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Are Angela, Eddie and Laura real people?
Poll ended at 17 Apr 2008
Yes 94%  94%  [ 31 ]
No 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 33
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Historical Society Historian
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>But then why does Laura seem surprised that James knows her name in Brookhaven? It's implying that they've never met before Silent Hill, or at least never got acquainted. It's likely they've crossed paths while James was visiting Mary, but if even Laura doesn't expect him to know her name, then they can't have seen that much of eachother.

Well, you kind of answered your own question here. If Laura was also in the hospital, and James didn't come to visit Mary as much as he should have after a while, it would stand very much to reason that they didn't see very much of each other--or that James completely disregarded her.

Also, Laura probably had no time to introduce herself to James. Can you really see her doing that? All she does is run away from him and Eddie, antagonize them, etc. She doesn't seem like the type of kid who is comfortable around adults, probably only with Mary. Remember what Mary said in her note to Laura? "Be good to the sisters" (paraphrased~). I can't see a little girl like Laura volunteering her name to James--hell, I could see her leaving the room entirely if James would come visit Mary, and Mary might not have mentioned it to him. Maybe towards the end, when she wanted to adopt Laura, she would have mentioned it, but James doesn't seem to be visiting at that time...

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Rosewater Park Attendant
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I think that, in the end, it's just one of those inconsistencies that appear in nearly every story. On the one hand, Mary mentions James to Laura as if the two of them know each other. On the other, Laura is surprised that James knows who she is, which suggests that they don't. It's possible that James was no neglectful of his wife that he never encountered Laura, but if that was the case, why would he have been so devastated by her illness, and why would Laura dislike him so much? And it is equally unacceptable that Laura and the other people in town are constructs like Maria. In the end, you have to choose the rationalization that you like best.


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Just Passing Through
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Isa wrote:
RedPyramidThing wrote:
Eddie is the only character who displays a drastic and unwarented change in behavior and motives, rather than simply "serving a purpose" like PH, Maria or the monsters (and in many ways Angela and Laura).


Eddie does serve a purpose. His actions and behavior changes weren't at random. Going by the theory that each character represents a different ending... Eddie's ultimate purpose, besides what's discussed in the first post, is to drive James to succumb to his problems and continue to live in his delusional world, and ultimately bring about the "Maria" ending.


I believe there is far more evidence to suppot the theory that Maria is the one who lures James to the "Maria Ending". At the end, James enounters Maria (or Mary), not Eddie. You unlock the ending by spending time with Maria, and Maria constantly helps to remind James that his wife is dead. If anything, James serves a purpose for Eddie... trying to talk him out of his violent actions, and presenting another path, opposed to the one he eventually travels. I think that Lura also serves a purpose to Eddie as well.

In fact, I think we need to redifine our defenition of "real". Any one who played Born From a Wish knows that Maria believes herself to be a real person, and experiences legitimate emotions. Also, in BFAW, Maria helps the man behind the door (Earnest, if my memory serves me right) before she encounters James and helps him. Was Earnest real? If so, is it possible Maria served dual (or more) purposes, helping Earnest with a rebirth ceremony, and luring James to "insanity" (similar to how Laura might have served a purpose with both Eddie and James?) ?

If we assume that Angela does not serve a purpose, that the In Water suicide and her own are mearly coincidences (the game does have a theme of self destruction running through it), then Eddie and Angela are the only characters who don't serve a larger role... which furthers my arguement that they are real.

Laura is a whole different, complicated issue...

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Historical Society Historian
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>It's possible that James was no neglectful of his wife that he never encountered Laura, but if that was the case, why would he have been so devastated by her illness, and why would Laura dislike him so much?

Lol please, you're talking to the girl who fully advocates James as a non-monster asshole (the thread's in the quicklinks :3) so, yeah. Preachin' to the choir, my friend.

My mind must be slipping, however, as I can't recall for the life of me where Mary ever says anything to James about Laura--it's not in her letter, nor in the conversation they have at the end, which... probably isn't even real by our standards of reality.

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Just Passing Through
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Krist. wrote:
Well, you kind of answered your own question here.


No, I know. I was providing it as evidence for Oddish. Probably shouldn't have worded it as a question. >>

Oddish wrote:
QUOTE: But then why does Laura seem surprised that James knows her name in Brookhaven? It's implying that they've never met before Silent Hill, or at least never got acquainted.
Unfortunately, that's a good point, but I think I have to figure that Laura had thought by then that James had forgotten about her. Yes, it's flimsy, but I just can't accept the idea that she doesn't really exist. I mean, Laura has to know who James is, because (1) she attacks him and later accuses James of not loving Mary and (2) Mary says that she does, and gives a valid reason for her hating him. Besides, in "Leave", when James has rejected the hold the town has on him, Laura still exists.


Believe me, I'm not saying she doesn't exist. I'm just providing evidence against your translation of the 'blind' comment. It seems less likely she'd say it in that context if she didn't even expect him to know her name.

RedPyramidThing wrote:

I believe there is far more evidence to suppot the theory that Maria is the one who lures James to the "Maria Ending". At the end, James enounters Maria (or Mary), not Eddie. You unlock the ending by spending time with Maria, and Maria constantly helps to remind James that his wife is dead. If anything, James serves a purpose for Eddie... trying to talk him out of his violent actions, and presenting another path, opposed to the one he eventually travels. I think that Lura also serves a purpose to Eddie as well.

In fact, I think we need to redifine our defenition of "real". Any one who played Born From a Wish knows that Maria believes herself to be a real person, and experiences legitimate emotions. Also, in BFAW, Maria helps the man behind the door (Earnest, if my memory serves me right) before she encounters James and helps him. Was Earnest real? If so, is it possible Maria served dual (or more) purposes, helping Earnest with a rebirth ceremony, and luring James to "insanity" (similar to how Laura might have served a purpose with both Eddie and James?) ?

If we assume that Angela does not serve a purpose, that the In Water suicide and her own are mearly coincidences (the game does have a theme of self destruction running through it), then Eddie and Angela are the only characters who don't serve a larger role... which furthers my arguement that they are real.

Laura is a whole different, complicated issue...


Well, yeah... Maria would want to bring about her own ending. But I don't believe Maria is a real person. I've played Born From A Wish. I played it the other night. I still don't think she's real. After all...

[spoiler]Ernest wasn't real. Not at the time the game takes place, at least. I believe he's dead? A lot of the things Ernest says suggest that Maria is a manifestation rather than a real person. He even begins to try and tell her, but she refuses to hear it. "That's just what you think. You don't know anything."[/spoiler]

Maria does believe herself to be a real person, and James believes it to, but it doesn't make her real. She's apart of the town, or at least the version of it that's been brought on by James' subconscious. She exists to deviate James from remembering what he did to Mary, and thus to indeed lead him into "insanity". But Eddie does something similar. I suppose Eddie's purpose could be to show James what would happen if he doesn't experience his little epiphany and awaken from his delusions. But either way, he's related to that ending. Maria is not real, so when James leaves Silent Hill with her... He's not really leaving. He's giving in to insanity, just like Eddie.

As far as James supporting Eddie instead... It doesn't really make sense to have the main character serve a purpose for a supporting character.

And Angela does serve a purpose. She has to. Otherwise, why the hell is she there? She's certainly no innocent bystander. She's in the game because she's involved with James' story.

However, as I've said, I don't think it makes them imaginary people (save for Maria). It's just a very interesting possibility. The fact that Laura gets to leave Silent Hill in itself proves that she is real. Angela and Eddie don't get to leave because, well... They die. They're two very hopeless people who are trapped in the darkest points of their lives and will never escape. Eddie succumbs to insanity (Maria) and Angela commits suicide (In Water), while Laura gets to go home and, you know, stay alive (Leave). Depending on James' actions during the game, he will follow one of these three paths, unless you shoot for one of the endings that require items to be picked up. Which... Honestly, I'm not sure if I even believe in the Rebirth ending. Need to research it more.

Furthermore, I don't think the emo and violent sides of James would manifest as a teenage girl and a fat guy who dresses like he's four, but that's just me.


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Just Passing Through
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Actually, based on the ending to "Born From a Wish," I'm not even sure Maria considers herself a real person, because: [spoiler]When she's walking away from the house, she's sort of swimming in the fact that "Oh, I'm just some sort of fantasy," and decides "Fuck that shit, I'm not gonna get used by some jerk!" and puts the gun to her head like she's going to kill herself. She's just afraid of actually dying, and that's the reason she doesn't do it.[/spoiler]


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Hope House Careworker
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Oddish wrote:
Well, in GameOver's defense, the essay at the beginning does provide some interesting reasons to believe that James is alone in the town. And if you believe what the essay says, then you can just say you believe it. On the other hand, I agree: the person who wrote the essay explains why they believe what they believe, so they are far more convincing.


Thank you.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
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I suppose it's kind of like that old "Deep Space 9" episode, the one that featured a village full of holograms that thought they were real people. Even when they knew what they were, they still retained their basic humanity: capacity for love, sense of self-preservation, etc.


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Historical Society Historian
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Ernest wasn't real. Not at the time the game takes place, at least. I believe he's dead?


He's real. He's just a ghost.

Quote:
As far as James supporting Eddie instead... It doesn't really make sense to have the main character serve a purpose for a supporting character.


That's only our perspective. To Eddie, he's the main character and James the supporting.

Quote:
And Angela does serve a purpose. She has to. Otherwise, why the hell is she there? She's certainly no innocent bystander. She's in the game because she's involved with James' story.


She has her own story to deal with. Any contributions she makes to James' are purely incidental. Same for Laura and Eddie.

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My Bestsellers Clerk
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Really good theory and I'll go as far as to say it's very possible. Regardless of what James finds in town that we say is "evidence" it can all still be manifestations. IT'S SILENT HILL why would you base anything as concrete fact. For example you go through the hospital and next thing you know you're walking through an evil alternate hospital. How do you know what is real and what is'nt.

All in all though, they're most likely real people. I don't think konami would have made the strory 'that' in depth.

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Just Passing Through
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Well it's not as simple as saying something is just because "it's Silent Hill". I recall someone saying that that reason is just a cop-out.

Pertaining to the theory presented, I thought it was really nice and thought-out but I still believe that James, Angela, Eddie, and Laura are in fact real people.


Last edited by Baal on 19 Mar 2008, edited 1 time in total.

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Just Passing Through
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AuraTwilight wrote:

Quote:
As far as James supporting Eddie instead... It doesn't really make sense to have the main character serve a purpose for a supporting character.


That's only our perspective. To Eddie, he's the main character and James the supporting.

Quote:
And Angela does serve a purpose. She has to. Otherwise, why the hell is she there? She's certainly no innocent bystander. She's in the game because she's involved with James' story.


She has her own story to deal with. Any contributions she makes to James' are purely incidental. Same for Laura and Eddie.


I'm speaking about the game itself, from a story writer's stance. A story doesn't flow well if each little tale doesn't tie together. Eddie, Angela, and Laura do have their own stories and they are their own people, in the game, but the story writers intentionally worked them to relate to James so the story would flow. Otherwise, there would be absolutely no reason to include them in the game. It wouldn't make sense. Why they're there in James' story is left almost entirely up to speculation, but they are there, and it's for a reason.

But, getting back on topic...

Out of all the characters in question, the only one I'd be willing to accept is imaginary would be Angela. Eddie and Laura interacted, and I do not believe Laura is fake, for two reasons. One, we see her leave Silent Hill, and two, Maria feels that connection to her after she sees her, even before James knows who she is and how she knows about Mary. Angela, however, has no solid proof. She has a lot more proof pointing to her not being real, actually. The comment she makes in the Labyrinth, and the fact that she, you know, walks through fire. The idea that Eddie lures James toward insanity is pure speculation, but throughout the game Angela does blatantly try to lure James to suicide. She has an obvious purpose, like Maria.


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My Bestsellers Clerk
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I think saying it's "silent hill" is a completely justified response and not a 'cop out' by any means. I was simply stating that it is a very evil and mysterious town and to say that something is concrete evidence in that town is very ignorant.

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Just Passing Through
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Just because Silent Hill doesn't stick to any physical laws does not mean that it doesn't follow any train of logic. For example, you state that the town itself is evil which isn't so. If it were evil, then that would mean that anyone who experiences the Otherworld would find it to be hellish which just isn't so.

The outcome depends on the person's emotions and feelings. The Otherworld can actually be a pleasant place. Proof: In SH2 at the hospital, there is a document James finds that describes a one Joseph Barkin. In that document it explains that Joseph experiences a rather pleasant Otherworld, one that is much more pleasant than our reality that he was in.


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My Bestsellers Clerk
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Very true my friend...I just have my own views of the town and how it functions.

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Just Passing Through
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And I respect that friend. Sorry for getting off-topic everyone.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
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I think that the reason that each of these characters was inserted into the game was to represent the choices that James has at his disposal, but they are nonetheless as real as James is. Angela unquestionably represents "In-Water" and Laura represents "Leave". Either Eddie or Maria could represent "Maria" (depending on whose theory you go by), and either Maria or Mary could represent "Rebirth". The fact that things are laid out in this way does not have to mean that the characters are not real, it may just be serendipitous.


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Historical Society Historian
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Quote:
I'm speaking about the game itself, from a story writer's stance. A story doesn't flow well if each little tale doesn't tie together. Eddie, Angela, and Laura do have their own stories and they are their own people, in the game, but the story writers intentionally worked them to relate to James so the story would flow. Otherwise, there would be absolutely no reason to include them in the game. It wouldn't make sense. Why they're there in James' story is left almost entirely up to speculation, but they are there, and it's for a reason.


While I agree that they all have something connecting them, it's always possible that they're just there to show that James isn't the only one experiencing this, and isn't "special" or singled out.

Quote:
Out of all the characters in question, the only one I'd be willing to accept is imaginary would be Angela. Eddie and Laura interacted, and I do not believe Laura is fake, for two reasons. One, we see her leave Silent Hill, and two, Maria feels that connection to her after she sees her, even before James knows who she is and how she knows about Mary. Angela, however, has no solid proof. She has a lot more proof pointing to her not being real, actually. The comment she makes in the Labyrinth, and the fact that she, you know, walks through fire. The idea that Eddie lures James toward insanity is pure speculation, but throughout the game Angela does blatantly try to lure James to suicide. She has an obvious purpose, like Maria.


I wouldn't say that Angela's a Maria-like construct to lead him to suicide. All she does is present the option with her own, and makes no moves to push any sort of agenda, intentionally or otherwise. And besides, she's going through the Abyss just like James, Eddie, and Walter.

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Just Passing Through
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Seeing as how this thread seems to be slowly drifting towards the churn of antiquity, I must simply congratulate SolidandShade. I have been coming to this site for a long time now, and have seen a lot of "no one is real" theories, but this has been one of the best arguements I've seen in quite some time to challenge the perception of EA&L being real.

Back on topic, I have always agreed that Maria is fictitious, and that the Maria ending represents a lapse into insanity on the part of James. I was simply trying to point out that she feels emotions and is even more fleshed out than Angela, supporting the theory that if any of them (EA&L) are imaginary, it would be Angela.
I also must agree with Aura, in that Angela never seems to "tempt" James into anything. In fact, I've always thought of the In Water ending and Angela's suicide to be coincidences. Maria lures James into a "comfortable insanity" where he doesn't have to acknowledge the death of his wife. Laura leads him all over town, before finially leading him out in the Leave ending. Angela simply follows her own path (in my opinion, similar to Eddie).

In terms of the "James is the center of the story" arguement, I simply cannot agree with this, if only because it would make the game shallow. The mark of any good story is how much you feel for the characters on the side... not the man in the middle. I believe it is completly possible for James to serve as some sort of sign or "purpose" for Eddie. Just because James is the center of the plot, it is obvious that other people are experiencing something similar (one of the reasons that no SH game has yet to recycle a protagonist)... James isn't special... he just happens to have a camera behind him, while Eddie and Angela do not.

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Hope House Careworker
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Alright, we have a lot of people voting 'yes' and just two people voting 'No'. Yet, we have more than two people agreeing with the "not real" theory.

Someone probably went through the question only once.


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