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Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
Poll ended at 11 May 2012
Yes. 50%  50%  [ 11 ]
No. 36%  36%  [ 8 ]
I don't know. 14%  14%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 22
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Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster from Pyramid Head within the Silent Hill canon?


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Historical Society Historian
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He kinda already is. I mean...Pyramid Head is Pyramid Head, and his only purpose is to make James remember his past and act upon his guild. Bogeyman is Bogey, and Bogeyman's purpose is the same, but only for Alex.

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I consider them both one entity. Many take the Bogeyman name to act as if it's the legitimate name of the creature when it just could be that PH is known by several different names. I just consider "Bogeyman" a nickname for PH.

To me he's not intended to be anybody else but Pyramid Head and seeing as how nurses and dogs are reused in multiple Silent Hill games I don't see a problem with PH being summoned in another one.

True, it's often stated he is intended to be representative of James in SH2. But at the same time there's nothing concrete that says PH is intended to be exclusive to him.

By that logic you could probably argue that SH2 should never have reused nurses since they were representative of Alessa's nightmares. Yeah, I know the nurses in each of the games they appear are different...but that still doesn't change the fact they're still nurses with a nip and tuck.

I take into account how the nurses are represented by different people throughout the series (Alessa-SH1, James-SH2, Alessa again-SH3, Travis/Alessa-Origins, & Alex-Homecoming) I consider it within the realm of possibility for PH to do the same. More so given his role in the town's history as an executioner which fits right into Homecoming's story.

He could be interpreted as representing Alex's anger towards how his father treated him or a punisher for the Order. I personally lean towards the former since it would make sense with the Pyramid Head ending.


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How could he be his own thing, if he has nothing to him but Pyramid Head's iconography?

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Because I really don't see how he's intended to be anybody except Pyramid Head especially considering it's an obvious attempt at fan service.

You have a guy with a pyramid shaped helmet wielding a giant knife much like the same character in SH2. Not really to put the pieces together that the developers intended him to be PH in their attempt to produce a Silent Hill game.

On top of that you have Devin's recent comments stating that they probably shouldn't have included certain monsters for fan service in Homecoming which further tells me he was intended to be nobody else but Pyramid Head.


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Augophthalmoses wrote:
I consider them both one entity. Many take the Bogeyman name to act as if it's the legitimate name of the creature when it just could be that PH is known by several different names. I just consider "Bogeyman" a nickname for PH.

Or maybe Pyramid Head and the Bogeyman exist as separate monsters manifested by separate people.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
To me he's not intended to be anybody else but Pyramid Head and seeing as how nurses and dogs are reused in multiple Silent Hill games I don't see a problem with PH being summoned in another one.

If the Bogeyman is not intended to be anybody else but Pyramid Head then why are there differences between the two? Why is he called "the Bogeyman"? Why does he appear to Alex and Adam?

Augophthalmoses wrote:
True, it's often stated he is intended to be representative of James in SH2. But at the same time there's nothing concrete that says PH is intended to be exclusive to him.

The description of Pyramid Head in Book of Lost Memories suggests otherwise.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
By that logic you could probably argue that SH2 should never have reused nurses since they were representative of Alessa's nightmares. Yeah, I know the nurses in each of the games they appear are different...but that still doesn't change the fact they're still nurses with a nip and tuck.

Image

Image

Silent Hill 2 did not "reuse" nurses. Silent Hill and Silent Hill 2 both feature monsters based on nurses because nurses figure prominently into the backstory of each game.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
I take into account how the nurses are represented by different people throughout the series (Alessa-SH1, James-SH2, Alessa again-SH3, Travis/Alessa-Origins, & Alex-Homecoming) I consider it within the realm of possibility for PH to do the same.

Except that the all of the Nurse monsters (Puppet Nurse, Bubble Head Nurse, Nurse, Faceless Nurse and Nurse) are based on real world nurses. Y'know, just like Pyramid Head and the Bogeyman are both based on the real world guise of Silent Hill executioners.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
More so given his role in the town's history as an executioner which fits right into Homecoming's story.

Pyramid Head was created by James Sunderland. He's never had a role in the town's history.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
He could be interpreted as representing Alex's anger towards how his father treated him or a punisher for the Order. I personally lean towards the former since it would make sense with the Pyramid Head ending.

But then consider how Scarlet and Sepulcher were manifested from the guilt of Fitch and Bartlett. And how they were both killed by their respective monsters.

AuraTwilight wrote:
How could he be his own thing, if he has nothing to him but Pyramid Head's iconography?

I'm talking within the canon.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Because I really don't see how he's intended to be anybody except Pyramid Head especially considering it's an obvious attempt at fan service.

You have a guy with a pyramid shaped helmet wielding a giant knife much like the same character in SH2. Not really to put the pieces together that the developers intended him to be PH in their attempt to produce a Silent Hill game.

On top of that you have Devin's recent comments stating that they probably shouldn't have included certain monsters for fan service in Homecoming which further tells me he was intended to be nobody else but Pyramid Head.

I'm talking within the canon.


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 Post subject: Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?

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I think so, yes. James based the appearance of Pyramid Head off of the executioners of Silent Hill's past, yes? It's not exactly out of the question that someone else who is steeped in Silent Hill lore would use the same image for their punisher. It's also worth noting that it seems to be heavily implied Boogeyman is NOT Alex's punisher, but the parents. It's implied in SH2 that only James and Maria could see Pyramid Head, as it belonged to James. It'd be weird, imo, if the same monster could then be seen by other real people when it's punsihing the parents.

Anyway, it was obviously meant to be Pyramid Head and it was obviously fanservice. But the major SH-related Konami staff now all seem to agree it was a bad idea and that Pyramid Head belongs ONLY in SH2, so I see no problem with considering Boogeyman something else, as it's never stated or implied in the game that it is the same entity.


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^ Agreed.
I see it as a seperate entity. Besides, isn't Bogeyman's helmet different than PH's? That was always my justification, hahaha.

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Cyrus Hanley wrote:
If the Bogeyman is not intended to be anybody else but Pyramid Head then why are there differences between the two?
They're small inconsistencies as a result of being done by a different team. Possibly to match the movie incarnation as further fan service. But he's still clearly intended to be Pyramid Head. He has a Pyramid Head shaped helmet and wields a giant knife. Seems pretty clear he's supposed to be Pyramid Head. It's just people nitpicking over small details. "Oh, look Pyramid Head has a new mechanism on the back of his helmet now! Oh, wait now he wears a skirt instead of an apron! Clearly, he's supposed to be an entirely different creature!"

Yeah, I'm not buying into that reasoning. Going by that logic should I start theorizing that Lisa in Origins is supposed to be an entirely different person just because she has a haircut, a flirtatious attitude, and a different voice? That's the problem with that type of thinking.

Cyrus Hanley wrote:
Why is he called "the Bogeyman"?

It can just be a nickname for him. Much like how SH43 & 4 explain the people responsible for the Silent Hill Smile Society organization are referred to by locals as "The Order".

Cyrus Hanley wrote:
Why does he appear to Alex and Adam?

Already given a reason for this. He can represent Alex's anger towards how his father treated him.

Cyrus Hanley wrote:
The description of Pyramid Head in Book of Lost Memories suggests otherwise.

No, it doesn't:
http://www.translatedmemories.com/bookp ... eature.jpg
"Takes the appearance of an executioner of times past, but it is actually incarnated from the part of James' consciousness that feels he deserves punishment."

Cyrus Hanley wrote:
But then consider how Scarlet and Sepulcher were manifested from the guilt of Fitch and Bartlett. And how they were both killed by their respective monsters.
So what exactly is your point here? You're not really making it clear. In addition, Aspyhxia was manifested by Judge Holloway. I wouldn't say guilt because she doesn't really seem to be harbor any guilt for what she did. If so we didn't really notice it anywhere in the game. The monster doesn't kill Holloway and Holloway doesn't kill it. Is any of this supposed to somehow imply Alex is not for some reason supposed to be able to manifest Pyramid Head? It makes perfect sense with the story as I stated earlier with PH representing Alex's hatred towards how his father treated him as a kid.

Cyrus Hanley wrote:
He's never had a role in the town's history.

Uh, what? SH2 makes it very clear that he's based on the old executioner's within the town's history. Lost Memories even states he's based off the old time executioners. You even said yourself in the post before this one that he was based on the executioners of the town's past.
http://www.translatedmemories.com/bookp ... eature.jpg

Cyrus Hanley wrote:
Except that the all of the Nurse monsters (Puppet Nurse, Bubble Head Nurse, Nurse, Faceless Nurse and Nurse) are based on real world nurses. Y'know, just like Pyramid Head and the Bogeyman are both based on the real world guise of Silent Hill executioners.
You're missing the point of why I typed that up. The nurses in SH2 & 3, Origins, and Homecoming might look different from those in SH1. You can nitpick all you want about how they're just different creatures. But at the end of the day they're still all clearly intended to be any other type of creature except a nurse monster.

Just like how the dogs in SH1, 3, & 4 might look different from one another but they're clearly all intended to be canine creatures.

So if a dog or nurse can be reused in Silent Hill for the basis of a creature (even though we all know it's just the development recycling ideas much like how they reused SH2 environments for SH3) via a different protagonist while giving them a different symbolic meaning...then I don't see how Pyramid Head shouldn't be allowed to do the same. And I already explained possible reasons why he could appear to Alex and Adam: he can represent Alex's suppressed anger towards how his father treated him.

Cyrus Hanley wrote:
I'm talking within the canon.

And this has already been addressed.


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 Post subject: Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?

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NanayaShiki wrote:
I think so, yes. James based the appearance of Pyramid Head off of the executioners of Silent Hill's past, yes? It's not exactly out of the question that someone else who is steeped in Silent Hill lore would use the same image for their punisher. It's also worth noting that it seems to be heavily implied Boogeyman is NOT Alex's punisher, but the parents.

I agree with both points here; both PHs are based on the same source, hence their similar appearances, and that Homecoming's PH was created by Alex's parents (most likely his father).

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Cyrus Hanley wrote:
If the Bogeyman is not intended to be anybody else but Pyramid Head then why are there differences between the two?
They're small inconsistencies as a result of being done by a different team. Possibly to match the movie incarnation as further fan service. But he's still clearly intended to be Pyramid Head. He has a Pyramid Head shaped helmet and wields a giant knife. Seems pretty clear he's supposed to be Pyramid Head. It's just people nitpicking over small details. "Oh, look Pyramid Head has a new mechanism on the back of his helmet now! Oh, wait now he wears a skirt instead of an apron! Clearly, he's supposed to be an entirely different creature!"

Yeah, I'm not buying into that reasoning. Going by that logic should I start theorizing that Lisa in Origins is supposed to be an entirely different person just because she has a haircut, a flirtatious attitude, and a different voice? That's the problem with that type of thinking.

Lisa and the two PHs are kind of different though; one is a human who is able to change of her own volition, whereas the other are manifestations that change based on who creates it/them. To say Lisa is a different person in 0rigins based on her appearances etc is like saying you're a different person should you change your hair style. PH and Bogeyman, when compared to humans at least, are not as autonomous as we are. They only seem to fulfill their purpose; punish James, or whatever he was doing in Homecoming.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Cyrus Hanley wrote:
But then consider how Scarlet and Sepulcher were manifested from the guilt of Fitch and Bartlett. And how they were both killed by their respective monsters.
So what exactly is your point here? You're not really making it clear. In addition, Aspyhxia was manifested by Judge Holloway. I wouldn't say guilt because she doesn't really seem to be harbor any guilt for what she did. If so we didn't really notice it anywhere in the game. The monster doesn't kill Holloway and Holloway doesn't kill it.

Holloway seems to act a little weird (well, not murdery weird, but still weird) when she sees Nora's (I think that's her name) necklace. Here's a video. So it's possible that, even though she showed no other outward signs of guilt, that she felt something in that instant. Either that or she felt guilty about it then and there simply because things didn't work. If everything had worked out the way they had hoped, then she probably wouldn't have felt much guilt at all.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Is any of this supposed to somehow imply Alex is not for some reason supposed to be able to manifest Pyramid Head? It makes perfect sense with the story as I stated earlier with PH representing Alex's hatred towards how his father treated him as a kid.

Both explanations make sense, though I'm more inclined to think that PH is a result of Alex's parent's guilt as that would fit in with all the other bosses;
Sepulcher = Bartlett's guilt
Scarlet = Fitch's guilt
Asphyxia = Holloway's guilt over...something...
Amnion = Alex's guilt

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Cyrus Hanley wrote:
Except that the all of the Nurse monsters (Puppet Nurse, Bubble Head Nurse, Nurse, Faceless Nurse and Nurse) are based on real world nurses. Y'know, just like Pyramid Head and the Bogeyman are both based on the real world guise of Silent Hill executioners.
You're missing the point of why I typed that up. The nurses in SH2 & 3, Origins, and Homecoming might look different from those in SH1. You can nitpick all you want about how they're just different creatures. But at the end of the day they're still all clearly intended to be any other type of creature except a nurse monster.

Just like how the dogs in SH1, 3, & 4 might look different from one another but they're clearly all intended to be canine creatures.

I agree that a nurse monster is a nurse monster, and a dog monster is a dog monster. Their inspiration seems to be similar, despite whoever creates it. Each are based on fear or other similar negative emotions, so despite their differences, they're not that much different at all. But I think PH and Bogeyman are a little different to nurses and dogs in that they're much more powerful manifestations, similar to Sepulcher, Scarlet, Asphyxia, and Amnion. While nurses and dogs are just fears etc, PH and Bogeyman are based on something deeper and more personal.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
So if a dog or nurse can be reused in Silent Hill for the basis of a creature (even though we all know it's just the development recycling ideas much like how they reused SH2 environments for SH3) via a different protagonist while giving them a different symbolic meaning...then I don't see how Pyramid Head shouldn't be allowed to do the same. And I already explained possible reasons why he could appear to Alex and Adam: he can represent Alex's suppressed anger towards how his father treated him.

Wait, are you saying they're the same creature that has just been appropriated by a different protagonist (which is what I gather from your previous comments), or are you suggesting that they're different creatures that use the same inspiration?
I believe that it's very possible for someone to manifest the same kinds of monster if they have similar inspiration; for example Alessa's dislike of nurses, and James' or Mary's experience with nurses, which would be similar to James PH and Homecoming's PH. Both have the same source of inspiration when it comes to their forms. However, I don't think they're the same creature.


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I'm saying I think of Pyramid Head in Homecoming as being the same entity from SH2 manifested for different reasons. And judging from Book of Memories Howard might possibly be doing the same. We'll just need to figure out what Howard is up to in both titles.


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Cyrus Hanley wrote:
Silent Hill 2 did not "reuse" nurses. Silent Hill and Silent Hill 2 both feature monsters based on nurses because nurses figure prominently into the backstory of each game.


Not really. One nurse features in the first game to some extent and one nurse each is mentioned by name in the second and third games as offhand references. That's it.

Hospitals feature prominently in the backstory of each game. Nurses are included in the games only because they are thematically appropriate to the setting.

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Augophthalmoses wrote:
Cyrus Hanley wrote:
If the Bogeyman is not intended to be anybody else but Pyramid Head then why are there differences between the two?
They're small inconsistencies as a result of being done by a different team. Possibly to match the movie incarnation as further fan service. But he's still clearly intended to be Pyramid Head. He has a Pyramid Head shaped helmet and wields a giant knife. Seems pretty clear he's supposed to be Pyramid Head. It's just people nitpicking over small details. "Oh, look Pyramid Head has a new mechanism on the back of his helmet now! Oh, wait now he wears a skirt instead of an apron! Clearly, he's supposed to be an entirely different creature!"

I'm not denying that the Bogeyman was influenced by Pyramid Head in the Silent Hill film.

What I'm saying is that, within the Silent Hill mythology, he is not Pyramid Head or a variant thereof.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Yeah, I'm not buying into that reasoning. Going by that logic should I start theorizing that Lisa in Origins is supposed to be an entirely different person just because she has a haircut, a flirtatious attitude, and a different voice? That's the problem with that type of thinking.

You seem to have forgotten that no where in Homecoming is the Bogeyman referred to as "Pyramid Head" and that Lisa in Origins introduced herself as "Lisa".

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Cyrus Hanley wrote:
Why is he called "the Bogeyman"?

It can just be a nickname for him. Much like how SH43 & 4 explain the people responsible for the Silent Hill Smile Society organization are referred to by locals as "The Order".

Or perhaps he's a separate monster manifested by a separate person with a separate name that only resembles Pyramid Head because the two share a common ancestor - the old executioners of Silent Hill.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Cyrus Hanley wrote:
Why does he appear to Alex and Adam?

Already given a reason for this. He can represent Alex's anger towards how his father treated him.

In which case he's not Pyramid Head.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Cyrus Hanley wrote:
The description of Pyramid Head in Book of Lost Memories suggests otherwise.

No, it doesn't:
http://www.translatedmemories.com/bookp ... eature.jpg
"Takes the appearance of an executioner of times past, but it is actually incarnated from the part of James' consciousness that feels he deserves punishment."

Pyramid Head was manifested by James - so why would he care about Adam and Alex?

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Cyrus Hanley wrote:
But then consider how Scarlet and Sepulcher were manifested from the guilt of Fitch and Bartlett. And how they were both killed by their respective monsters.
So what exactly is your point here? You're not really making it clear.

My point is that you only considered the Bogeyman ending, one of multiple endings available in the game.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
In addition, Aspyhxia was manifested by Judge Holloway. I wouldn't say guilt because she doesn't really seem to be harbor any guilt for what she did. If so we didn't really notice it anywhere in the game. The monster doesn't kill Holloway and Holloway doesn't kill it.

I never once mentioned Judge Holloway or Asphyxia, you brought that topic up yourself.

But if you wish to pursue this, I don't believe that Asphyxia was manifested from guilt. So I don't know why you're trying to argue a point that I already accept.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Is any of this supposed to somehow imply Alex is not for some reason supposed to be able to manifest Pyramid Head?

First of all, it's the Bogeyman and not Pyramid Head.

Second of all, the purpose of that comment was to poke a hole in your belief that the Bogeyman represents Alex's anger with his father. I'm saying it's possible he also represents Adam Shepherd's guilt for treating his son worse than a dog and screwing over the entire town.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
It makes perfect sense with the story as I stated earlier with PH representing Alex's hatred towards how his father treated him as a kid.

Except that we don't know that the Bogeyman ending is canon. We don't know if any of the endings are canon.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Cyrus Hanley wrote:
He's never had a role in the town's history.

Uh, what? SH2 makes it very clear that he's based on the old executioner's within the town's history. Lost Memories even states he's based off the old time executioners. You even said yourself in the post before this one that he was based on the executioners of the town's past.
http://www.translatedmemories.com/bookp ... eature.jpg

You seem to have trouble separating Pyramid Head, a monster manifested from James' guilt, with the executioners of times past, who weren't monsters and are a part of the town's history.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Cyrus Hanley wrote:
Except that the all of the Nurse monsters (Puppet Nurse, Bubble Head Nurse, Nurse, Faceless Nurse and Nurse) are based on real world nurses. Y'know, just like Pyramid Head and the Bogeyman are both based on the real world guise of Silent Hill executioners.
You're missing the point of why I typed that up. The nurses in SH2 & 3, Origins, and Homecoming might look different from those in SH1. You can nitpick all you want about how they're just different creatures. But at the end of the day they're still all clearly intended to be any other type of creature except a nurse monster.

Wait, you're saying that nurse monsters are clearly intended to be any other type of creature except a nurse monster?

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Just like how the dogs in SH1, 3, & 4 might look different from one another but they're clearly all intended to be canine creatures.

Thank you for pointing out what I had already said.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
So if a dog or nurse can be reused in Silent Hill for the basis of a creature (even though we all know it's just the development recycling ideas much like how they reused SH2 environments for SH3) via a different protagonist while giving them a different symbolic meaning...then I don't see how Pyramid Head shouldn't be allowed to do the same. And I already explained possible reasons why he could appear to Alex and Adam: he can represent Alex's suppressed anger towards how his father treated him.

You're the one missing the point.

Groaner, Wormhead, Double Head, Sniffer Dog and Feral all resemble each other because they are all based on real world dogs.

Pyramid Head and the Bogeyman resemble each other because they're both based on the real world Silent Hill executioners.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Cyrus Hanley wrote:
I'm talking within the canon.

And this has already been addressed.

Except you don't seem to comprehend it.

Ryantology wrote:
Cyrus Hanley wrote:
Silent Hill 2 did not "reuse" nurses. Silent Hill and Silent Hill 2 both feature monsters based on nurses because nurses figure prominently into the backstory of each game.


Not really. One nurse features in the first game to some extent and one nurse each is mentioned by name in the second and third games as offhand references. That's it.

Hospitals feature prominently in the backstory of each game. Nurses are included in the games only because they are thematically appropriate to the setting.

Prominently was the wrong choice of words. What I was getting at was that Silent Hill 2 didn't include nurses for the lulz as Augophthalmoses is implying because a nurse (Rachel) was significantly linked in with the backstory.


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That is my point, though: Rachel is not significant. The nurses seen in the game are not specifically derived from Rachel. She's the one nurse who actually has a name, but there is nothing significant about it.

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Quote:
What I'm saying is that, within the Silent Hill mythology, he is not Pyramid Head or a variant thereof.
How not? Just because you don't want him to be?

Quote:
You seem to have forgotten that no where in Homecoming is the Bogeyman referred to as "Pyramid Head" and that Lisa in Origins introduced herself as "Lisa".
Which means nothing honestly. Is it really that hard to believe Bogeyman can simply be another name for Pyramid Head. Just because he's addressed by Pyramid Head doesn't mean he isn't PH. Hell, he's never called Pyramid Head in SH2. The only time the name Pyramid Head shows up is upon inspecting the two PH bodies after that boss fight. And it's merely the name that James gives him. James also called "that red pyramid thing".

So PH going by multiple names isn't exactly some appalling stretch of the imagination.

Quote:
My point is that you only considered the Bogeyman ending, one of multiple endings available in the game.
Your point? It's no different from the comparisons drawn between the Bad ending of Origins and Travis's homicidal persona. People are able to theorize that he's a serial killer based on the photos and what that ending tells us. Whether or not people want to believe it is their problem. The point is there is room to theorize about why PH appears in Homecoming if you pay attention and remain open minded.

Quote:
Or perhaps he's a separate monster manifested by a separate person with a separate name that only resembles Pyramid Head because the two share a common ancestor - the old executioners of Silent Hill.
No, it sounds more like you're making excuses to claim he's not intended to be Pyramid Head merely because you want him to be exclusive to SH2 not because there is solid proof that disproves him as not being PH in Homecoming. And while SH2 does indicate that he is representative of James the game does not definitely imply anywhere that PH is a one time monster that can only be manifested by James and nobody else. Going by that logic we shouldn't have nurses appearing in multiple installments.

[quoite]In which case he's not Pyramid Head.[/quote]
And that's a logical fallacy. SH2 nor any other supplementary material implies that PH cannot be manifested by different people.

Quote:
I never once mentioned Judge Holloway or Asphyxia, you brought that topic up yourself.

But if you wish to pursue this, I don't believe that Asphyxia was manifested from guilt. So I don't know why you're trying to argue a point that I already accept.
Then elaborate what the hell you were getting at with that post because you didn't make yourself clear as to why you were bringing that up. I'm not a mind reader.

Quote:
Pyramid Head was manifested by James - so why would he care about Adam and Alex?
His role in SH2 was to act as a punisher for James which was derived from his old role as an executioner in the town's history. With that in mind there's plenty of reason for him to be manifested to act as a punisher to Adam. Not at all hard to comprehend.

Quote:
First of all, it's the Bogeyman and not Pyramid Head.
You can call him Bogeyman all you want. I call him Pyramid Head in all his appearances because I think he's intended to be nobody else but Pyramid Head. You can just deal with it.

Quote:
Second of all, the purpose of that comment was to poke a hole in your belief that the Bogeyman represents Alex's anger with his father. I'm saying it's possible he also represents Adam Shepherd's guilt for treating his son worse than a dog and screwing over the entire town.
It's not really poking a hole in anything. It's just a theory and both of them are plausible.

Quote:
Except that we don't know that the Bogeyman ending is canon. We don't know if any of the endings are canon.
Thanks, but I already knew that. Still doesn't mean you can look at them for symbolic meaning pertinent to theorizing.

Quote:
You seem to have trouble separating Pyramid Head, a monster manifested from James' guilt, with the executioners of times past, who weren't monsters and are a part of the town's history.
No, the problem is you seem unwilling to accept the possibility that Pyramid Head can be manifested outside of just James.

Quote:
Wait, you're saying that nurse monsters are clearly intended to be any other type of creature except a nurse monster?
Actually, I left a word out typing that up. It's supposed to say "clearly not intended to be any other type of creature except a nurse monster". Which is precisely right. We could get into a separate massive, unnecessary debate of how there are multiple types of nurse monsters and they aren't all the same. But at the end of the day they're all still nurse monsters. It's just nitpicking over trivial matters.

Quote:
Thank you for pointing out what I had already said.
No, actually you never did.

Quote:
You're the one missing the point.

Groaner, Wormhead, Double Head, Sniffer Dog and Feral all resemble each other because they are all based on real world dogs.

Pyramid Head and the Bogeyman resemble each other because they're both based on the real world Silent Hill executioners.
No, you're just projecting like usual. You've been doing just that several times in your past few responses. You're a SH2 fanboy. Okay, I got that. Still doesn't possibility that the PH in Homecoming and SH2 could be one in the same.

Your primary excuse so far is "oh, they just resemble each other because they're based on the same executioners! It doesn't mean they're the same person!" True, but you haven't exactly provided me anything that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that PH in Homecoming is not and cannot be the same one from SH2. Just get over it and accept that some people are willing to harbor theories like this. I promise you will not lose a night's sleep over it.

Quote:
Except you don't seem to comprehend it.
Actually, I do. Stop projecting.

Quote:
Prominently was the wrong choice of words. What I was getting at was that Silent Hill 2 didn't include nurses for the lulz as Augophthalmoses is implying because a nurse (Rachel) was significantly linked in with the backstory.
Never implied that they were included just for lulz. It's just you putting words in people's mouths. Okay, I already got the hint a while back you abhor the thought of Pyramid Head appearing in Homecoming let alone people referring to him as such in that game. You don't have to start making a fuss to where you need to start I'm making certain implications that were never made. Remain composed and don't act like a kid about it.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
     
         
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Augophthalmoses wrote:
Quote:
What I'm saying is that, within the Silent Hill mythology, he is not Pyramid Head or a variant thereof.
How not? Just because you don't want him to be?

I've already answered this, you just choose to ignore it.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Quote:
You seem to have forgotten that no where in Homecoming is the Bogeyman referred to as "Pyramid Head" and that Lisa in Origins introduced herself as "Lisa".
Which means nothing honestly. Is it really that hard to believe Bogeyman can simply be another name for Pyramid Head.

Yes, because you've provided no proof that the Bogeyman is Pyramid Head. You've only conjectured that the Bogeyman is Pyramid Head under a different name.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Just because he's addressed by Pyramid Head doesn't mean he isn't PH.

So you're saying that Pyramid Head is Pyramid Head because he's called Pyramid Head?

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Hell, he's never called Pyramid Head in SH2. The only time the name Pyramid Head shows up is upon inspecting the two PH bodies after that boss fight. And it's merely the name that James gives him. James also called "that red pyramid thing".

Do you realise that you've contradicted yourself?

You say that Pyramid Head was never called Pyramid Head in Silent Hill 2 but then point out the fact that when James examines the bodies the description says, "Pyramid Head won't move anymore."

Augophthalmoses wrote:
So PH going by multiple names isn't exactly some appalling stretch of the imagination.

I'm not arguing that Pyramid Head has multiple names. I'm arguing that the Bogeyman is not Pyramid Head.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Quote:
My point is that you only considered the Bogeyman ending, one of multiple endings available in the game.

Your point? It's no different from the comparisons drawn between the Bad ending of Origins and Travis's homicidal persona. People are able to theorize that he's a serial killer based on the photos and what that ending tells us. Whether or not people want to believe it is their problem. The point is there is room to theorize about why PH appears in Homecoming if you pay attention and remain open minded.

I'm paying very close attention, in case you haven't noticed.

I address each and every one of your points. I pay close enough attention that I find contradictory statements in your arguments and point them out to you.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Quote:
Or perhaps he's a separate monster manifested by a separate person with a separate name that only resembles Pyramid Head because the two share a common ancestor - the old executioners of Silent Hill.
No, it sounds more like you're making excuses to claim he's not intended to be Pyramid Head merely because you want him to be exclusive to SH2 not because there is solid proof that disproves him as not being PH in Homecoming.

As opposed to proof you've provided (none at all) that the Bogeyman is Pyramid Head?

Augophthalmoses wrote:
And while SH2 does indicate that he is representative of James the game does not definitely imply anywhere that PH is a one time monster that can only be manifested by James and nobody else. Going by that logic we shouldn't have nurses appearing in multiple installments.

We've been over this before, in case you couldn't tell.

Nurse monsters appear in multiple Silent Hill installments because they're influenced by characters' perceptions of real world nurses.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
[quoite]In which case he's not Pyramid Head.

And that's a logical fallacy. SH2 nor any other supplementary material implies that PH cannot be manifested by different people.[/quote]
"However, Pyramid Head is only a representation of James' need for punishment.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Quote:
I never once mentioned Judge Holloway or Asphyxia, you brought that topic up yourself.

But if you wish to pursue this, I don't believe that Asphyxia was manifested from guilt. So I don't know why you're trying to argue a point that I already accept.
Then elaborate what the hell you were getting at with that post because you didn't make yourself clear as to why you were bringing that up. I'm not a mind reader.

Forgive me for expecting you to connect the dots between Scarlet and Fitch, Sepulcher and Bartlett, and the Bogeyman and Adam.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Quote:
Pyramid Head was manifested by James - so why would he care about Adam and Alex?
His role in SH2 was to act as a punisher for James which was derived from his old role as an executioner in the town's history.

Pyramid Head wasn't a historical figure.

He was a monster incarnated by James whose physical appearance was derived from paintings of the Silent Hill executioners.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
With that in mind there's plenty of reason for him to be manifested to act as a punisher to Adam. Not at all hard to comprehend.

Except that Pyramid Head was incarnated by James while Sepulcher, Scarlet and Asphyxia were all incarnated by their respective parents.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Quote:
First of all, it's the Bogeyman and not Pyramid Head.
You can call him Bogeyman all you want. I call him Pyramid Head in all his appearances because I think he's intended to be nobody else but Pyramid Head. You can just deal with it.

He's called the Bogeyman in the game.

For you to call the Bogeyman "Pyramid Head" is like calling a Straight-Jacket a "Lying Figure".

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Quote:
Second of all, the purpose of that comment was to poke a hole in your belief that the Bogeyman represents Alex's anger with his father. I'm saying it's possible he also represents Adam Shepherd's guilt for treating his son worse than a dog and screwing over the entire town.
It's not really poking a hole in anything. It's just a theory and both of them are plausible.

I'm glad we can agree on that.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Quote:
Except that we don't know that the Bogeyman ending is canon. We don't know if any of the endings are canon.
Thanks, but I already knew that. Still doesn't mean you can look at them for symbolic meaning pertinent to theorising.

Just as long as you don't try to argue a point using those theories.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Quote:
You seem to have trouble separating Pyramid Head, a monster manifested from James' guilt, with the executioners of times past, who weren't monsters and are a part of the town's history.
No, the problem is you seem unwilling to accept the possibility that Pyramid Head can be manifested outside of just James.

I've considered that possibility and rejected it for the reasons I have outlined.

You're still having trouble separating Pyramid Head, a monster, with the executioners of times past, real world figures judging by your comment, "His role in SH2 was to act as a punisher for James which was derived from his old role as an executioner in the town's history."

Which is absurd. You're saying that Pyramid Head existed long before Silent Hill 2.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Quote:
Wait, you're saying that nurse monsters are clearly intended to be any other type of creature except a nurse monster?
Actually, I left a word out typing that up. It's supposed to say "clearly not intended to be any other type of creature except a nurse monster". Which is precisely right. We could get into a separate massive, unnecessary debate of how there are multiple types of nurse monsters and they aren't all the same. But at the end of the day they're all still nurse monsters. It's just nitpicking over trivial matters.

Like how Pyramid Head and the Bogeyman are both executioners - apples that have fallen from the same tree.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Quote:
Thank you for pointing out what I had already said.
No, actually you never did.

Yes, I did.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Quote:
You're the one missing the point.

Groaner, Wormhead, Double Head, Sniffer Dog and Feral all resemble each other because they are all based on real world dogs.

Pyramid Head and the Bogeyman resemble each other because they're both based on the real world Silent Hill executioners.
No, you're just projecting like usual. You've been doing just that several times in your past few responses.

You've been contradicting your own arguments to the point that I can't tell if you're arguing with me or yourself.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
You're a SH2 fanboy. Okay, I got that.

No, I'm not actually. I've only played Silent Hill 2 once. I liked it, but I also like other games in the series.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Still doesn't possibility that the PH in Homecoming and SH2 could be one in the same.

Emphasis on "could be".

Projecting, much?

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Your primary excuse so far is "oh, they just resemble each other because they're based on the same executioners! It doesn't mean they're the same person!" True, but you haven't exactly provided me anything that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that PH in Homecoming is not and cannot be the same one from SH2.

I can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Bogeyman is not Pyramid Head anymore than you can say that the Bogeyman is Pyramid Head because neither of us work for Konami.

I can, however, construct a compelling argument that the Bogeyman is not Pyramid Head based on evidence and logical reasoning.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Just get over it and accept that some people are willing to harbor theories like this. I promise you will not lose a night's sleep over it.

Then why do you still reply to me?

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Quote:
Except you don't seem to comprehend it.
Actually, I do. Stop projecting.

You can say that I'm projecting but that doesn't make it so.


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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
     
         
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So let me get this straight:

You recognize that they're both theories but you're still trying to challenge me droning on and on about "oh, not it can't be Pyramid Head because he has the Bogeyman in Homecoming and blah blah blah".

Christ, you're a very contradictory user.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
     
         
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Augophthalmoses wrote:
So let me get this straight:

You recognize that they're both theories but you're still trying to challenge me droning on and on about "oh, not it can't be Pyramid Head because he has the Bogeyman in Homecoming and blah blah blah".

The difference is that I'm arguing my theory with evidence while you're arguing yours with conjecture.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
I consider them both one entity. Many take the Bogeyman name to act as if it's the legitimate name of the creature when it just could be that PH is known by several different names. I just consider "Bogeyman" a nickname for PH.


Augophthalmoses wrote:
To me he's not intended to be anybody else but Pyramid Head and seeing as how nurses and dogs are reused in multiple Silent Hill games I don't see a problem with PH being summoned in another one.


Augophthalmoses wrote:
You can call him Bogeyman all you want. I call him Pyramid Head in all his appearances because I think he's intended to be nobody else but Pyramid Head. You can just deal with it.


Augophthalmoses wrote:
No, the problem is you seem unwilling to accept the possibility that Pyramid Head can be manifested outside of just James.


Augophthalmoses wrote:
Christ, you're a very contradictory user.

Take a look in the mirror:

From: http://www.silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=640503
Augophthalmoses wrote:
I take into account how the nurses are represented by different people throughout the series (Alessa-SH1, James-SH2, Alessa again-SH3, Travis/Alessa-Origins, & Alex-Homecoming) I consider it within the realm of possibility for PH to do the same. More so given his role in the town's history as an executioner which fits right into Homecoming's story.


From: http://www.silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=640618
Augophthalmoses wrote:
SH2 makes it very clear that he's based on the old executioner's within the town's history. Lost Memories even states he's based off the old time executioners. You even said yourself in the post before this one that he was based on the executioners of the town's past.
http://www.translatedmemories.com/bookp ... eature.jpg


From: http://www.silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=640704
Augophthalmoses wrote:
His role in SH2 was to act as a punisher for James which was derived from his old role as an executioner in the town's history.


Notice how you flip-flop between saying Pyramid Head is a historical figure to saying that he's a monster manifested by James? I'm not making this up either, go back and look at the order of those statements.

Augophthalmoses wrote:
Hell, he's never called Pyramid Head in SH2. The only time the name Pyramid Head shows up is upon inspecting the two PH bodies after that boss fight.

...


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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
     
         
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I'm arguing with conjecture yet your main argument has been nothing but "his name is Bogeyman! Oh, and he can't be Pyramid Head because he and PH from SH2 are based on blah blah blah"

Your defense is nothing but conjecture whether you're willing to admit to it or not. I've already tried the rational approach of dealing but only to be met with disregard, logical fallacies, and extreme fanboyism for SH2 so debating with you any further is a complete of waste of time.

Quote:
...


Please tell me you're just using ellipses to troll and not actually use them as a serious expression. How many times have you played SH2 for you to be fanboying the hell out of "PH CANNOT APPEAR IN HOMECOMING!" ?

Pyramid Head is never once anywhere in the game addressed verbally by the Pyramid Head. He's only addressed as such when you inspect any of the two bodies after the boss fight. Actually, never mind that. I think I've found the problem.

Quote:
No, I'm not actually. I've only played Silent Hill 2 once. I liked it, but I also like other games in the series.
You've only played the game once...if this is true why should I even bother listening to you? I've played the game dozens of times over the years so I'm fairly certain I know what I'm talking about when I say PH is never addressed by that name in SH2 outside of inspecting those bodies.

And no James saying "red pyramid thing" when he's talking to Eddie does not count as an example since James just gives him a generic name out of description not addressing Pyramid Head formally by a known name.

I mean goddamn...and after pointing that tidbit out I expect your next response is to pretend as if you don't know what anybody is talking about. So with that in mind should I further waste my time going through each individual portion of your posts if you're not even going to argue in a civil manner let alone display any competent knowledge about the series? So basically you took part in this topic to do nothing else but troll? That's pretty pitiful.


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