie.


Ugh. I really wish people would stop saying this. There are plenty of references to past games in Homecoming, like the note that mentions Douglas. Taking a few aesthetic elements from the movie does not automatically connect the two together.

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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 24 Nov 2011
Notes left: 398
Quote:
Sure you can. Tomm Hulett gave fans permission to construct their own personal canon, so.


Yeah, you can. Doesn't mean it's always logically feasible to do so especially if the people in question are the type who scream non canon about certain things just because they don't like them.

Quote:
Typoes and retcons do not a plot hole make.

They can sometimes. In this instance, they don't really affect the overall stories. However, they're still inconsistencies and must be pointed out for those who bitch about the new games starting the trend of contradicting the plot and/or town layout of earlier entries.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 18 Apr 2009
Notes left: 1399
KiramidHead wrote:
DistantJ wrote:
it can be a videogame set after the Silent Hill movie.


Ugh. I really wish people would stop saying this. There are plenty of references to past games in Homecoming, like the note that mentions Douglas. Taking a few aesthetic elements from the movie does not automatically connect the two together.


You didn't read all of my post.

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Silent Hill Homecoming in a separate canon? [spoilers]
     
         
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Missing since: 23 Dec 2009
Notes left: 207
Last seen at: Silent Hill.
If a game retcons details of a previous game, the issues of "canonicity" don't lie with the retconned game but the game that retconned it.

In other words, if Alex did indeed reach the Overlook Penitentiary by boat (going by Tomm's word) then he did and all subsequent discrepancies caused by the retcon are Downpour's problem and not Homecoming's. Homecoming should not have to answer for inconsistencies that it did not make and neither should any other game in the series.

Otherwise, all the previous "inconsistencies" in the series would place the burden of whether or not the previous game is canon on the game in question, which is ludicrous. For example, parts of Origins contradict Silent Hill and these discrepancies have been made canon. However, the issues of canonicity created by these inconsistencies lie with Origins and not the original Silent Hill because the original Silent Hill did not create them.

Oh, and in this post I use "canon" as a synonym for "continuity" for ease of use and so that the sentences don't read awkwardly.


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