Should the Bogeyman be considered a standalone monster?

[JKristine35]

Nanaya, you're putting words in the creators' mouths. Those links don't say "he looks like Pyramid Head" or "a creature similar to Pyramid Head", they just flat-out call him Pyramid Head. The movie can't be argued here, because it's part of an entirely different canon, and was never meant to be in the same universe as the games. In the movie's universe, the creature Rose sees is the one and only Pyramid Head. There is no James, no Mary, no SH2 story. You really can't cross-reference two different canons to prove a point.

[AuraTwilight]

If Pyramid Head is "exclusive to James", then it's a bitch explaining why he appears to:

- Travis (in a painting)

The painting is something that actually exists in the real world of Silent Hill. James based his Pyramid Head monster off of it.

[Alex420]

Paintings can be extremely unreliable in Silent Hill (everything we see is from Travis' perspective), and I wouldn't say we know for sure Pyramid Head is based on that particular one, or even a "real" painting to begin with. Lost Memories says he's based on the executioners of Toluca Prison, it never says anything about a painting.

Ever play Eternal Darkness or Amnesia?
Those games have unreliable paintings as well. Silent Hill should be no exception to the rule.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X04uBXRkDFw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSXcajQnasc (4:35 vs 5:40... notice how the painting morphs from a peaceful landscape into hell on earth)

ANYWAY...

My original point is all about exclusivity: it is not up to us fans to retcon the past and decide to go against the known developer's canon, which is what Nanaya feels we should do.

Listen: Pyramid Head not being exclusive to James is a fact of life -- either you learn how to deal with that or you go under.

[Cyrus Hanley]

Forgive me for the quotes and page stretching.

Just some more things to consider.

http://www.bradygames.com/store/product ... 0744010438
"Unlock Pyramid Head’s helmet and other extra outfits."

You make it sound like Brady Games has any authority or insight into the issue.

If a gaming magazine called Smog "Lying Figure", does that mean Smog is Lying Figure? No!

Also, for the record, that web site says there are five endings in Homecoming, which you and I know both know is wrong.

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/11/ ... omecoming/

"We were interested in exploring the nature of Pyramid Head. Placing him within "Homecoming" wasn’t a decision that was taken lightly. If we could not create a consistent reasoning for his presence then we would not put him in at all. In "Silent Hill 2" Pyramid Head represented James’s desire for punishment, but you could say that all creatures in "Silent Hill" are some form of emotional manifestation. In "Homecoming" we tried to maintain that same resonance. In "Homecoming" he was the embodiment of a myth [that] parents started to keep the children out of trouble."

He's talking about it from an out-of-universe perspective. Of course the Bogeyman was influenced by Pyramid Head, nobody denies that.

http://silenthillheaven.com/main/shhf_shsminterview/

"On Homecoming I helped Designer Jason Allen figure out Pyramid Head’s “purpose,” and I wrote the Bogeyman nursery rhyme which you can find on drawings throughout that game." - Tomm Hulett

Which was way back when the Bogeyman wasn't even the Bogeyman, he was still Pyramid Head from the Silent Hill film.

Why would the developers refer to him as anything but? The monster didn't even have a purpose, he was just... there.

http://web.archive.org/web/201105141024 ... -hill.html

When the Bogeyman figure was out on Konamistyle, it was called "Red Pyramid Thing - Bogeyman version". Pyramid Head is also known as Red Pyramid Thing.

The marketing department thought it was a smart move, and it was. You get together one hundred people and ask them to identify the figure in that picture, most of them who have any knowledge of Silent Hill will say "Pyramid Head". Even those who played Homecoming. Even me, if you asked me five years ago.

Likewise, if you got together a hundred people who had at least heard of Silent Hill and showed them this:



They would say anything from, "Lying Figure", "Patient Demon", "Straight-Jacket", "Armless Man", or even just "a monster".

This isn't about what the developers of Homecoming wanted. It's about what we, as the fanbase, should take as true in regards to Silent Hill canon and mythology.

Pyramid Head is no longer exclusive to James. He appears in other Silent Hill media.

And a lot of that Silent Hill media doesn't have anything to do with the main continuity.

The more people try to defend that Pyramid Head is exclusive to James, the more convoluted he becomes and the more people try to clutch at straws.

If Pyramid Head is "exclusive to James", then it's a bitch explaining why he appears to:

- Travis (in a painting)

I explained that on this page, but it seems you've already gone and handwaved it.

- Eric
- Tina
- Jessie

That's cool and all, but it doesn't support your argument that the Bogeyman is Pyramid Head.

- Alex
- Adam

It's obvious the Bogeyman was manifested by either Alex, Adam, or even possibly both.

Also, we can't say that the Bogeyman appeared to Adam because he never does in-game.

- Jack
- Finn
- Sara
- Katie
- Derek
- Trent
- Naomi

That proves that Pyramid Head appears to others. It doesn't prove that the Bogeyman is Pyramid Head.

(and in the film universe)
- Rose
- Anna
- Cybil
- Dahlia
- Possibly Heather

Which has nothing at all to do with this discussion, whether the Bogeyman and Pyramid are the same entity or different entities. Not to mention that the film has its own universe and continuity.

I think it's time we accept that Pyramid Head is no longer exclusive to James, and is an entity of the town who appears slightly different to everyone. If you try to argue otherwise, you only wind up creating a list of flimsy and weak reasons.

I'll accept (and indeed, have accepted) that Pyramid Head appears to others, but not that the Bogeyman is Pyramid Head.

Besides, I already showed you enough reasons which support the Bogeyman being Pyramid Head including:

- The visual similarities in the Bogeyman drawings and what is seen in SH2

Okay, I'll bite.

1. The pyramid-shaped head is indeed remarkable, but there are other drawings depicting "the Bogeyman" without it.



This particular drawing depicts the exact opposite of the pyramid-shaped head, a round head with large teeth.



This one is of worse quality, but the general shape of the head is round.



And this one is completely different, the Bogeyman doesn't have any distinguishing features.



In that last picture, I think the head looks more like an executioner's hood. YMMV.

2. The suspended cages in the drawing do bear a resemblance to the painting, but that doesn't prove the Bogeyman is Pyramid Head because you don't even know if that is Pyramid Head in the painting. Also, Maria is upside down while the prisoner in the drawing is right side up.

There's also the associated writing, "You are your brother's keeper, remember it always. Or else, the Bogeyman will chain you underneath the waves."

Granted, they don't appear to be "underneath the waves", but the theme of imprisonment is demonstrated.

3. As for the spears and victim imagery, I'm not sure what you're implying here other than similarity. It appears to me that the inscribed picture on the gallows influenced James and could have possibly influenced the child's drawings (along with any other cult memorabilia for that matter).

- Mayan Escalante referring to the Bogeyman as Pyramid Head

Unfortunately, Mayan Escalante doesn't hold as much clout as Masahiro Ito.

Escalante is an artist, who was told to create a monster heavily-based on the physical appearance of Pyramid Head in the Silent Hill film. Why wouldn't he call it "Pyramid Head"?

There's also the fact that alongside the "Pyramid Head" render is a sketch of Joshua Shepherd, back when he was originally going to have dead, rotting skin. Of course, he doesn't actually appear like that in the game. The idea was scrapped when a sequence of Alex emerging from the water as this corpse was removed from the game during development.

- The coding in the game's files referring to the Bogeyman as Pyramid Head

You don't see the coding in game and if you do, then there's something wrong with it.

If it came to light that coding in Silent Hill 2 referred to James as "Joseph", nobody would bat an eyelid. It doesn't change anything.

- The Homecoming strategy guide referring to him as Pyramid Head

You mean the Brady Games one?

- His figurine on Konamistyle

A result of marketing.

More people would identify that figure in the picture as Pyramid Head, because he's appeared in more media - games, comic books and a film.

- Interviews in which the developers refer to him as Pyramid Head

Because he basically was, during development. The designers transplanted him directly from the Silent Hill film and then sat around scratching their heads, wondering what kind of name and backstory they could give him that would fit the rest of the game.

See where I'm going with this? The more you try to deny it, the more knots you create in the long run. The fanbase should just accept what happened and move on with life, instead of trying to deny everything else. It's the mature thing to do, imo.

I accept that Pyramid Head appears to people other than James, but that doesn't mean he is the Bogeyman.

It seems the developers always intended the two monsters to be the same, just with slight variations in appearance and purpose.

That is, until Jason Allen and Tomm Hulett fleshed out the character and gave him a backstory. Which is something I've said multiple times.

[Alex420]

No, I'm not forgiving you for the extreme quoting.

You make it sound like Brady Games has any authority or insight into the issue.

Konami, as well as the developers, work with the producers of strategy guides. So yes, it should be considered.

Also, for the record, that web site says there are five endings in Homecoming, which you and I know both know is wrong.

There's 5 endings. They probably just don't count the bonus scene with Joshua as another ending. Nothing wrong with that.

Which was way back when the Bogeyman wasn't even the Bogeyman, he was still Pyramid Head from the Silent Hill film.

Both of those interviews came out after Homecoming was released. Those interviews were not done before or during development, they were done after development. And they still refer to him as Pyramid Head. Your points are now invalid.

That proves that Pyramid Head appears to others. It doesn't prove that the Bogeyman is Pyramid Head.

If you "accept" PH appears to other people than James, then you're admitting he isn't exclusive to James, are you not? I listed people who've seen Pyramid Head to prove that he's not exclusive to James, I wasn't trying to prove he was the Bogeyman with that list. Durrr...

Oh hey, that stick figure is wearing a green jacket.
Who else was wearing a green jacket in SH2? Just saying.

By the way, you're totally jumping to conclusions when you state:

- "The marketing department thought it was a smart move, and it was."
- "Escalante is an artist, who was told to create a monster heavily-based on the physical appearance of Pyramid Head in the Silent Hill film."

How do you know Konami's marketing was only trying to increase sales when they said "Red Pyramid Thing - Bogeyman version"? And how do you know Escalante was told to design after the film, which is why he named him "Pyramid Head" in his art? You don't. It's very possible that for both reasons, it was due to the Bogeyman being Pyramid Head. Don't jump to conclusions.

Also, noticed how I only quoted you 5 times?
That's the beauty of being concise and to the point.

[JKristine35]

Yeah, I'd like to see the hard proof that all these quotes calling the Bogeyman Pyramid Head were made for reasons other than him being Pyramid Head. It seems Cyrus is dodging creator statements Twin Perfect-style (what could the artist know about the monsters or story????).

[alone in the town]

Please stop making gigantic quote monsters, Cyrus. It is entirely unnecessary to respond to every single sentence in a post.

[AuraTwilight]

Paintings can be extremely unreliable in Silent Hill (everything we see is from Travis' perspective), and I wouldn't say we know for sure Pyramid Head is based on that particular one, or even a "real" painting to begin with. Lost Memories says he's based on the executioners of Toluca Prison, it never says anything about a painting.

The painting exists. Provide evidence that it doesn't when everything else displayed in the Historical Society has a gravity of existence to it that helps to expand the setting.

Hell, if the Pyramid Head is based on the executioners of Toluca Prison, doesn't James need some way to know what they look like so he can base PH on them subconsciously? Why the fuck not a painting?

Ever play Eternal Darkness or Amnesia?
Those games have unreliable paintings as well. Silent Hill should be no exception to the rule.

Yea, both those games had paintings that mutated right before your eyes due to supernatural business. The Pyramid Head painting doesn't do that. Not ever.

My original point is all about exclusivity: it is not up to us fans to retcon the past and decide to go against the known developer's canon, which is what Nanaya feels we should do.

Tomm says we can. Owaku and Ito heavily implied that we can.

[Alex420]

The painting exists.

You're forgetting this is Silent Hill - a supernatural paranormal series which includes: ghosts, demons, monsters, objects which move by themselves, teleportation, evil red mist, disfigured shadows, flying decapitated heads, dolls which come to life, chairs which bleed, bleeding and burning walls, lumps of cat flesh which move, giant heads, sinks and bathtubs which pour blood, disturbing sounds, etc.

In at least two instances in the series, there's been unreliable paintings:
- Henry's photograph morphing into Walter Sullivan (http://www.silenthillmemories.net/sh4/h ... rtrait.jpg)
- The logic defying painting in Toluca Prison's cafeteria

The Pyramid Head paintings don't have to change in front of your eyes in order to prove they're unreliable. Silent Hill could have simply manifested both paintings (in the Gillespie House and in the Historical Society) for either Travis/James. My point is: don't assume the paintings are historical. They could be more psychological than historical.

...doesn't James need some way to know what they look like so he can base PH on them subconsciously?

No.
James doesn't need to have known about the Valtiel sect in order to have Pyramid Head manifested.

Silent Hill isn't like Ghostbusters and the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man (in which you need to have an image of a monster in your mind to have it manifested).

Instead, Silent Hill resonates with people's emotions and the town manifests these emotions and feelings into physical beings -- sometimes using figures like Bellmer Dolls, Bosch paintings, and ancient executioners as its design basis. It doesn't have to mean the victim needs to have known about the original source of inspiration.

[alone in the town]

You're forgetting this is Silent Hill - a supernatural paranormal series which includes: ghosts, demons, monsters, objects which move by themselves, teleportation, evil red mist, disfigured shadows, flying decapitated heads, dolls which come to life, chairs which bleed, bleeding and burning walls, lumps of cat flesh which move, giant heads, sinks and bathtubs which pour blood, disturbing sounds, etc.

In at least two instances in the series, there's been unreliable paintings:
- Henry's photograph morphing into Walter Sullivan (http://www.silenthillmemories.net/sh4/h ... rtrait.jpg)
- The logic defying painting in Toluca Prison's cafeteria

The Pyramid Head paintings don't have to change in front of your eyes in order to prove they're unreliable. Silent Hill could have simply manifested both paintings (in the Gillespie House and in the Historical Society) for either Travis/James. My point is: don't assume the paintings are historical. They could be more psychological than historical.

The fact that the painting is given a formal title strongly suggests that it is a real thing. The fact that Silent Hill can manifest such oddities is, by itself, never enough to prove that any object is such a manifestation.

[Alex420]

While Misty Days does have a title, the painting in Origins doesn't (which was what we were talking about before we went off on a tangent.) The paintings could be real, manifested, a hallucination, whatever. My point: you really can't be sure that either paintings are truly "historical" or "real".

Anyway, let's move on.

[alone in the town]

I know that's what your point was. My counterpoint was that you can apply that reasoning to everything in the entire series, pretty much, which makes it currency of almost no value. I'll believe the painting is a manifestation only if there's specific evidence of it.

[Soulless-Shadow]

The Pyramid Head paintings don't have to change in front of your eyes in order to prove they're unreliable. Silent Hill could have simply manifested both paintings (in the Gillespie House and in the Historical Society) for either Travis/James. My point is: don't assume the paintings are historical. They could be more psychological than historical..

It's been a while since I've played Origins, but wasn't Travis in the real world when he was in the Gillespie house? Or was there an extra area I'm forgetting about?

[KingCrimson]

Cyrus Hanley: forgive me for being pedantic, but I would like you to explain what you think it means to say Bogeyman and PH are "different entities" as opposed to both being PH. What is the actual distinction? Are we arguing over whether Bogeyman would recognize James if they passed on the street? What would you *expect to see* if they were the same being versus distinct beings?

They are both executioners with red pyramids on their heads and giant swords... and Pyramid Head isn't a singular monster anyway, given the boss fight at the end of Restless Dreams. If Bogeyman and Pyramid Head were really separate monsters (and I'm still not clear on what that even implies), wouldn't they still behave in exactly the manner as if they were the same monster--lumbering around in a dirty apron and punishing things?

[NanayaShiki]

Nanaya, you're putting words in the creators' mouths. Those links don't say "he looks like Pyramid Head" or "a creature similar to Pyramid Head", they just flat-out call him Pyramid Head.

I didn't put words in anyone's mouth and if you actually read what I said I did say that I'm sure the Homecoming developers intent was that he was the same Pyramid Head. However, just the fact that they call him Pyramid Head doesn't mean anything since they aren't calling him that in an official in-game example. That image is known as Pyramid Head, so they can simply be calling the image "Pyramid Head", since it describes the appearance of the creature. Them calling it Pyramid Head does NOT mean it's the SAME Pyramid Head.

The movie can't be argued here, because it's part of an entirely different canon, and was never meant to be in the same universe as the games. In the movie's universe, the creature Rose sees is the one and only Pyramid Head. There is no James, no Mary, no SH2 story. You really can't cross-reference two different canons to prove a point.

Again, you don't understand what I was saying. I'm saying that we call the Pyramid Head in the movie "Pyramid Head", but that doesn't mean we are implying it's the same thing from SH2. I'm saying what they call it doesn't really matter, since the name doesn't automatically mean that it's the same exact creature as the first one we saw.

Paintings can be extremely unreliable in Silent Hill (everything we see is from Travis' perspective), and I wouldn't say we know for sure Pyramid Head is based on that particular one, or even a "real" painting to begin with. Lost Memories says he's based on the executioners of Toluca Prison, it never says anything about a painting.

It's confirmed that the Pyramid Head outfit was worn by ancient executioners. There is a painting of someone wearing the Pyramid Head outfit executing people. It's found in the Historical Society and a cultist's house. We know that James visited the Historical Society three years ago. We know that three years ago the image of SH's executioners became symbolic to him and a representation of his own feelings of guilt.

It's not that hard to figure out that the painting is a real painting of an old execution and that James saw it and based Pyramid Head off of that. It's more than spelled out for us. It's downright obvious and in your face with it.

Ever play Eternal Darkness or Amnesia?
Those games have unreliable paintings as well. Silent Hill should be no exception to the rule.

Using examples from unrelated things to argue that sometimes paintings don't exist? That's such an illogical fallacy that I completely lost all desire to argue with you. But I'll at least finish this post of yours before I am done with this.

My original point is all about exclusivity: it is not up to us fans to retcon the past and decide to go against the known developer's canon, which is what Nanaya feels we should do.

If the developers intent (which again let's be honest, you do NOT know, you can only make as many educated guesses as much as I can) directly retcons the intent of the previous developers, then it becomes a question of "whose intent is more important", which means, it comes down to what you like more, and what makes more sense to you. You have no more right to tell me what I can and cannot believe than I have to tell you. If anyone needs to get over something, it's you. You need to get over the fascination you have with making everybody feel the same about this as you do.

Listen: Pyramid Head not being exclusive to James is a fact of life -- either you learn how to deal with that or you go under.

No it's not a fact of life. And Pyramid Head being exclusive to James is something that the current developers agree with. I provided quotes from Tomm Hulett on this subject previously. Go read them again. If you are so obsessed with the developers intent being the only law we have to follow and Word of God being everything, then Tomm Hulett says it plain and clear. Pyramid Head is a creature exclusive to James. YOU deal with it.

[Alex420]

It's confirmed that the Pyramid Head outfit was worn by ancient executioners.

We don't know to what extent. Lost Memories isn't specific.
By "outfit", they could simply mean the red robes, not a metal helmet.

We know that James visited the Historical Society three years ago.

Oh, really? Where?

It's not that hard to figure out that the painting is a real painting of an old execution and that James saw it and based Pyramid Head off of that. It's more than spelled out for us. It's downright obvious and in your face with it.

It's still your interpretation that the painting is real. Why would such a disturbing painting (with corpses in floating cages) even be in a museum, anyway? It's too macabre and you have no proof it's not another mental hallucination of James', such as Maria and Mary's magical letter.

Using examples from unrelated things to argue that sometimes paintings don't exist?

If you look back, I also provided 2 examples of unreliable paintings from Silent Hill.
I was trying to get you to stop taking everything in a real and literal sense.

If the developers intent (which again let's be honest, you do NOT know)

Yes, we do know. It's pretty darn obvious that they intended the Bogeyman to be Pyramid Head through concept art, programming coding, and interviews among other things.

You need to get over the fascination you have with making everybody feel the same about this as you do.

Don't judge me and I won't judge you, thanks.

it becomes a question of "whose intent is more important"

Oh, please... even TOMM KNOWS that was Pyramid Head in Homecoming.
Just because he says Pyramid Head should have been exclusive to James (which I do too), it doesn't mean we should deny that was Pyramid Head in Homecoming and in other media. If Tomm Hulett and the team of developers (Mayan Escalante, Jason Allen) refer to him as Pyramid Head, then it's a fact that is Pyramid Head. There's a difference between "exclusive" and "should have been exclusive." I'm going to put the entire team of Homecoming developers over one man's [ambiguous] intent, because I think it's the most realistic thing to do.

No it's not a fact of life.

Then explain why he appears to:
- Eric
- Tina
- Jessie
- Alex
- Adam
- Jack
- Finn
- Sara
- Katie
- Derek
- Trent
- Naomi

Explain why he's in The Arcade, Homecoming, Sinner's Reward and Book of Memories.
You can't do it with sounding the least bit convoluted.

[alone in the town]

and you have no proof it's not another mental hallucination of James', such as Maria and Mary's magical letter.

If you pick it apart to the point that the only way your theory holds water is by saying "anything is possible", or some variation thereof, your theory does not hold water at all. "Anything is possible" is about the least compelling reason to ever believe anything, and "you can't disprove me" is the intellectual currency of people who say nothing worth listening to. Don't do this. Please.

[Alex420]

You wrote The Theorist's Bible.
I said that because there's a great chance that the paintings are indeed a hallucination/manifestation.
I'm getting at Nanaya and Aura for claiming the painting is real as a fact.

I already said to move on from the topic of paintings, but other people (Nanaya) keep bringing it up. So let's move on.

[alone in the town]

It is a fact.

A picture of Pyramid Head from the Historical Society. It depicts the scene of an execution that was once carried out.

In other words, it's a real painting depicting a real event. James didn't invent it.

[Alex420]

This is what I said before:

I take it as something more along the lines of "Pyramid Head is painted in the scene of an execution. This execution with spears was a real event." To me, Misty Day is showing you where Pyramid Head's concept originated from, not that Pyramid Head was literally there, executing prisoners, 150 years or so ago.

Anyway, can we seriously move on from the topic of paintings already?