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Gravedigger
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Missing since: 04 Mar 2007
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The baseline would be the abstract fears the people have. Angela fears going to hell and domination by men. Eddie fears people rejecting him and making fun of him. James fears the truth about what he did to Mary.

This explains why Laura does not feel threatened in Silent Hill: she has no fears. She's not afraid of big men, the dark, abandoned places, solitary trips to a town. Arguably the reason why the town would be empty for her is because the only thing she fears is being abandoned.

Silent Hill takes the minds of the people and the history of itself and fleshes out the baseline. But it's not to say ALL of Silent Hill is fabricated to solely suit the people there. Parts of the Toluca Prison show as much. Ernest Baldwin does too. Silent Hill is an entity in and of itself, outside of the people's mind. ("Entity doesn't imply sentience, btw. I'm just using the term to refer to it as a thing in and of itself.")

Summarized: if a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

For the sake of this argument, let's just say yes. The sound exists outside of the necessity of something being there to hear it. The town also exists outside of the minds of the people that visit it.

After all, that's why some of the monsters take on the shapes of "monsters" that are relevant to the history of the town.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
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Actually, that's not true, is it? I haven't played Born from a Wish in a while but don't they only communicate through the door? He hears her voice, but at the end of the boss battle you hear her voice too and her form doesn't change. Even when she talks to someone else besides James, they don't see her. If I remember correctly, I mean.

There's nothing to prove Ernest wasn't really there, but there's not a lot to suggest he was, that's all I'm saying.


Yes, but he still perceived her as a sane, "normalish" person who could knock on a door, enter buildings, and behave as a normal person, which "Monster Maria", as a floating, upside-down, caged hell-bitch can't exactly do. Occam's Razor tells us that to Ernest, Maria is exactly as we see her.

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As to Maria gathering the items needed for the Rebirth ending....you ever wonder how the weird little clues and items that you need to use to get through the game conveniently wind up right where you can find, pick up, and use them? Maybe we're getting a little glimpse into how that happens. The town was catering to James twisted memories, repressed emotions and desires. All he had to do was chose which one he wanted, and the town would provide. Hence the different endings. Since one of the things he wanted was to resurrect Mary, there had to be something readily available that would do that.


Yea, so? Laura's there to lead James to the Leave ending and help him confront the truth, but that doesn't mean she's a construct. James's Otherworld just overlapped with hers to allow interaction; same with Ernest.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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My Bestsellers Clerk
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Missing since: 24 Apr 2004
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wow, you found something there.

Good job.

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Goodbye Silent HIll!
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Rosewater Park Attendant
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Missing since: 12 Jan 2008
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I'm not sure Laura is entirely fearless... we all have things we're afraid of. I think that there is another explanation as to why she doesn't see Silent Hill the way the others do.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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It's been mentioned in the thread before, Oddish, if you care to look back and read. Laura is afraid of being alone.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
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Missing since: 12 Jan 2008
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OK, I know that, of course. But I maintain that the fact that Laura saw Silent Hill differently from the other three was a result of the fact that her initial issues were different: she was lonely but essentially innocent, they were guilty of real (or, in Angela's case, imagined) crimes. It wasn't because the only thing that could scare her was being alone. I expect that if she had seen one of those patient monsters, she'd have run away screaming.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 07 Apr 2007
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Yes, but he still perceived her as a sane, "normalish" person who could knock on a door, enter buildings, and behave as a normal person, which "Monster Maria", as a floating, upside-down, caged hell-bitch can't exactly do. Occam's Razor tells us that to Ernest, Maria is exactly as we see her.


Yeah, but we still don't have that much proof that he was there at all. All of it could be just the town's version of 'labor pains' as it gives birth to Maria.

Also, what's Occam's Razor? I know I've heard that before but I can't remember what it means. And how does it apply to your argument?


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
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Yeah, but we still don't have that much proof that he was there at all. All of it could be just the town's version of 'labor pains' as it gives birth to Maria.

Also, what's Occam's Razor? I know I've heard that before but I can't remember what it means. And how does it apply to your argument?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occams_Razor

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Ernest is some sort of projection, and everything leads us to him being a literal ghost. Occam's Razor is on my side.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Last edited by AuraTwilight on 10 Feb 2008, edited 1 time in total.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 07 Apr 2007
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I just think there's not enough evidence to prove things one way or another. I guess it's just preference. I mean, I personally think it's suspicious that they make a point of having Angela call the thing 'Daddy' and that they have a woman following you around who doesn't speak to any other living person and at the end of the game (depending on your ending) turns into a freaky ass monster.

Also, I think it's delightfully ironic somebody's bringing up this Occam's Razor (Now that I remember what the hell it is. Thank you for the link to the explanation by the way) in a discussion forum about an entry in the Silent Hill series.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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I just think there's not enough evidence to prove things one way or another. I guess it's just preference. I mean, I personally think it's suspicious that they make a point of having Angela call the thing 'Daddy' and that they have a woman following you around who doesn't speak to any other living person and at the end of the game (depending on your ending) turns into a freaky ass monster.


It'd be one thing if the person talking to Ernest was an actual person. Delusions can't be deluded. Furthermore, nothing calls Ernest's nature of existence into question, like with Daddy or Maria. Who would be projecting him?

Quote:
Also, I think it's delightfully ironic somebody's bringing up this Occam's Razor (Now that I remember what the hell it is. Thank you for the link to the explanation by the way) in a discussion forum about an entry in the Silent Hill series.


Even Silent Hill is bound by logic, I'm fucking sick of people using this cop-out when their shit gets ruined.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 20 Jul 2005
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But Occam's Razor's too practical--let's compare these two scenarios: 1) Angela was sexually abused and 2) Angela was not sexually abused. Let's say there are more things to be assumed for scenario 1) than 2), would you say that 1) is the truth, the only thing worth defending your opinion for?

>Even Silent Hill is bound by logic, I'm fucking sick of people using this cop-out when their shit gets ruined.

Watch your language.
Logic is important, but Occam's Razor isn't logical, it's more like favoring the most plausible while disregarding the rest. Anyway, I'm not defending Self-Seeker's post, just disagreeing the application of Occam's Razor here.

On Topic:

I've reread the whole thread and two questions popped up:

1) Did Angela want redemption?
2) Angela said that her mother told her she "deserved it" -- what did she do that her mother felt like Angela deserved a punishment?

"I've been bad..." could back that Angela, like her mother, thinks that she deserves what(ever) she has done. Thus, it could be possible that she does not want redemption because she believes every bad things' her fault. This way, the monster is ideal for preventing Angela from getting a redemption--redemption in this case is Angela's ability to forget/move on from her traumatic experience.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
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But Occam's Razor's too practical--let's compare these two scenarios: 1) Angela was sexually abused and 2) Angela was not sexually abused. Let's say there are more things to be assumed for scenario 1) than 2), would you say that 1) is the truth, the only thing worth defending your opinion for?


But that's not the same thing, as the two scenarios aren't on equal footing, regardless of assumptions that need to be made.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Last edited by AuraTwilight on 11 Feb 2008, edited 1 time in total.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 20 Jul 2005
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That wasn't the best example but you know what I'm trying to get to--I don't think Occam's Razor should be entirely accounted for a debate because it is just one deduction method--judging from what I've read on the link you provided.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 05 Feb 2008
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Last seen at: Keyport, N.J.
Okay. Wow. Interesting thread. First off, let me start by saying that I totally agree with Knick Knack. The Abstract Daddy/Ideal Father monster is obviously a depiction of Angela's rape at the hands of Thomas. I read the description of the creature in 'Lost Memories', and, as previously posted, it indicates this. Burning Man, your theory was interesting for a passing second, but no more so. As for the creature being similar to Maria, I see nothing in the game that even slightly suggests this. Maria was a (oddly sentient) delusion created by James by his wish to see Mary again and his aversion of the truth of what he did to her. It is rather strange that Laura was unable to see her and yet Ernest percieves her as a normal person(if, in fact, Laura WAS able to see her as James did, perhaps she would have thought that her search was over, and that she had found Mary in some way or form). As for Ernest being a real person who is now dead and therefor lacking physical substance(existing only in the form of a lingering consciousness bound to his home by the tradgedy of what occured there), the entire "Born From A Wish" scenario supports this. Although one thing does seem odd: if he is devoid of physical substance, how does he intend to perform the ceremony to ressurrect his dead daughter? Can he perhaps achieve this by simply having all of the items in one place and projecting his will to attain the desired result?
Also, if Amy were reborn, Ernest would still be a spirit. So his daughter would be unable to see or interact with him in a physical sense. Is his wish merely to see her alive once again, which would obliterate the finality of the horrible tradgedy which befell her, thereby (perhaps) releasing him from his present state and allowing him to finally move on? This probably should be in another thread...

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11379
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
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That wasn't the best example but you know what I'm trying to get to--I don't think Occam's Razor should be entirely accounted for a debate because it is just one deduction method--judging from what I've read on the link you provided.


I'm not saying it shouldeither, but it certainly narrows the grid. Without a single shred of evidence for "Ernest is a delusion", why should it be taken into account versus "Ernest isa ghost"?

Quote:
As for the creature being similar to Maria, I see nothing in the game that even slightly suggests this. Maria was a (oddly sentient) delusion created by James by his wish to see Mary again and his aversion of the truth of what he did to her. It is rather strange that Laura was unable to see her and yet Ernest percieves her as a normal person(if, in fact, Laura WAS able to see her as James did, perhaps she would have thought that her search was over, and that she had found Mary in some way or form).


Maria and Daddy could be similar entities, as I think it's quite obvious that Angela sees a human, not a monster. Furthermore, Ernest is a ghost, so he could be playing by different rules.

Quote:
As for Ernest being a real person who is now dead and therefor lacking physical substance(existing only in the form of a lingering consciousness bound to his home by the tradgedy of what occured there), the entire "Born From A Wish" scenario supports this. Although one thing does seem odd: if he is devoid of physical substance, how does he intend to perform the ceremony to ressurrect his dead daughter? Can he perhaps achieve this by simply having all of the items in one place and projecting his will to attain the desired result?
Also, if Amy were reborn, Ernest would still be a spirit. So his daughter would be unable to see or interact with him in a physical sense. Is his wish merely to see her alive once again, which would obliterate the finality of the horrible tradgedy which befell her, thereby (perhaps) releasing him from his present state and allowing him to finally move on? This probably should be in another thread...


He does lament that he can't perform the ritual anymore, so maybe he was just completing as many steps as he could out of blind hope?

If he hypothetically could complete it, however, and Amy was brought back, I don't see why she couldn't repeat the ritual on her father.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 07 Apr 2007
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Maria and Daddy could be similar entities, as I think it's quite obvious that Angela sees a human, not a monster. Furthermore, Ernest is a ghost, so he could be playing by different rule.



Wait, I thought you disagreed with that idea. Did you?

And when I said that thing about O's Razor what I meant was it was ironic because this forum wouldn't exist if we took the most simple conclusion when trying to unravel the secrets of Silent Hill. There would be no need for all this discussion; in general, anyway. Just want to make that clear before somebody shoots me or something.

Also what I meant by Ernest being a delusion is that he's about as real as all the monsters running around which is to say, not very. In the sense that they do not exist outside of /Fog/Silent Hill or /OtherWorld/Silent Hill. Just want to make that clear, as well.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Wait, I thought you disagreed with that idea. Did you?


I agree they're not exactly the same, but they do indeed share properties; that can't be denied.

Quote:
And when I said that thing about O's Razor what I meant was it was ironic because this forum wouldn't exist if we took the most simple conclusion when trying to unravel the secrets of Silent Hill. There would be no need for all this discussion; in general, anyway. Just want to make that clear before somebody shoots me or something.


Well, Occam's Razor isn't just "Simple answer, be done with it." You still need to analyze as much as you can and collect all the data, get rid of all the absurd or unlikely possibilities, then when you have two or more equally likely theories, you pick the one with the least amount of assumptions.

Quote:
Also what I meant by Ernest being a delusion is that he's about as real as all the monsters running around which is to say, not very. In the sense that they do not exist outside of /Fog/Silent Hill or /OtherWorld/Silent Hill. Just want to make that clear, as well.


I understand. I'm just saying that there's really no evidence for that, as we're told he's a ghost, and we know they exist in the SH universe.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 07 Apr 2007
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Fair enough. :D


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 31 Mar 2008
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I hope you all will forgive me for not being as informed on Silent Hill's mythos. This thread really interested me, and made me think. After reading through all the arguments about the meaning of the name Ideal Father, I checked my dictionary for the meaning of the word ideal, and some of the definitions haven't even been considered here...

1. existing as an archetypical idea
I believe this is probably the correct one. The archetpical idea does not have to be a positive one to abide by this definition. Not only is a raping monster a reminder of her father's abuse, it is obviously the archetypical way she views men. Now, here I would refer to her conversation with James and how he is only after one thing etc., but it seems that conversation is not in the original script from what I read here. I am, however, very curious to know what IS there in absence of that dialogue. Either way, she obviously does not fully trust him from their physical interactions in the scene.

2. Existing only as an imaginary image or relating to or constituting such images
Both of these work too, the monster is her mental idea of her father.. lustful, evil, abusive, and disgusting.

3. Relating or confirming to a standard of perfection
This is the one that's been examined for the most part. I have nothing to say on it, but it is here.

4. Relating to philosphical idealism
This also works. On a basic level, idealism is the philosophical belief that the world is compromised of thoughts and ideas. Thus, the way Angela sees her father in her thoughts is the way the Idealist world of Silent Hill (Otherworld) manifests him.

To sum up, I think it was a great and important thing to point out that Abstract Daddy is called Ideal Father, but I think we are limiting ourselves in understanding the monster, Thomas, and Angela by not paying attention to what the word ideal can really mean.


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My Bestsellers Clerk
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Missing since: 04 Nov 2007
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Last seen at: Canada
hmm everyone has interesting theories, but I still beleive it represents sexual abuse. The figure on tops face looks twisted... possibly in pleasure, and Silent hill attacks on your weak spots. She brutally killed her father, and although he did this and that, you would still feel that guilt, like "Am I no better than him?"


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