Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
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Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
I understood you perfectly well, Nanaya. You tried to claim the developers called him Pyramid Head for reasons other than him being Pyramid Head, without providing any proof of it. Unless you can prove they all meant something other than what they actually say, all you're doing is twisting their words and trying to read their minds to reach an unproven conclusion that doesn't line up with their actual statements.
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Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
Only one of these is even a main series game, and is generally regarded as being mistaken by including Pyramid Head. The others are either very fan-servicey and quirky, or are a fucking shitty ass comic that do not inhabit the game's universe due to having a VASTLY different cosmology from the Game's Silent Hill.Explain why he's in The Arcade, Homecoming, Sinner's Reward and Book of Memories.
You can't do it with sounding the least bit convoluted.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
The Arcade is canon. Homecoming is canon. Book of Memories is canon (according to Tomm Hulett). Sinner's Reward should also be canon.
Sinner's Reward is written by Tom Waltz, not Ciencin, and creates no discrepancies. It even copies the layout of Rosewater Park, Pete's and Brookhaven faithfully to the games. It is not a "fucking shitty ass comic", it happens to be my favorite IDW comic, and who are you to say it isn't canon? Tom would be disappointed to hear you say that, considering how he's been to these forums and all.
My point remains: he's not exclusive to James anymore.
To say otherwise is like burying your head in the sand, imo.
Sinner's Reward is written by Tom Waltz, not Ciencin, and creates no discrepancies. It even copies the layout of Rosewater Park, Pete's and Brookhaven faithfully to the games. It is not a "fucking shitty ass comic", it happens to be my favorite IDW comic, and who are you to say it isn't canon? Tom would be disappointed to hear you say that, considering how he's been to these forums and all.
My point remains: he's not exclusive to James anymore.
To say otherwise is like burying your head in the sand, imo.
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Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
Canon doesn't mean "same universe." Stop abusing what Tomm Hulett said, because we've already gone over this. Besides all of that, We still don't know jack shit about Book of Memories, either.The Arcade is canon. Homecoming is canon. Book of Memories is canon (according to Tomm Hulett). Sinner's Reward should also be canon.
Homecoming is riddled with plotholes besides, and the Arcade is just sorta silly.
Bleh, I was about to write something else but I attached Sinner's Reward to another comic for some reason; I apologize, I think I was thinking of one of the IDW comics.Sinner's Reward is written by Tom Waltz, not Ciencin, and creates no discrepancies. It even copies the layout of Rosewater Park, Pete's and Brookhaven faithfully to the games. It is not a "fucking shitty ass comic", it happens to be my favorite IDW comic, and who are you to say it isn't canon? Tom would be disappointed to hear you say that, considering how he's been to these forums and all.
Regardless, the comics aren't necessarily in the same universe, even if they have the same building architecture. You're also putting words in my mouth because I never said that Sinner's Reward WASN'T canon; just a separate universe from the games.
If you're going to keep abusing terminology and quote-mine creator comments to make them mean things they don't actually mean, there's no point arguing with you since you've already been corrected on this.
Prove that any of those instances occured in the same universe as Silent Hill 2. That being said, Tomm's already expressed his opinion that including Pyramid Head in Homecoming was a 'mistake'.My point remains: he's not exclusive to James anymore.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
It's pretty darn obvious Sinner's Reward and The Arcade were meant to be in the same universe of Silent Hill 2 because of the same locales:
- Jacks Inn
- Brookhaven Hospital
- Silent Hill Historical Society
- Toluca Prison
- The Labyrinth
- Pete's Bowl-O-Rama
- Rosewater Park
Even if Homecoming, Sinner's Reward, The Arcade and Book of Memories were non-canon (alternate "what if" scenarios), Pyramid Head still happens to appear in these stories.
Tom Waltz intended Sinner's Reward and Past Life to be canon considering how he apparently used the timeline on this forum, and made the map layout exactly the same as in the games. Why would any author write an entire story and try to make it so faithful to the games with the intent of it being non-canon?
Are you going to try to say Homecoming is non-canon as well? At least you're not dense enough to try to argue against the developer intent of Homecoming, though. People on this forum tend to revere Mr. Hulett as some powerful word of god who has control over the entire canon of the Silent Hill series due to him being a Konami employee. But come on, he's just an ordinary fan like us, really. If he feels Pyramid Head being in Homecoming was a mistake, so be it, but when fans try to pass off two statements:
- The Bogeyman is not actually Pyramid Head
- Pyramid Head is still exclusive to James
...it just seems downright silly to me.
To argue that Pyramid Head is still exclusive to James only creates a jumbled clusterfuck of canon-universe issues, and you have to assume The Arcade/Homecoming/Sinner's Reward/Book of Memories were non-canon/different universe/whatever. It makes Silent Hill more convoluted, but if you simply admit he's not "exclusive to James", this entire convoluted mess goes away.
It just seems extremely selfish and stubborn to cling to these ideas.
- Jacks Inn
- Brookhaven Hospital
- Silent Hill Historical Society
- Toluca Prison
- The Labyrinth
- Pete's Bowl-O-Rama
- Rosewater Park
Even if Homecoming, Sinner's Reward, The Arcade and Book of Memories were non-canon (alternate "what if" scenarios), Pyramid Head still happens to appear in these stories.
Tom Waltz intended Sinner's Reward and Past Life to be canon considering how he apparently used the timeline on this forum, and made the map layout exactly the same as in the games. Why would any author write an entire story and try to make it so faithful to the games with the intent of it being non-canon?
Are you going to try to say Homecoming is non-canon as well? At least you're not dense enough to try to argue against the developer intent of Homecoming, though. People on this forum tend to revere Mr. Hulett as some powerful word of god who has control over the entire canon of the Silent Hill series due to him being a Konami employee. But come on, he's just an ordinary fan like us, really. If he feels Pyramid Head being in Homecoming was a mistake, so be it, but when fans try to pass off two statements:
- The Bogeyman is not actually Pyramid Head
- Pyramid Head is still exclusive to James
...it just seems downright silly to me.
To argue that Pyramid Head is still exclusive to James only creates a jumbled clusterfuck of canon-universe issues, and you have to assume The Arcade/Homecoming/Sinner's Reward/Book of Memories were non-canon/different universe/whatever. It makes Silent Hill more convoluted, but if you simply admit he's not "exclusive to James", this entire convoluted mess goes away.
It just seems extremely selfish and stubborn to cling to these ideas.
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Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
I'm not really clear on what this 'exclusivity' entails. Is it Pyramid Head, the icon or Pyramid Head, the specific concept? Because I have this idea that Pyramid Head is a part of the town's history and has a tendency to appear to more than one person, but Pyramid Head is specifically a violent guidance counselor for James alone, since James is the only person so far who has needed him to take on that particular role.
Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
Honestly, I'm not entirely sure either, but I believe that across all appearances, he was intended to be the same entity/monster.
I have the idea that Pyramid Head is only "part" of the town's history to the exent of his garments and role as an executioner... I personally do not believe the executioners of the prison really wore huge metal-shaped geometrical helmets in which they couldn't see.
This whole thing was ignited by Cyrus when he said questionable things on the wiki such as:
"You aren't allowed to refer to the Bogeyman as Pyramid Head"
"Bogeyman is completely unrelated to Pyramid Head from SH2, they just derive from the same concept"
"Pyramid Head and the Bogeyman are not the same entity"
Also, I feel it's worth noting again that Pyramid is not a single entity, but is rather a "type" of monster, as seen in SH2/Homecoming. So it's possible there's like 5 Pyramid Heads wandering around the town at the time of SH2.
I have the idea that Pyramid Head is only "part" of the town's history to the exent of his garments and role as an executioner... I personally do not believe the executioners of the prison really wore huge metal-shaped geometrical helmets in which they couldn't see.
This whole thing was ignited by Cyrus when he said questionable things on the wiki such as:
"You aren't allowed to refer to the Bogeyman as Pyramid Head"
"Bogeyman is completely unrelated to Pyramid Head from SH2, they just derive from the same concept"
"Pyramid Head and the Bogeyman are not the same entity"
Also, I feel it's worth noting again that Pyramid is not a single entity, but is rather a "type" of monster, as seen in SH2/Homecoming. So it's possible there's like 5 Pyramid Heads wandering around the town at the time of SH2.
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Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
To be entirely fair, most of the locations you listed were in the IDW comics as well; it's not like the layout of the town has anything to do with what universe things go in anyway; it's like ordering your Legend of Zelda timeline by Hyrule's geography. It's nonsense.It's pretty darn obvious Sinner's Reward and The Arcade were meant to be in the same universe of Silent Hill 2 because of the same locales:
That's not what 'canon' means, according to Tomm Hulett's definition.Even if Homecoming, Sinner's Reward, The Arcade and Book of Memories were non-canon (alternate "what if" scenarios), Pyramid Head still happens to appear in these stories.
"Alternate Universe" does not mean "Non-Canon". "Canon" does not mean "Main universe." Tomm Hulett considered Shattered Memories to be canon, but it's not in the same universe as anything else.Tom Waltz intended Sinner's Reward and Past Life to be canon considering how he apparently used the timeline on this forum, and made the map layout exactly the same as in the games. Why would any author write an entire story and try to make it so faithful to the games with the intent of it being non-canon?
He's a fan who currently has executive control over the universe of Silent Hill. Sorry, but he DOES have the authority to overturn previous developers with new content, technically.Are you going to try to say Homecoming is non-canon as well? At least you're not dense enough to try to argue against the developer intent of Homecoming, though. People on this forum tend to revere Mr. Hulett as some powerful word of god who has control over the entire canon of the Silent Hill series due to him being a Konami employee. But come on, he's just an ordinary fan like us, really.
The thing is that, well...Homecoming is fucking bullshit in every way, the rest are really ambiguous as to their canon/universe status, and we honestly don't know a damn thing about Book of Memories.To argue that Pyramid Head is still exclusive to James only creates a jumbled clusterfuck of canon-universe issues, and you have to assume The Arcade/Homecoming/Sinner's Reward/Book of Memories were non-canon/different universe/whatever. It makes Silent Hill more convoluted, but if you simply admit he's not "exclusive to James", this entire convoluted mess goes away.
It just seems extremely selfish and stubborn to cling to these ideas.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
What's your personal definition of canon, Aura?
I feel that if the other games+comics were really meant to be non-canon, then they'd outright state it in the game, on an official website, or something.
I thought Jeremy was the one who said "Anything Konami says is canon", not Tomm. But I wouldn't be surprised if Tomm said that too.
And did Tomm ever outright state "Pyramid Head is exclusive to James"? Saying that Pyramid Head being in Homecoming was a mistake doesn't necessarily imply that to me.
Homecoming is part of the main series now, whether we like it or not. We can't retcon thousands and thousands of copies sold, so I think we should try to work with it, not against it.
I feel that if the other games+comics were really meant to be non-canon, then they'd outright state it in the game, on an official website, or something.
I thought Jeremy was the one who said "Anything Konami says is canon", not Tomm. But I wouldn't be surprised if Tomm said that too.
And did Tomm ever outright state "Pyramid Head is exclusive to James"? Saying that Pyramid Head being in Homecoming was a mistake doesn't necessarily imply that to me.
Homecoming is part of the main series now, whether we like it or not. We can't retcon thousands and thousands of copies sold, so I think we should try to work with it, not against it.
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Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
Irrelevant, I'm talking about Tomm Hulett's, who's definition has already been told to you, I believe?What's your personal definition of canon, Aura?
Pffft. Developers tend not to care as much about these issues as we fans do.I feel that if the other games+comics were really meant to be non-canon, then they'd outright state it in the game, on an official website, or something.
He has agreed that PH should be exclusive to James.And did Tomm ever outright state "Pyramid Head is exclusive to James"? Saying that Pyramid Head being in Homecoming was a mistake doesn't necessarily imply that to me.
Sales don't determine anything within Silent Hill's fictional universe. Tomm Hulett also encourages for us to build our own personal canons.Homecoming is part of the main series now, whether we like it or not. We can't retcon thousands and thousands of copies sold, so I think we should try to work with it, not against it.
With that permission? Homecoming can go straight the fuck off a cliff, imo.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
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Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
No, I didn't. You still don't understand what I was trying to say. I said that their intend could be read like that. Them saying that the figure is Pyramid Head doesn't automatically confirm that "it's the same Pyramid Head as SH2" because that's not what they were saying. They were just calling it "Pyramid Head". That's the name iconic with the appearance, so even if they were meant to be different entities, that doesn't mean they can't call him by a blanket name that people recognize it with. All I was saying was that it wasn't a final nail in any coffin, like you said it was.JKristine35 wrote:I understood you perfectly well, Nanaya. You tried to claim the developers called him Pyramid Head for reasons other than him being Pyramid Head, without providing any proof of it. Unless you can prove they all meant something other than what they actually say, all you're doing is twisting their words and trying to read their minds to reach an unproven conclusion that doesn't line up with their actual statements.
I twisted their words no more than you did by assuming something that was never stated. And I assumed nothing, I merely said it doesn't confirm anything.
As I said, I'm done arguing with you. I'm not going to reply to everything you said because, to be honest, it's pointless. You clearly decided what you want to accept and you want to argue with everyone who disagrees with it. But I'll do this one last time.Alex420 wrote:Explain why he's in The Arcade, Homecoming, Sinner's Reward and Book of Memories.
You can't do it with sounding the least bit convoluted.
Every time someone points out to you why what you are saying doesn't make sense or why we feel the way we do, you refuse to accept it. You try and play the "how do YOU know" card, and claim we are interpreting things wrong. But then you go on and make huge leaps in logic to reach your own conclusion. You ignore everything we tell you.
The developers said that Pyramid Head was exclusive to James. They said that three years ago James visited Silent Hill and the image of ancient executioners overlapped with his own personal desire for punishment. And yes, the old executioners wore the helmet too. We know, for a fact, that they intended Pyramid Head to be a representation of James desire for punishment. We know, for a fact, that it was BASED on ancient executioners in appearance. How much more do you NEED? You are trying to argue against something that was obvious.
Now, you want me to explain how those things can exist? Simple, the same way we have been saying this entire fucking time.
The Arcade - This is not the Pyramid Head of Silent Hill 2, but another creature with the same appearance. Since, as we know, this appearance pre-dates the Pyramid Head of Silent Hill 2.
Homecoming - This is not the Pyramid Head of Silent Hill 2, but another creature with the same appearance. Since, as we know, this appearance pre-dates the Pyramid Head of Silent Hill 2. Please note that Tomm Hulett agrees the use of the imagery in here was in poor tastes.
Sinner's Reward - This comic book is as non-canon as the movie. There is no reason to assume any comic but Past Life is canon. Please note the writer has acknowledged that he put Pyramid Head in this comic because he didn't realize he was exclusive to James at the time. He knows this now and wishes he hadn't put him in there. However, if you really really want to pretend this is canon, there is a simple explanation for Pyramid Head being in this too. This is not the Pyramid Head of Silent Hill 2, but another creature with the same appearance. Since, as we know, this appearance pre-dates the Pyramid Head of Silent Hill 2.
Book of Memories - We have no idea because we don't know the story of Book of Memories yet. Tomm Hulett agrees Pyramid Head of SH2 should be exclusive to James, so I doubt he put him in there as any confirmation that he's not.
There. Now, I'm done with this. Because it will get me nowhere. You are going to do the same exact thing that people always do when this argument comes up. And I see no real reason why I should bother with it. I've been having this argument since 2008. I'm sick of it.
Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
Nanaya, you're the one getting extremely aggravated and defensive, not me. I'm trying to stay cool, calm and collected and least I'm actually supporting and backing up my statements with actual material. You portray me as some opinionated narrow-minded guy who demands that everyone must conform to his standards. I'm not.
The word "was" can also take on different meanings: one of them being that he used to be exclusive, but now he's not anymore.
This doesn't equal that, just to let you know. There is no proof that James actually visited the Historical Society. If he did, then why didn't he comment on it at all in game? We know he went to Lakeview Hotel and Rosewater Park, but not the Historical Society.
http://www.geocities.jp/nobu_hill/paint ... hing2.html
http://www.konami.jp/am/silenthill/crea ... RAMIDTHING
Did Tom Waltz ever state that he regrets placing PH in his comic? Show me.
Seriously, Nanaya, show me actual sources and links to back up your statements. Don't ignore me just because my bullshit detector happens to be going off because you can't provide links. He's actually referred to as "Red Pyramid Thing" and "Pyramid Head" in other media, which would naturally suggest that they are all the same entity and monster. To argue against this natural conclusion is being convoluted and unnecessarily complex.
You've yet to show me this. By the way, Tomm isn't a "developers", he's a "developer" and there's a big difference between "I personally Pyramid Head should have been exclusive" and "Pyramid Head is exclusive". Somehow one man equals "developers" to you. Also, not all developers share the same opinions, you know.NanayaShiki wrote: The developers said that Pyramid Head was exclusive to James.
The word "was" can also take on different meanings: one of them being that he used to be exclusive, but now he's not anymore.
This is not a fact. We aren't sure to the extent of which Pyramid Head's appearance is based off the executioners. If they really wore helmets, then why are they seen wearing red hoods in their photo? And what's the point in switching from a cotton hood to a metal helmet? Trying to execute someone while wearing a 30lb solid metal helmet which obscures your vision is just plain stupid. They wore red hoods because it was a homage to Valtiel, but giant metal helmets? ...Really? >_> It's extremely impractical and overkill.NanayaShiki wrote: And yes, the old executioners wore the helmet too.
You claimed that "James went to the Historical Society in the past."NanayaShiki wrote: They said that three years ago James visited Silent Hill and the image of ancient executioners overlapped with his own personal desire for punishment.
This doesn't equal that, just to let you know. There is no proof that James actually visited the Historical Society. If he did, then why didn't he comment on it at all in game? We know he went to Lakeview Hotel and Rosewater Park, but not the Historical Society.
Well, duh, I know this much. But being "based" on something doesn't mean that their appearances are necessarily 100% the same.NanayaShiki wrote: We know, for a fact, that they intended Pyramid Head to be a representation of James desire for punishment. We know, for a fact, that it was BASED on ancient executioners in appearance.
If he's another creature, then why is he still labeled as "Red Pyramid Thing" by Ito in his artwork and as "Red Pyramid Thing" on the official Japanese website?NanayaShiki wrote: The Arcade - This is not the Pyramid Head of Silent Hill 2, but another creature with the same appearance.
http://www.geocities.jp/nobu_hill/paint ... hing2.html
http://www.konami.jp/am/silenthill/crea ... RAMIDTHING
Who are you to say it's non-canon?NanayaShiki wrote: Sinner's Reward - This comic book is as non-canon as the movie. There is no reason to assume any comic but Past Life is canon. Please note the writer has acknowledged that he put Pyramid Head in this comic because he didn't realize he was exclusive to James at the time.
Did Tom Waltz ever state that he regrets placing PH in his comic? Show me.
Seriously, Nanaya, show me actual sources and links to back up your statements. Don't ignore me just because my bullshit detector happens to be going off because you can't provide links. He's actually referred to as "Red Pyramid Thing" and "Pyramid Head" in other media, which would naturally suggest that they are all the same entity and monster. To argue against this natural conclusion is being convoluted and unnecessarily complex.
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Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
http://www.destructoid.com/interview-to ... 0084.phtmlDid Tom Waltz ever state that he regrets placing PH in his comic? Show me.
Literally the first result in a google search on Tom Waltz Pyramid Head Sinner's Rward. I can do the same for any of Nanaya's statements.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
Alright then, he says it was a mistake, though the comic is still unfortunately out there now.
This can be excused.
I'd still like proof for:
- The old executioners wearing the metal helmet
- James visiting Silent Hill Historical Society three years ago
This can be excused.
I'd still like proof for:
- The old executioners wearing the metal helmet
- James visiting Silent Hill Historical Society three years ago
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Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
http://translatedmemories.com/bookpgs/Pg110-111.jpg
Boom. There's proof of the old executioners wearing the metal helmet. You should really get into the habit of conducting your own research instead of getting hostile at other people.
Boom. There's proof of the old executioners wearing the metal helmet. You should really get into the habit of conducting your own research instead of getting hostile at other people.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
'Scuse me? How am I being hostile?
Anyway, I don't consider that proof.
"The Pyramid Head outfit was the guise of the executioners"
It isn't specific at all. It could be referring to his robes, his boots, or his gloves. It doesn't specifically state "helmet". Guise means "general appearance" according to this: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/guise
In general, both wear hooded red headgear and robes, but it doesn't mention any specifics.
How about James visiting the Historical Society three years ago?
Anyway, I don't consider that proof.
"The Pyramid Head outfit was the guise of the executioners"
It isn't specific at all. It could be referring to his robes, his boots, or his gloves. It doesn't specifically state "helmet". Guise means "general appearance" according to this: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/guise
In general, both wear hooded red headgear and robes, but it doesn't mention any specifics.
How about James visiting the Historical Society three years ago?
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Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
Could someone please explain to me the difference between:
A. A monster that IS a Pyramid Head
B. A monster with the same appearance and behavior as a Pyramid Head
?
What do you think the bold clause is referring to, if not the figure of executioners in a Pyramid Head guise? How would it have made its way into his unconscious mind if he didn't see that figure someplace?
Mod edit: Do not double post. If you have anything else to add, please use the edit button instead. - Calamity
A. A monster that IS a Pyramid Head
B. A monster with the same appearance and behavior as a Pyramid Head
?
"Three years ago, when James visited the town, that figure overlapped with his desire for punishment."Alex420 wrote:'Scuse me? How am I being hostile?
Anyway, I don't consider that proof.
"The Pyramid Head outfit was the guise of the executioners"
It isn't specific at all. It could be referring to his robes, his boots, or his gloves. It doesn't specifically state "helmet". Guise means "general appearance" according to this: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/guise
In general, both wear hooded red headgear and robes, but it doesn't mention any specifics.
How about James visiting the Historical Society three years ago?
What do you think the bold clause is referring to, if not the figure of executioners in a Pyramid Head guise? How would it have made its way into his unconscious mind if he didn't see that figure someplace?
Mod edit: Do not double post. If you have anything else to add, please use the edit button instead. - Calamity
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Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
Considered, but not used as definitive proof.Alex420 wrote:Konami, as well as the developers, work with the producers of strategy guides. So yes, it should be considered.
Don't you think it's odd though, that the web site advertises "the two bonus weapons" but not the bonus ending? Especially considering that they would be working with the developers and publisher. It suggests that they weren't working as closely as you believe.Alex420 wrote: There's 5 endings. They probably just don't count the bonus scene with Joshua as another ending. Nothing wrong with that.
They talk about the development of the game and the Bogeyman character.Alex420 wrote: Both of those interviews came out after Homecoming was released. Those interviews were not done before or during development, they were done after development. And they still refer to him as Pyramid Head.
Yes.Alex420 wrote: If you "accept" PH appears to other people than James, then you're admitting he isn't exclusive to James, are you not?
But you did list Travis, Alex and Adam based on the assumptions that...Alex420 wrote: I listed people who've seen Pyramid Head to prove that he's not exclusive to James, I wasn't trying to prove he was the Bogeyman with that list. Durrr…
a) The painting in the Gillespie House is of Pyramid Head
b) The Bogeyman is Pyramid Head
and c) Adam actually saw the Bogeyman (who you're also assuming is Pyramid Head).
So, you jumped to conclusions.
Hey, that is a neat coincidence!Alex420 wrote:Oh hey, that stick figure is wearing a green jacket.Cyrus Hanley wrote:
Who else was wearing a green jacket in SH2? Just saying.
How do I know Konami's marketing was only trying to increase sales when they said "Red Pyramid Thing - Bogeyman version"? That's what marketing divisions do, they increase sales. I don't see how the association with Red Pyramid Thing could possibly lower their sales and it certainly wouldn't be their aim to do so.Alex420 wrote: By the way, you're totally jumping to conclusions when you state:
- "The marketing department thought it was a smart move, and it was."
- "Escalante is an artist, who was told to create a monster heavily-based on the physical appearance of Pyramid Head in the Silent Hill film."
How do you know Konami's marketing was only trying to increase sales when they said "Red Pyramid Thing - Bogeyman version"?
Alex420 wrote: And how do you know Escalante was told to design after the film, which is why he named him "Pyramid Head" in his art? You don't. It's very possible that for both reasons, it was due to the Bogeyman being Pyramid Head.
The similarities are universally acknowledged and, as I explained before, the Bogeyman was Pyramid Head until Jason and Tomm gave him his own name, myth and purpose.
Tomm Hulett wrote:For example, on Homecoming I helped Designer Jason Allen figure out Pyramid Head’s “purpose,†and I wrote the Bogeyman nursery rhyme which you can find on drawings throughout that game.
People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.Alex420 wrote:Don't jump to conclusions.
For the same reason that Francis Bacon's artwork appeared in real life galleries.Alex420 wrote: It's still your interpretation that the painting is real. Why would such a disturbing painting (with corpses in floating cages) even be in a museum, anyway? It's too macabre
@ JKristine35: I haven't dodged any creator statements. I've addressed them all.
In fact, I did the one thing Twin Perfect would never do. I contacted the creator directly and acknowledged what they said.
My question.
His answer.
My response.
@ Soulless-Shadow: Travis was in the Real World when he rescued Alessa from the Gillespie House.
@ KingCrimson: What do I think it means to say that the Bogeyman and Pyramid Head are different entities? Well, for starters, I prefer the term "separate entities". I think that to say Pyramid Head and the Bogeyman are separate entities is analogous to saying that Lying Figure and Straight-Jacket are separate entities.
I think that because they were manifested by different people, have differing physical appearances and have different names that they should be considered separate entities. If they were the same being then I wouldn't expect any differences -- not in how many sides the pyramid helmet has, not in whether the pyramid helmet has markings on it or not, not in whether his chest is covered or exposed, not in whether his knife is serrated or not, not in what he is supposed to represent, et cetera. What we are (or were) arguing about is whether the Bogeyman in Silent Hill: Homecoming is Pyramid Head from Silent Hill 2.
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Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
@Nanaya, Perhaps I should have been more clear. Yes, I understand you said it was a possibility, that's what I've been debating. But the fact is they said "Pyramid Head", not "a creature like Pyramid Head", or "Pyramid Head-like", so it's not a possibility at all unless you add unsaid words to their sentences and assume what they're saying doesn't match what they're thinking. In fact, at least one of those quotes was ridiculously specific about it being the same monster lifted from SH2 and brought to SHH. That's like someone referring to their son as "Greg", only to later reveal his name is actually "Steve", but he looks so much like a completely different kid named "Greg" that his own parents decided to call him that. Considering those quotes came out after the release of SHH, it doesn't make sense that they wouldn't call him by his finalized name, unless "Bogeyman" and "Pyramid Head" are the same thing. To say there's no less than 3 different monsters who all look and act the same in the same series really sounds silly to me. Nurses maybe, because everyone fears illness to some extent, but something as unique as PH? That many people could not have just happened to manifest the exact same thing. Sure, PH was originally intended to be exclusive to James, but that was changed. As much as it may have been a shitty move, he still appears multiple times in one canon timeline to different people, which is concrete evidence that he no longer belongs to just James. Tomm may have regretted putting him in SHH, but nowhere does he say it's not the same PH in the game, just that putting him there was a bad idea (which it was, imo).
@Cyrus, the figure's pants and jacket are the same color as James', how can you ignore that? Other drawings have proven a definitive connection with imagery from SH2, so it's incredibly unlikely that giving the figure the same clothes as James was a mistake. The drawings prove that the Bogeyman changes shape depending on who sees him, but is still one entity. That two of the pictures contain imagery directly relating to PH in SH2 is pretty definitive proof that SH2 saw a manifestation of the same creature. Those drawings render your argument that he would look exactly the same to everyone moot.
Also, Twin Perfect has contacted developers before, just so you know it. It's just that they ignore anything they don't like, and wildly wave around any parts that they do. Your statement implying Mayan Escalante couldn't possibly understand his own creation because he's just the artist sounds a lot like TP's claims that Ito couldn't understand the SH story and meaning of his creations. That's what I was pointing out.
@Cyrus, the figure's pants and jacket are the same color as James', how can you ignore that? Other drawings have proven a definitive connection with imagery from SH2, so it's incredibly unlikely that giving the figure the same clothes as James was a mistake. The drawings prove that the Bogeyman changes shape depending on who sees him, but is still one entity. That two of the pictures contain imagery directly relating to PH in SH2 is pretty definitive proof that SH2 saw a manifestation of the same creature. Those drawings render your argument that he would look exactly the same to everyone moot.
Also, Twin Perfect has contacted developers before, just so you know it. It's just that they ignore anything they don't like, and wildly wave around any parts that they do. Your statement implying Mayan Escalante couldn't possibly understand his own creation because he's just the artist sounds a lot like TP's claims that Ito couldn't understand the SH story and meaning of his creations. That's what I was pointing out.
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Re: Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?
Your posts just come off as pretty antagonistic and defensive when people disagree with you, calm down.Alex420 wrote:'Scuse me? How am I being hostile?
Anyway, I don't consider that proof.
"The Pyramid Head outfit was the guise of the executioners"
It isn't specific at all. It could be referring to his robes, his boots, or his gloves. It doesn't specifically state "helmet". Guise means "general appearance" according to this: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/guise
In general, both wear hooded red headgear and robes, but it doesn't mention any specifics.
How about James visiting the Historical Society three years ago?
Also, dictionary word-picking isn't going to work because this is a translation of a Japanese document; Japanese words don't have multiple applications like in the English language, and, quite frankly, the helmet is the MOST DISTINCTIVE aspect of Pyramid Head's appearance, AND there's a painting of him, AND there's a mural in the prison of two Pyramid Heads on the gallows.
What more do you WANT, man? What reasoning do you have to deny it, aside from being contrarian?
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]