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SHH Cult Subscriber
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Missing since: 26 Oct 2006
Notes left: 921
Last seen at: Southern WI
It makes sense..although, wouldn't Angela be less terrified if she was seeing a representation of her father's death? Also, I've never really been able to see two figures on that bed frame.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 11 Dec 2006
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I think she'd be more terrified because it reminds her of what she did, and at the same time of what he did to her. He's dead but not going away.

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Wait wHile thEse Rats End themselves And tomoRrow wE maY hOld oUr hands
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My Bestsellers Clerk
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Missing since: 13 Nov 2005
Notes left: 429
Last seen at: Teen Town
Robert wrote:
FBA 6100 wrote:
>Where have I read this before?

Well, a good guess might lead you to believe it was in Silent Hill 2.

I know that. Where in Silent Hill 2 have I read this?


Thank god.

The newspaper hallway before you fight the Thomas monster.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2006
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Last seen at: Katz Street
maybe angela was the one on top and the father on bottom.she coulda jumped on him from the back and they could have tumbled on the bed when she reached around and stabbed him.(unlikly,but so is alot of stuff in silent hill)

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WARNING: Some Parts of Reality May Seem Violent or Cruel.


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Gravedigger
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Missing since: 21 Dec 2005
Notes left: 454
Last seen at: NYC
If the creature is supposed to be a depiction of Angela stabbing her father to death, then why don't we see an arm being raised repeatedly in a stabbing motion? No one lies still and flat on top of a person if they're stabbing them to death, they straddle them upright and start swinging.

Also, look at the design of the creature.

The 'hands' of the being on top are protruding through the doorframe and acting as front legs, thus making it completely impossible for the stabbing motion to even happen. Arms and legs going through the door like that with no way of removing them are a representation of complete domination of the person underneath - obviously Angela.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
Notes left: 2368
Knick Knack wrote:
If the creature is supposed to be a depiction of Angela stabbing her father to death, then why don't we see an arm being raised repeatedly in a stabbing motion? No one lies still and flat on top of a person if they're stabbing them to death, they straddle them upright and start swinging.

What you are looking at is a 'static' picture, one that was drawn to give an overall depiction of a monster. When you actually fight the monster, it makes all sorts of movement. In fact, when James finally kills the monster in the labyrinth, that's when its movements become very erratic.

Quote:
The 'hands' of the being on top are protruding through the doorframe and acting as front legs, thus making it completely impossible for the stabbing motion to even happen. Arms and legs going through the door like that with no way of removing them are a representation of complete domination of the person underneath - obviously Angela.

So you're telling me that Angela's sense of "ideal father" is one who is molesting her? Or are you saying that the editors were being sarcastic as well? Neither answers make any sense to me.


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Gravedigger
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Missing since: 21 Dec 2005
Notes left: 454
Last seen at: NYC
I think the word 'ideal' showing up is either sarcasm or a case of Engrish. The term 'Ideal Father' itself is strange as a label for this thing.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
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Knick Knack wrote:
I think the word 'ideal' showing up is either sarcasm or a case of Engrish. The term 'Ideal Father' itself is strange as a label for this thing.

'Ideal' isn't Engrish because it was originally written in Japanese. [Risoutekina chichioya]. Wallofdeath translated the Japanese term into English. If anything, "abstract daddy" is the one that could be Engrish.

I don't agree that it was sarcasm. Non-English speakers would simply not understand the sarcasm. The explanation was there to define the term of "abstract daddy" to non-English speakers. We have the luxury to think it was sarcasm because we know what "abstract daddy" means. The audience that this book was written for do not. Imagine if you had to look up a dictionary for a word you didn't know. Would you be able to tell if the definition was a case of 'sarcasm'? And if it were sarcasm, would you be able to tell the difference?

I'm okay with people believing what they choose to believe. I just don't think "ideal father" makes sense in the conventional belief surrounding the monster.


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 18 Dec 2006
Notes left: 708
Probably stretching here, but maybe ideal has some connection to what her mother said to her? Her mother said she deserved what she got, and Angela somehow believes it. Maybe to Angela an ideal father is a father who gives someone what they deserve.

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I once was lost, but am now profound.


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Gravedigger
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Missing since: 21 Dec 2005
Notes left: 454
Last seen at: NYC
Burning Man wrote:
What you are looking at is a 'static' picture, one that was drawn to give an overall depiction of a monster. When you actually fight the monster, it makes all sorts of movement. In fact, when James finally kills the monster in the labyrinth, that's when its movements become very erratic.


Erratic movement or not, there still is no violent upright stabbing motion at any point. The top figure is flat on top of the bottom figure the entire time, with the exception of when it rears back the moment before the fight as it rises to face James. It doesn't support the whole stabbing idea.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
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Knick Knack wrote:
Erratic movement or not, there still is no violent upright stabbing motion at any point. The top figure is flat on top of the bottom figure the entire time, with the exception of when it rears back the moment before the fight as it rises to face James. It doesn't support the whole stabbing idea.

I don't know about that. With the same logic, I can say that there isn't any violent 'thrusting' movement either. How can you say that the monster shows Thomas molesting Angela then? Just because one figure is on top of another? It's not so obvious, in my opinion.


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Gravedigger
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Missing since: 21 Dec 2005
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Last seen at: NYC
If we've got two figures laying flat and a choice between either rape or stabbing going on, present motion or not, it makes more sense for the former to be the case simply because of 1) the lack of any indication that murder is what's going on and 2) the fact that the entire room the monster is in is about sex. The scarred walls and the garbage on the roof of the room are all an indication of her feelings of how he hurt her and left his filth inside of her. The rusty thrusting metal cans also aim at the 'fucking' idea. A stabbing would be pretty out of place.


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Moderator
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Missing since: 15 Apr 2004
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Last seen at: In the anals of forum history
Quote:
How can you say that the monster shows Thomas molesting Angela then? Just because one figure is on top of another?


Well, given the context, information, and allusions provided in the game, there are only so many activities this could signify, and I don't think it's a happy childhood memory of a piggyback ride.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
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Knick Knack wrote:
1) the lack of any indication that murder is what's going on

Like I said earlier, same logic can be applied to molestation. You're looking at a monster here. In fact, I think you're forgetting about the bloody newspaper found just outside the hallway. There is an indication of murder alright. A prelude, of sorts.

Quote:
2) the fact that the entire room the monster is in is about sex.

Entirely up to interpretation, of course. I can probably agree that some of her emotional scars were indeed manifested in the creation of the monster, but I don't see why it's just about her abuse. In fact, if the room is supposed to remind Angela of the abuse, then it would make sense that she would want to kill her father for all the wrong-doing that he did.

Quote:
The scarred walls and the garbage on the roof of the room are all an indication of her feelings of how he hurt her and left his filth inside of her.

Which reminds her of her hate toward her 'daddy.' And, yes, there is indication that she hates him to the point that she wants to kill him. I mean, she was pretty aggressive with that TV.

But, again, we're talking about interpretations here. Scarred walls and garbage on the roof may be an indication of what Angela thinks of herself.

alone in the town wrote:
Well, given the context, information, and allusions provided in the game, there are only so many activities this could signify, and I don't think it's a happy childhood memory of a piggyback ride.

Yeah, I never said it was that. All I'm saying is that the monster is more of an indication of her guilt rather than her emotional scars due to abuse.

I'm all for alternate interpretations. I really am. But I originally wrote this theory because of what the monsters means: "ideal father." All of the alternate views I've read up to now simply dismisses the meaning as having any sort of significance. 'Sarcasm?' 'Engrish?' I mean, come on.

The only reasonable alternate explanation came from Nillin, but since Silent Hill Chronicles specifically states that it's a symbol of Angela's past, I'm not sure it's about her believing that she "deserved it."


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Gravedigger
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Missing since: 21 Dec 2005
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Last seen at: NYC
The molestation fits with the theme of pretty much everything in her reality. Saying that she was stabbing him is seriously reaching because there are no hints at such a thing going on anywhere aside from this mistranslated name, whereas there are signs for it being rape all over the place.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
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Knick Knack wrote:
The molestation fits with the theme of pretty much everything in her reality.

I'm not so sure anymore...

Quote:
Saying that she was stabbing him i seriously reaching because there are no hints at such a thing going on anywhere aside from this mistranslated name, whereas there are signs for it being rape all over the place.

First, yes, there is a hint. The newspaper explaining the death of Thomas is just outside the hallway. Unlike the abstract environments where any sorts of interpretation can be possible, this newspaper reads word-for-word. Newspapers of today's date is pasted all over the hallway. The newspaper doesn't explain Angela's abuse. It's more of an indication of why Silent Hill decided to call her.

Second, "ideal father" is not a mistranslated name. Sorry, but it just isn't.


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Gravedigger
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Missing since: 21 Dec 2005
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Last seen at: NYC
It explained why the town called her. I don't see how it hints at the monster being a representation of murder, especially when what's going on in the creature's form doesn't even slightly resemble the method of murder.
Also, what exactly is making you not so sure. There's plenty that indicates negative feelings on sex and molestation were a massive part of her subconscious(and thus, her reality). The uterus room, the figures of women with bleeding crotches on either side of the walls of the burning stairs, the 'or you could just force me' line, how the Doorman jumped from Angela's to James' reality because of how the two people both linked it to sex, just to name a few.

(Also, I wasn't referring to 'Ideal Father' being a mistranslation. What I meant was that apparently, if that is the monster's real name, then Abstract Daddy is the mistranslation here.)


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SHH Cult Subscriber
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Missing since: 26 Oct 2006
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Last seen at: Southern WI
You know, I think we're at a point here where everyone can take their own interpretations. We have in-game signs and "evidence," the description of it in the book, and the somewhat hard to discern shape of the monster itself. Other than that, it's mostly conjecture.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 05 Feb 2005
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Pardon my interjecting but is it not possible that it could be both interpretations?

The pushing of the valves can indicate both the sexual interpretation and the force of killing someone.

As for the monster.
I feel like it can harbor both interpretations.
I think that it could be true that Angela was sexually mollested and abused by her father and that the "ideal" way of doing with this father could be to kill this father. That part of the figure that is shown above and moving up and down, whether the killer or raper is penetrating with something. The figure on the bottom is definitely dominated and trapped. Can't it represent both events in a way? Both people experience getting oppressed and forced into a very killing submission.

When James sees his monsters he doesn't seem to give us the clue that he sees what they represent, he doesn't immediately. There's always a blur. I believe both of these interpretations can be melded just as the figures of Francis Bacon's paintings are capable of many different movements, actions and different views of them physically and emotionally.

Sorry if I don't make sense or I didn't read properly... that tends to happen.

_________________
...that all my life I've been rushing up and down hills, leaping rivers, crashing over obstacles,
never dreaming that one day that beautiful thing in flight would land on this earth and into my arms


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Gravedigger
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Missing since: 21 Dec 2005
Notes left: 454
Last seen at: NYC
I suppose taking it both ways works, now that you mention it. The two explanations can both fit in with the overall themes present in the people and the entire game as a whole.


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