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Did innovations in combat mechanics (both melee and ranged) enhance your survival horror experience?
Yes. 34%  34%  [ 14 ]
No. 54%  54%  [ 22 ]
Unsure. 12%  12%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 41
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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Did innovations in combat mechanics enhance your experie
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
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Silent Fantasy wrote:
I know it's possible to be good with some of the other weapons, but it doesn't change the fact that the other weapons feel more clunky and are more irritating anyway due to the game having an irritating and repetitious battle system to begin with.

Oh, and by "irritating" I don't mean hard. The game is far from hard if you just watch the enemies easily recognized movement patterns to dodge attacks. Any difficulty the game has is artificial, which makes many moments feel cheap. Plus enemies take way too long to kill, which really drags the game on with as many enemies you run into at times (thank god for laser gun unlock.)


I totally agree with you. "Irritating" is a good word for this game's combat system. It is repetitive, and not just because the game encourages you to use the knife and throw away all the other melee weapons. Also because the one dial-a-combo you get feels the same regardless of what weapon you're using, and because enemies have so much HP that combat becomes a chore of simply dodging and using your dial-a-combo repeatedly, or just spamming your combo repeatedly.

This game seriously has the worst designed combat in the series. I don't understand how anyone can say any different.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Did innovations in combat mechanics enhance your experie

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Because the game actually provides a sense of challenge the other games lack since you could mow down anything in your way with the amount of ammo you had. Melee combat felt natural instead of stiff.

And no, the game doesn't encourage you to use the knife considering all the other weapons available. The problem is most Silent Hill fans want an easy, accessible game that allows them to win with minimal effort and move on so they can watch the next custcene, read the next memo, or stare at the next subtext laden wall. They complain anytime the game pushes some sort of challenge on them. The only exception to this being puzzles and that's primarily because they fit into the story. And we all know how narrative obsessed the fandom because they will advocate dumbing the game if it means making getting to the storyline elements more accessible to them.

We can't ever have fleshed out and evolved game mechanics or new ideas because any type ofhalf complicated gameplay causes people to complain about immersion. That's my biggest problem with the Silent Hill fandom.


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Gravedigger
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I' m one of the guys who voted for gameplay over story in your other thread (it was yours right ?) so hopefully you won' t label me in a neat little box, but I agree with Tillerman, Homecoming' s combat was horrendous. As for Shattered Memories, lol.

I always stocked up ammo in the old games, keeping it mostly for bosses, I' m cheap like that. In retrospect SH2, and maybe SH3, did give you enough ammo to paint the town red, but not SH1 and certainly not SH4.

I voted nope on this one. Not that I' m allergic to innovations (The Last Of Us certainly did it right), I m just allergic to change for the sake of change.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
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stonecoldsteveurkel wrote:
Because the game actually provides a sense of challenge the other games lack since you could mow down anything in your way with the amount of ammo you had. Melee combat felt natural instead of stiff.


I don't think Homecoming's combat feels any more "natural." Weapons move faster, if that's what you mean by "less stiff," but that's not necessarily more realistic, nor is it better from a gameplay perspective. I actually think Silent Hill 2 has deeper gameplay... take the Great Knife weapon, for example. That weapon, while certain very "stiff," actually provides an entirely different playstyle for the game. It's a very powerful weapon, but the incredibly slow speed makes it very hard to use. Even so, it can be very effective when used properly. Notice that Homecoming doesn't have anything close to this. The melee weapons largely all feel the same thanks to the similar dial-a-combos, and the only weapon that stands out is the knife thanks to it's overwhelming power.

Homecoming is also not a particularly challenging game, again thanks to the knife. The bosses are the only place where it is challenging, but they also feel a bit frustrating because the window for dodging isn't as intuitive as it should be. Even so, I wouldn't call Homecoming the most challenging game in the series. It's pretty in line with SH3 and 4. In fact, SH3 is probably the most challenging thanks to it's extreme difficulty options, and I think SH3 has the best overall combat in the series as well.

stonecoldsteveurkel wrote:
And no, the game doesn't encourage you to use the knife considering all the other weapons available.


The amount of other weapons available has nothing to do with it. The problem is that the knife is dramatically overpowered compared to everything else. It's a huge balance problem. This is also a problem in other SH games, the ER Hammer in SH1 comes to mind, but I think Homecoming may actually have the worst weapon balance in the series and that's saying a lot.

stonecoldsteveurkel wrote:
We can't ever have fleshed out and evolved game mechanics or new ideas because any type ofhalf complicated gameplay causes people to complain about immersion. That's my biggest problem with the Silent Hill fandom.


Don't use the term "evolution" to describe Homecoming's combat mechanics. It's a lateral move at best, but quite frankly I'd consider an inferior downgrade in combat mechanics. They simply replaced the block button with a dodge button, beefed up enemy HP, and made every weapon have an auto-combo. The combat system barely has any depth, it's quite imbalanced, and frankly it feels obnoxiously repetitive. Where's the "innovation?"

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Did innovations in combat mechanics enhance your experie
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2006
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stonecoldsteveurkel wrote:
Because the game actually provides a sense of challenge the other games lack since you could mow down anything in your way with the amount of ammo you had. Melee combat felt natural instead of stiff.

They complain anytime the game pushes some sort of challenge on them. The only exception to this being puzzles and that's primarily because they fit into the story. And we all know how narrative obsessed the fandom because they will advocate dumbing the game if it means making getting to the storyline elements more accessible to them.


Being a little general there, ain't you? And Jesus...really? Provides more challenge? I beat Homecoming on Hard without realizing it. The only thing it does is make you take more damage and the enemies have more health, which, if using the knife and knowing how to dodge (which isn't hard to do) you will barely notice. Take SH3 or even SH2, the easiest of the older games and play those on hard. I can barely do it, while I didn't even realize I done it on Homecoming til I beat it and unlockable the achievement.
Now, I know thats on hard, but it says something if you never get hit playing on hard or normal, which to me makes an easy game. I am not even a good action gamer, because I can barely beat more than normal on games like DMC or God of War, so yeah.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Did innovations in combat mechanics enhance your experie

Missing since: 20 Oct 2012
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SH2 hard? I don't see how. Monsters are incredibly slow and easily dodged in that game. If for some reason you need to kill them you're provided a shitload of ammo to mow them down. The only monster that presents a challenge in that game is the Abstract Daddy.

As for SH3, it's certainly harder but it has more to do with the monster design and level design than the combat mechanics themselves. SH3's monsters have more varied attacks and more direct confrontations than those in SH2. But the game mechanics aren't too different from SH2. Stick to the same tactics and you should be fine. You just have to be a bit more alert than in SH2 since not all the monsters are slowass bags of flesh like in SH2.

Now I'm not saying Homecoming is incredibly difficult on a scale like Dante Must Die. But it's certainly an upgrade over previous games:
A. You can't Rambo through everything with a gun like you could in SH1-3. The ammunition cap was a great idea.
B. Timing is much more crucial this time around which I liked. Dodging was the best part. It's easy enough to pull off if you pay attention, but not cheap to the point where you can hammer on the button constantly to get out of a hairy situation.

It really shines in the boss fights. After playing through the boss fights in the older games, there's really no comparison. Sure, the fighting mechanics aren't perfect, but they're a massive upgrade over the originals and make the game so much more fun.

But the thing is Homecoming isn't the only game to have received complaints about changing the combat or gameplay. We've seen the same with SH4, Origins, Shattered Memories, Book of Memories, and Downpour. It seems the only time people don't complain about it is when it's the same thing over and over like SH1-3. There's just no winning when it comes to most of the Silent Hill fans. They represent everything I dislike about modern gaming. They want story and atmosphere over gameplay and any attempt to bring the latter more to the forefront is met with scorn. We've seen enough franchises get dumbed down in an attempt to be more quote unquote story driven and accessible this generation.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Did innovations in combat mechanics enhance your experie
     
         
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2006
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stonecoldsteveurkel wrote:
SH2 hard? I don't see how. Monsters are incredibly slow and easily dodged in that game. If for some reason you need to kill them you're provided a shitload of ammo to mow them down. The only monster that presents a challenge in that game is the Abstract Daddy.


SH2 hard on HARD, dude. Also, you can run from nearly every enemy in Homecoming, too. They generally do not chase much further than any enemies in SH2 and 3 and are actually slower than a few enemies that will chase you down forever in SH1. Plus, you don't need ammo in Homecoming when you have the knife, so..yeah. -_-


Quote:
As for SH3, it's certainly harder but it has more to do with the monster design and level design than the combat mechanics themselves. SH3's monsters have more varied attacks and more direct confrontations than those in SH2. But the game mechanics aren't too different from SH2. Stick to the same tactics and you should be fine. You just have to be a bit more alert than in SH2 since not all the monsters are slowass bags of flesh like in SH2.

Level design and the way monsters act is a huge part of what can make a game difficult or not. The enemies in Homecoming are slow and predictable with what attack they are going to use, so you then press a button to not get hit and knife them. Easy and never changes throughout the game. Also, no. SH3 on HARD..again, as I said.. you are not going to be just gunning anything down and running past them is generally not smart. You could say this about playing on Normal too. It's all about what you have and how much of it you have left than pushing buttons to not get hit ever and knifing them.
Homecoming on Hrd is a joke compared to it, unless you want to use Bullet Adjust or the Infinite Machine GUn, but even then it houses more difficulty than Homecoming does.

Quote:
Now I'm not saying Homecoming is incredibly difficult on a scale like Dante Must Die. But it's certainly an upgrade over previous games:
A. You can't Rambo through everything with a gun like you could in SH1-3. The ammunition cap was a great idea.
B. Timing is much more crucial this time around which I liked. Dodging was the best part. It's easy enough to pull off if you pay attention, but not cheap to the point where you can hammer on the button constantly to get out of a hairy situation.


No, it's much easier than every game besides SH2 (well, besides some places on Hard anyway).

A: You're right. You just Rambo everything with a knife that doesn't rely on ammo.

B: The timing is predictable and turns it into a rhythm game more than anything else. It was dull and could have been implemented much better.
But you are right about hammering on one button to get out of everything. You just hammer two.

Quote:
It really shines in the boss fights. After playing through the boss fights in the older games, there's really no comparison. Sure, the fighting mechanics aren't perfect, but they're a massive upgrade over the originals and make the game so much more fun.


No, they actually ruin the game and the boss fights were good, but not because of the combat system. The past games didn't have perfect combat, but those games were not built for combat and didn't focus on it.
And yes, you can have a game with minor combat or no combat at all.

Quote:
But the thing is Homecoming isn't the only game to have received complaints about changing the combat or gameplay. We've seen the same with SH4, Origins, Shattered Memories, Book of Memories, and Downpour. It seems the only time people don't complain about it is when it's the same thing over and over like SH1-3. There's just no winning when it comes to most of the Silent Hill fans. They represent everything I dislike about modern gaming. They want story and atmosphere over gameplay and any attempt to bring the latter more to the forefront is met with scorn. We've seen enough franchises get dumbed down in an attempt to be more quote unquote story driven and accessible this generation.


No, people want good gameplay as well. Just because story is now a thing more than it every has been, gameplay is still always the deciding factor for whether many will finish a game or every touch it again if they do beat it. When it comes to Silent Hill, most people want a balance and will not deal with incredibly bad gameplay for a rich story no matter what they say.
Also, most franchises get dumbed down due to complaints in what they already had or time constraints/budget. Not because of story. Most games only have enough story to excuse whatever it is they want you to be doing.

And my god dude, many complained about many things to those games and this one is not being unfairly picked on for no reason, it just happens to be the worst of the bunch for many. Change isn't the issue so much as messy change that failed to do what it was made to do.

If you think Homecoming was innovative and were the series needs to go, then you are speaking for the wrong series and probably have low standards anyway.

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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Did innovations in combat mechanics enhance your experie

Missing since: 20 Oct 2012
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You don't have to use the knife either. Dispatching enemies with the pipe, axe, etc. isn't any more difficult. They're just slower because, well, they're heavier weapons.

And I've played SH2 on Hard. It's not difficult at all unless maybe if you're playing it for the first time. The monsters in SH2 can give chase, yes, but it means nothing since they're so slow. It's not like having the Rompers, the dogs, Slurpers, Pendulums, or Air Screamers after you. The only difficult parts are dealing with the Abstract Daddies, since they cause heavy damage on Hard, and the Eddie boss fight.

Most of the monsters in Homecoming are slow, yes, but it's like SH3 where you're outdoors less and usually fighting them in confined areas. On top of that, the game doesn't allow you to blow them all away with 500 rounds of ammunition so melee is encouraged.

I didn't say Homecoming was this incredibly innovative game and specifically where the series needed to go. And even if I did, that wouldn't make you some super classy, elite high standard holding person just because you didn't like the combat. That's just silly.

I merely stated that it brought more to the table in terms of fighting mechanics than the older games. I already said it earlier it wasn't perfect. The game is still glitchy and pulling off finishing moves sometimes doesn't register. It still could have used some better ideas. Like Downpour utilizes weapon degradation, guarding, and the one weapon limit.

I think combining some ideas from both games would make for even better mechanics.

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. No matter what ideas any developer bring to the table in regards to gameplay, fans are going to complain how the gameplay is bad, immersion, immersion, and more immersion. It's why I can't really blame anyone who doesn't want to work on the series and just lets it fade into obscurity.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2006
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I see nothing wrong with change and I do not actually even hate the game, but I can say the worst aspect of it is doing all of that fighting again (on repeat playthroughs) due to how dull it is for reasons I and many others have stated already.
It seems as if people do not like it for how lackluster it is rather than "Oh no! It's different and all we want is old Silent Hill!" crap that so far you are alone in bringing up in this thread for the most part. Everyone else has given valid reason for not liking the system and saying "Because it's better than the older games" really isn't saying much, but at least the older games didn't -

1: Make nearly every fight take longer than it needed to.

2: Make you do said fights much more often than needed.

The focus was elsewhere and so was the gamers attention, as the games were made to do.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
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stonecoldsteveurkel wrote:
There's just no winning when it comes to most of the Silent Hill fans. They represent everything I dislike about modern gaming. They want story and atmosphere over gameplay and any attempt to bring the latter more to the forefront is met with scorn. We've seen enough franchises get dumbed down in an attempt to be more quote unquote story driven and accessible this generation.


Well, you represent everything I hate about people with incoherent arguments. I've explained to you over and over why Homecoming brings absolutely NOTHING interesting gameplay-wise to Silent Hill. But you keep telling this same old story about how Silent Hill fans don't want to accept change, and want to keep the series dumbed down for the sake of immersion. Which is silly because if anything Homecoming's combat system is the one that's dumbed down.

It's one thing if you want to disagree with me about Homecoming's combat system being terribly designed. But it's rude to make up your own imaginary reasons for why I'm disagreeing. As I keep telling you over and over, I think Homecoming's combat system has no depth. It's obnoxiously repetitive, unbalanced, and just plain derivative. From a design perspective, it's completely uninteresting. It's not even all that challenging. Now if you want to disagree with all those things, fine... but stop pretending like I'm saying something completely different.

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Subway Guard
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It's weird. When the game first released, I remember many fans here complaining about the game being too hard due to the gameplay/combat, and not enjoying Homecoming due to that (and for other story related reasons). Now its a case of the game being "too easy" and "dull to play" which makes the combat suck.. wtf? I kind of agree with Stonecold, the fanbase here (not singling anyone out) is so hard to impress that developers are damned either way.

I won't lie, I definitely fall into that boat as well when it comes to gameplay... I absolutely loved Homecoming's gameplay, but hated Downpour's, as I felt it was a huge step backwards. I felt that Homecoming's combat was fun for those who liked combat in their SH games, but if you somehow found it difficult, "dull," or just didn't care for it, you were given tools to evade combat almost altogether (like dodging and rolling). Downpour's gameplay disappointed me as I felt the weapon breaking system was poorly done (weapons broke too easily), and melee combat was unresponsive and sluggish imo. You also lost the ability to dodge/evade attacks and could only block, which also caused damage to your weapons, which is really,really stupid.

As far as the first 4 games, SH4 had the worst mechanics, but even that was better than what Downpour offered. SH's gameplay is so dated, but it fit really well for the game. SH2&3 at the time were OK, but after playing them both recently, they are clunky/slow as hell. There's a reason why there's an insane amount of ammo laying around, and that's to deter you from melee combat.


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