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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 20 Jul 2005
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What you brought up, Monobrow, resembled a bit of my last post in this thread:

Quote:
From your original post, Burning Man, I thought you referred the word ideal in the 2) manner, that's why I tried to argue against you because it doesn't make sense why Angela would act that way. Anyway I guess I misunderstood.

This is just another idea from me, though I don't personally believe in it, this could be another possible scenario to describe the use of the word ideal. The monster could be an ideal father because it allows Angela to see that someone finally comes to rescue her. I've always imagined that when Angela was abused, noone came to help her, her mother and brother either failed to recognize or ignore this domestic abuse. With this manifestation, Angela allows someone to rescue her: James. Her desire to be rescued now can be fulfilled and thus why the monster is an ideal father - an ideal father is the one she can be saved from. Ideal=Redemption
Even more we could say that Angela sees James as her mother (remember the stairs cut-scene?). We know that Angela is in Silent Hill looking for her mother. Or better yet, she comes to Silent Hill to find an aspect of her mother that has always been absent: care. Therefore abstract daddy is an ideal tool for her to fantasize maternal protection so she could no longer be deprived.
This scenario would also explain why James can see the monster since Angela projects her fantasy on James (as a motherly figure). Since she would need someone who is physically real and morally enough to save her, James is drawn to her world because he is the only one who can play out the role.


Though I didn't extend it to the point where the monster is ideal because Angela is so used to being abused. The Karpman Drama Cycle (first time I've heard about this) is a nice way to explain that Angela is trapped in this victim role, so she conjures the monster in order to forever be in this cycle.

Burning Man - apart from the difference in translation of the word "ideal" and "abstract," do we have other differences in the dialogues exchanged by Angela and James throughout the whole game? For example, do the English translation of the cut-scenes accurate in the English version?

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 11 Sep 2005
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amphreded wrote:
What you brought up, Monobrow, resembled a bit of my last post in this thread:

Quote:
From your original post, Burning Man, I thought you referred the word ideal in the 2) manner, that's why I tried to argue against you because it doesn't make sense why Angela would act that way. Anyway I guess I misunderstood.

This is just another idea from me, though I don't personally believe in it, this could be another possible scenario to describe the use of the word ideal. The monster could be an ideal father because it allows Angela to see that someone finally comes to rescue her. I've always imagined that when Angela was abused, noone came to help her, her mother and brother either failed to recognize or ignore this domestic abuse. With this manifestation, Angela allows someone to rescue her: James. Her desire to be rescued now can be fulfilled and thus why the monster is an ideal father - an ideal father is the one she can be saved from. Ideal=Redemption
Even more we could say that Angela sees James as her mother (remember the stairs cut-scene?). We know that Angela is in Silent Hill looking for her mother. Or better yet, she comes to Silent Hill to find an aspect of her mother that has always been absent: care. Therefore abstract daddy is an ideal tool for her to fantasize maternal protection so she could no longer be deprived.
This scenario would also explain why James can see the monster since Angela projects her fantasy on James (as a motherly figure). Since she would need someone who is physically real and morally enough to save her, James is drawn to her world because he is the only one who can play out the role.


Though I didn't extend it to the point where the monster is ideal because Angela is so used to being abused. The Karpman Drama Cycle (first time I've heard about this) is a nice way to explain that Angela is trapped in this victim role, so she conjures the monster in order to forever be in this cycle.



You have a good point about Angela seeing James as her mother, wanting someone to rescue her, though yeah, I think it can be taken to another level with it. Also the whole thing about the ideal father being someone Angela needs to be rescued from is something I missed myself, really good point. I think maybe Angela's story could be a combination of some of these, (whichever works best for you)... I like how the more we talk about it, the more options there seem to be about why she acted the way she did. Anyway, as far as the Drama Cycle goes, I think Angela may have been projecting it onto James a little bit somewhat through the game, to show that Angela views people in extremes, she obviously is not a balanced individual: quoting myself...


Quote:
Angela tries to project upon James both the position of Persecutor and Rescuer.

Persecutor conversation:

Quote:
James: Angela! Relax!

Angela: Don't order me around!

James: I'm not trying to order you.

Angela: So what do you want then? Oh I see, you're trying to be nice to me,
right? I know what you're up to. It's always the same. You're
only after one thing.

James: No, that's not true at all.

Angela: You don't have to lie. Go ahead and say it. Or you could just
force me. Beat me up like he always did.

*Angela begins to kneel on the ground.*

Angela: You only care about yourself anyway.

*Angela is crying and begins having dry heaves.*

Angela: You disgusting pig.

James: Angela...

*James puts his hand on Angela's shoulder.*

Angela: Don't touch me!! You make me sick!

Rescuer:

Quote:
Angela: Thank you for saving me... But I wish you hadn't. Even Mama said it... I deserved what happened...

James: No Angela, that's wrong!

Angela: No. Don't pity me. I'm not worth it....

*The tone of Angela's voice suddenly changes.*

Angela: Or maybe you think you can save me? Will you love me' Take care of me' Heal all my pain'


Maybe this is why Angela mistakes James for her "Mama"...


The thing about Angela is, I think she realizes deep down exactly what happened to her. I think she realizes that she can only help herself to escape this, but she just refuses to do it. She's too used to being caught up the abuse that she even creates it for herself, and attempts to create the drama cycle with people she meets that haven't even done anything to her (James). Playing the victim can be a lifelong role, unless the person learns how to step out of it. People who have been victimized in the past often search for other abusers and rescuers to start the cycle once again.


On that note, we know that Angela sees James as her mother for a few seconds, so what if she saw James as her father at one point as well? Maybe the reason why she goes crazy on James in the Blue Creek Apartments is because for a fleeting second, she saw James as her dad when he went for the knife. Suddenly she blurts out "I've been bad"... Like a kid.... What is that supposed to even mean? Poor Angela.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 02 May 2006
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well... it would've been simpler really to think that the designers thought "Abstract Daddy" sounded cooler than "Subconsciously Distorted Perspective-Projected Paternal/Masculine Authoritarian Figure" would've been, even if it was the more exacting of the two descriptive terms.

Problem solved. 8)

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Gravedigger
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Missing since: 03 Feb 2007
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Last seen at: Funky town! :O
I think the theory that it's representative of James killing Mary would fit better, except for Angela's react to the Abstract Daddy. :? Maybe it's a bit of both?
Anyway, I think the personal act of killing someone up close fits the description of the abstract daddy far more than sexual abuse. I also don't see a second person inside it's form. In fact, before reading about it online, I always just thought an abstract daddy was just a Hanging Man dropped from the ceiling. They've got the same mouth-type thing, and are very, very similar in general. The only difference is that the Hanging men have a cube of a cage around them, when the abstract daddy only has a square frame.

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Gravedigger
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Missing since: 16 Jul 2006
Notes left: 531
Burning Man wrote:
Knick Knack wrote:
I think the word 'ideal' showing up is either sarcasm or a case of Engrish. The term 'Ideal Father' itself is strange as a label for this thing.

'Ideal' isn't Engrish because it was originally written in Japanese. [Risoutekina chichioya]. Wallofdeath translated the Japanese term into English. If anything, "abstract daddy" is the one that could be Engrish.

I don't agree that it was sarcasm. Non-English speakers would simply not understand the sarcasm.

I find that bit quite offending.

Anyways, reading this thread, at least it becomes clear where the "abstract" part comes from. :)

Edit: I think that the whole "ideal father" thing is sarcasm and that the monster doesn't represent a dead Tom Orosco. But maybe "ideal father" could also mean that it is easier for Angela to see her attacker in the shape of a hellish "monster" instead of seeing her own "father"? Some people who were molested as a kid replace their awareness of the experience by fantasies of having been abducted by aliens and got "anal probed" or something. Maybe it's the same thing with Angela, though she seems to be aware that the monster is her father... shit, i don't know. Ideas? Theories?

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Historical Society Historian
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Squarehead wrote:
Burning Man wrote:
Non-English speakers would simply not understand the sarcasm.

I find that bit quite offending.

Aww... :roll:

As an example, I don't speak a word of, say, Portuguese. I wouldn't take offense if someone said I didn't understand Portuguese sarcasm because I'm a non-Portuguese speaker. It's the truth. I would only take offense to such a comment if I felt incompetent.

Take my comment as it is. If one doesn't speak English and doesn't understand it, then that person isn't going to understand English sarcasm. Nothing more, nothing less, and this is something English speakers should understand as well. Some people assume that others will "just get it" regardless of their background. I made no implication that non-English speakers are stupid (the only reason I can think of why you took offense to it), and your comment just makes me look like a bad person.

EDIT:

Monobrow wrote:
If you think about Angela's self-abuse in this way, then I think the term "Ideal Daddy" can be applied pretty well. It's not that he's actually representing an "ideal" father, it's that it represents Angela's inability to change. She's so used to being abused, that she couldn't possibly think of another way for her father to be. Angela spends her time looking for her mother in the game. So maybe by conjuring up a version of her father to abuse her, Angela is subconsciously trying to call her mom to come in and rescue her again. Her father is the "ideal" by abusing her, so that she can be pacified by her mom showing up and saving her, even if she believes herself to be worthless.


I've actually thought about "ideal father" representing something similar to what you just suggested. In fact, several people have pointed out similar ideas starting with Nillin, so I knew this was an idea worth looking into.

The only potential problem I see in your interpretation is that you're speculating that 'redemption' is certainly what Angela wanted even though she believes she's worthless.

I don't think this is true. At least, it's strongly suggested that 'redemption' wasn't what Angela wanted at the very end, when she tells James that she wished he didn't save her. If 'redemption' was truly what she sought, Angela should have mistaken James for her mother there. Yet, it's not much later until she does that.

Your interpretation makes a lot of sense, but only under that assumption that Angela wanted to be redeemed. My interpretation is based on several 'facts', however. That Angela killed Thomas, and that monsters and/or their actions are a general reminder of what the characters did, while at the same time depicting their subconscious.

In my opinion, the "drama triangle" can be applied to Angela regardless of what interpretation we make for the abstract daddy.

I don't agree that James was sexually repressed. I can see why some people may think so, but ultimately nothing says that he was. This is a case of where an end result is presented before the evidence. A question like, "Assume James was sexually repressed. Please explain why." Then a person takes those reasons and infers that James was sexually repressed.

Otherwise, I really like your interpretation. Perhaps that is the truth afterall.

It's good to see you around, though.

amphreded wrote:
Burning Man - apart from the difference in translation of the word "ideal" and "abstract," do we have other differences in the dialogues exchanged by Angela and James throughout the whole game? For example, do the English translation of the cut-scenes accurate in the English version?

Depends on what you're asking. In regards to the monster itself, that's probably the only difference in translation. In regards to if Angela was *sexually* abused, the difference in the script makes me believe that that isn't necessarily true. I still believe she was physically abused; she probably had a really rough childhood. I just have a hard time believing she was *sexually* abused.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 27 Jan 2007
Notes left: 274
Last seen at: Ry'leh
I don't know if this is anything worth throwing out there but in the strategy guide the 'Abstract Daddy' is just referred to as 'Doormen'.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 23 Jan 2008
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Last seen at: the exact center of nowhere
Aw man, come on guys!
"Abstract" "Ideal" "Doorman", whatever...
Find your savegame before the Abstract Daddy fight,
mute your television,
turn off the subtitles,
forget what you know the characters are saying (English or no),
and just watch it.
*Histerical young woman curled up in the floor in the fetal position,
*Fleshy walls with perpetually undulating pistons
*TV set in table
*Unspeakably hidious monster reminiscent of two people in a bed that attacks you by sucking on your face
Anyone can see it's about child molestation! The most subtle part of the scene, the television, is a dead giveaway.
Most victims of molestation end up habitually fixating themselves on certain aspects of their surroundings during attacks to distract themselves and deal with the abuse, particularly if it's within the family and in their own room. For some people it's certain patterns of wallpaper, for others it's the scent of the particular brand of aftershave that their assailent wears, and very commonly the item of fixation is a TV set (perhaps turned on to mute sounds made by the victim or the attacker). I know someone who has a personal experience with this. If this happens enough times, exposure to that item or smell or sound (or whatever the stimulus is) can cause great terror, fear and anxiety in the victim.
So what was a TV set on a coffee table doing in an otherwise unworldly room? Simulating the abuse that she felt. Please don't tone down the power and bravery of this scene with over-analysation! When I first played the part of the game being brought into question, I was astounded at the inclusion of such a prevelent and sensitive topic in a video game. If such things make you so uncomfortable that you have to rationalize your way out of them, maybe you should play more Halo. With greatest respect,
-The Bugman

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 28 Nov 2007
Notes left: 29
Knick Knack wrote:
If the creature is supposed to be a depiction of Angela stabbing her father to death, then why don't we see an arm being raised repeatedly in a stabbing motion? No one lies still and flat on top of a person if they're stabbing them to death, they straddle them upright and start swinging.

The 'hands' of the being on top are protruding through the doorframe and acting as front legs, thus making it completely impossible for the stabbing motion to even happen. Arms and legs going through the door like that with no way of removing them are a representation of complete domination of the person underneath - obviously Angela.


I think I'd have to agree with Knick Knack here, partially though. I think that the original idea (posted by Burning Man of course) is somewhat easier to believe, and certinatley adds interesting thing to the story line, such as an explanation as to why James can also see the monster. However, maybe the Abstract Daddy could be a further representation of what James was feeling sexually. I don't know if thats stretching it at all, so feel free to argue if you want. But anyways, after the first Abstract Daddy battle in the Labyrinth, I personally notice that James seems to act weirder and a little more distant, as if he's loosing connection with the player or "narrator" or whatever you want to call yourself. Again, this is also assuming that you believe you have a part in the game at all.

But expanding on James getting crazier after the boss battle; I think that after he sees what Angela emotionally goes through after he defeats it, and how she almost switches personalities back and forth during their heated conversation, he too feels a little strange. Also, after killing an Abstract Daddy, I don't mean to be overly sexual here, but the monster sort of give a final "thrust" into whatever is under it. So this could potentially mean that there is a combination of the two theories, that Angela WAS sexually abused, possibly multiple times. Because of the large amount of sexual abuse, she was finally driven to murdering her father, which could explain why there is no simple falling of the monster when you kill it, and a thrust instead.

Sorry if this is really long and scattered, just trying to cram all my thoughts into one post.


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Subway Guard
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Missing since: 02 Aug 2005
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I like your theory but I still believing that Abstract Daddy represents the sexual abuse... After all you have the penis shaped map in that part of the game and those stuff coming in and out in the walls of the room where you fight daddy... The dialogue of Angela also implies the sexual abuse so I don't think all those clues just were made for confuse us... Silent Hill makes reals our guilt feelings but also our fears, the Angela's fear for her dad's abuse...

The word Ideal could be used in a sarcastic or ironic way...


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 07 Apr 2007
Notes left: 53
I think, personally, it might have something to do with Maria.
What I mean to say is, almost from the beginning I thought Maria and the Abstract/Ideal Daddy/Doorman monster were the same, or the same kind of monster.

Angela calls it Daddy. She doesn't give any indication that she recognizes it as a monster. As you go through the game, James is the only one who sees Maria. Than at the end, (depending on your ending) she transforms into a monster similar to the Flesh Lips. But only after he, effectively, sees through her ruse and realizes what she is. Angela never realizes what's going on the way James does in three of the endings.

It always made me think, if someone else saw Maria, someone other than James, what would they see?

What I think is that the Abstract Daddy appears to Angela as her actual father.

Perhaps this translation of 'Ideal' has to do with the fact that he's simply not dead. And because he's not dead, she couldn't have killed him. I don't think she felt pity for him, but it's like how her mother said she deserved it. She was a naughty girl who rebelled when she should have taken her punishment. In this case, the 'Ideal' in Ideal Daddy would be a Daddy she'd never rebelled against.


Last edited by Self-Seeker on 02 Feb 2008, edited 1 time in total.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
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Missing since: 12 Jan 2008
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Obviously, James saw Maria as Maria until he rejected her, and she transformed.
Laura did not see Maria at all. If she had seen her as Maria, she would not have fled from her. And if she'd seen a monster, she would have been terrified; when James found her in the hospital, he'd have had to peel her off him.
Eddie probably would have seen some guy dressed like James and shot at him.
Angela... well, your guess is as good as mine.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
It always made me think, if someone else saw Maria, someone other than James, what would they see?


Ernest Baldwin perceived Maria as a normal human, so I don't think she's quite comparable to the Abstract Daddy.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 07 Apr 2007
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But whether or not Ernest's spirit was actually there is arguable. I mean, Maria was the one communicating with him and she's far from normal.

Just the fact that Maria is only seen by James and there is no objective view of her makes her especially ambiguous. Well, that and everything else about her.

But yeah, it could be that Maria wouldn't appear different to others. I admit that. However, I still think that what Angela saw was her father, pre-stabfest.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11371
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
I agree that Angela saw her normal father pre-murder, but that doesn't mean he's similar to Maria. I consider Daddy a manifestation of guilt or fear, and Maria a manifestation of desire or delusion, so I don't think they're very comparable, such as the Butcher and Pyramid Head, which probably have roots in the same ideas.

As for Ernest's spirit, I guarantee he was there. Maria doesn't have the ability to forge and alter reality and create new beings, being a part of someone else's delusions. That, and Ernest was able to provide information that Maria couldn't of ever known makes it certain he was real. It could be that Ernest was able to communicate with her because he was a ghost, or more likely, he needed her, just like James needs to meet the other characters.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 07 Apr 2007
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Quote:
As for Ernest's spirit, I guarantee he was there. Maria doesn't have the ability to forge and alter reality and create new beings, being a part of someone else's delusions. That, and Ernest was able to provide information that Maria couldn't of ever known makes it certain he was real. It could be that Ernest was able to communicate with her because he was a ghost, or more likely, he needed her, just like James needs to meet the other characters.


Create new beings? Just because we hear him and hear him tell Maria things does not mean he was actually there. Just because we hear and see monsters and interact with them through James does not mean they're actually there.
I mean, objectively. They were of course real to James to the point where they could kill him.

Maria could have just been scatterbrained because she'd just come into existance and hallucinated him. Or maybe being made from the town she had a kind of subconcious knowledge of things that had happened within it. I don't doubt he was once real, as there's evidence of that, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of proof his ghost was. And even if there were, he's not normal either, having tried or wanted to try to bring his daughter back to life. An act of insane desperation worthy of Silent Hill's idiosyncrasies. So I don't think pointing out that Ernest communicated with Maria is enough to suggest she would be perceived by others the same way she's perceived by James.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
Create new beings? Just because we hear him and hear him tell Maria things does not mean he was actually there. Just because we hear and see monsters and interact with them through James does not mean they're actually there.


Yes, but Ernest had a history, a family, his own quest and goals unrelated to James, and the man never even realizes the man exists or made contact with his Otherworld. What point is it to claim James created him, just because he can speak to Maria? As a ghost, he simply might not be bound by the same rules because he's in the same state as Mary: DEAD.

Your argument is basically like saying that Angela is a manifestation of Laura or something.

Quote:
Maria could have just been scatterbrained because she'd just come into existance and hallucinated him. Or maybe being made from the town she had a kind of subconcious knowledge of things that had happened within it. I don't doubt he was once real, as there's evidence of that, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of proof his ghost was.


What evidence is there to assume his ghost ISN'T real? And Maria didn't hallucinate anyone or anything else, what makes Ernest so special? And why would her hallucinations tell her to do something that has no value to her own goals? And technically, Maria is a creation of James and Mary, I don't think Maria would possess some sort of weird psychometric power to learn about the town's history.

Quote:
And even if there were, he's not normal either, having tried or wanted to try to bring his daughter back to life. An act of insane desperation worthy of Silent Hill's idiosyncrasies. So I don't think pointing out that Ernest communicated with Maria is enough to suggest she would be perceived by others the same way she's perceived by James.


Crazy or not, Ernest DOES perceive Maria the exact same way James does. That's not at all arguable.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 07 Apr 2007
Notes left: 53
Quote:
Crazy or not, Ernest DOES perceive Maria the exact same way James does. That's not at all arguable.


Actually, that's not true, is it? I haven't played Born from a Wish in a while but don't they only communicate through the door? He hears her voice, but at the end of the boss battle you hear her voice too and her form doesn't change. Even when she talks to someone else besides James, they don't see her. If I remember correctly, I mean.

There's nothing to prove Ernest wasn't really there, but there's not a lot to suggest he was, that's all I'm saying.

As to Maria gathering the items needed for the Rebirth ending....you ever wonder how the weird little clues and items that you need to use to get through the game conveniently wind up right where you can find, pick up, and use them? Maybe we're getting a little glimpse into how that happens. The town was catering to James twisted memories, repressed emotions and desires. All he had to do was chose which one he wanted, and the town would provide. Hence the different endings. Since one of the things he wanted was to resurrect Mary, there had to be something readily available that would do that.


Last edited by Self-Seeker on 07 Feb 2008, edited 1 time in total.

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Gravedigger
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Missing since: 04 Mar 2007
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I honestly think that Ernest's presence can be proven because the gift was open and laid out by the time Maria finally breaks form and opens the door. That's partially the thing with Silent Hill: it's never COMPLETELY one person's own delusion. The town exists in and of itself, has it's own histories and people.

It doesn't need people to hallucinate them. In fact, it's more like half the town's doing and half the person's. The person provides the baseline, the town provides everything else. But things still exist outside the person's own baseline for their own private hell.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
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Missing since: 12 Jan 2008
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So the empty, misty town would be the baseline, and the monsters and other things would be the person't contribution? I guess that would explain why Laura doesn't see them: she brings no monsters in with her.


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