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Are Angela, Eddie and Laura real people?
Poll ended at 17 Apr 2008
Yes 94%  94%  [ 31 ]
No 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 33
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Historical Society Historian
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This is of course assuming she can even GET hungry in the Otherworld, or that she can't conjure some if she needs it. Eddie seems to find food pretty damn well.

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My Bestsellers Clerk
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LanceS133 wrote:
Yeah, definitely real people. Very good theory tho.


Maybe they are real people BUT they're already dead and the town summons them for James so that he may learn from his actions of killing mary. The town already revived Maria who was a REAL person but died and was resurrected by the town for James. So if Maria could've been real and revived, why could'nt AE&L also be illusions to James had they "died and been resurrected" like Maria??

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Rosewater Park Attendant
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We never said they absolutely couldn't, just that we don't believe they are. We believe that they are real people. Eddie dies in the slaughterhouse, at James's rluctant hand. Angela dies in the fire that she's created out of her own self-loathing: her ending is always "In Water", or her own equivalent thereef. Laura is just the opposite. She will always end her day in Silent Hill trundling out of town, just as she does in "Leave", whether James is behind her or not. She did what she came to do: found out the truth about Mary. And she goes on with her life, as Mary would have wanted. With any luck, she returns to reality, and is ultimately returned to the care of the "sisters" Mary mentioned.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
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It's a very interesting topic (which I shall now bump, sorry, but it was in the quick links, don't have a go at me when you directed me here!), and it is one I actually perceived when I originally played the game.

I mean I had seen Angela as the first manifestation of Silent Hill, because of the way she had been acting, but I wasn't sure about Eddie.

On my second playthrough I saw them more as characters going through similar 'lessons' as James, just responding to it in very different ways. I saw Eddie's non-stop vomiting near the beginning as his punishment for his gluttony (look how fat he is!) and Angela seemed to be being made to face her past - confront her demons instead of running away from them.

It seemed pretty clear to me that Maria wasn't real, but I have yet to play the bonus chapter thing on the Director's Cut so I could be wrong.

Thing is, when you play every other Silent Hill game in the series, it's just a demonic town caused by a cult where nasty shit goes on, but SH2 does seem to have a different take on it, treating it as a kind of purgatory and that. I mean all of the games seem to have the town spawn monsters based on the perceivers' minds but only in SH2 does it seem to be this full-on purgatory place used for that purpose.

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Historical Society Historian
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Thing is, when you play every other Silent Hill game in the series, it's just a demonic town caused by a cult where nasty shit goes on, but SH2 does seem to have a different take on it, treating it as a kind of purgatory and that. I mean all of the games seem to have the town spawn monsters based on the perceivers' minds but only in SH2 does it seem to be this full-on purgatory place used for that purpose.


To be fair, this is because the other games have a psychic basically hacking the system. SH2 is probably the "natural" state of the town.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
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Good point!

I had always interpreted it that after the Alessa stuff, the town is sort of 'left unattended' at which point it calls out to people or just torments the people who happen to end up there...

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Rosewater Park Attendant
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>the town is sort of 'left unattended' at which point it calls out to people or just torments the people who happen to end up there...

Unlikely, since Mary, James, Joseph and Henry had visited the "normal town" after the events of SH1.

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Historical Society Historian
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I think he means that the supernatural side is unattended. No emotionally disturbed super-psychic taking the reins.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
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Well, I believe Angela and Eddie are real, but not Laura. For one thing, Laura has no last name (just like Maria, who I also believe is not real). Now, you may be thinking, "How does that prove anything?" Well, in the manual, James, Angela and Eddie have last names, and they aren't out to punish James or show him the truth. They're on their own path the whole time. Maria and Laura go out of their way to show James the truth and to punish him (Yeah, yeah, Laura's pretty bad at punishing James, but she's a little girl. What could she really do?)

Furthermore, I'll mention the Abyss. Eddie, Angela and James all have tombstones, but Maria and Laura do not. Most people I talk to say something like, "Well, cause Laura's innocent unlike the rest are." You mean to tell me Angela defending herself is a sin, right? Not at all. I've also heard, "They don't have tombstones because they don't die!" Cry pardon? We know for a fact Maria dies over and over and over again, and depending on your game, James has a four out of five chance that he survives the journey. So what it boils down to is that the tombstones aren't based upon sin and they aren't based on death either. They're based on reality, which Laura does not have.

And as a final argument: Laura having a letter from Mary doesn't mean she's undoubtedly real, for two reasons:
1- We know for a fact Mary became very bitter near the end of her life towards James. The 'letter' proclaimed Mary knew Laura up until her death. Well, if I may pose a question: If Mary was so hostile to James, her friggin' HUSBAND who she said she loved many times in the game, then why would she be so undyingly friendly to this random, bratty little girl to the point where she'd adopt her? Makes sense? Not to me...
2- Quote Mary's letter: "Be well, Laura. Don’t be too hard on
the sisters. And Laura, about James... I know you hate him because you think
he isn’t nice to me, but please give him a chance. It’s true he may be a
little surly sometimes, and he doesn’t laugh much. But underneath he’s
really a sweet person. Laura... I love you like my very own daughter." So obviously Laura had quite some time to observe and examine our good friend James, and even develop a dislike for him. James, however, doesn't even know this little girl. So another question: How could Laura see James on a basis regular enough to dislike- Hell, even HATE him- without James ever knowing she even existed? Sounds a little far-fetched to me...

So someone may ask what I think Laura is, if she's not real. I believe she is the representation of the innocent side of terminally-ill-Mary, who just wanted James to be a good husband and look after her while she was dying. Read the 'letter' again with that in mind, and you may be able to see where that comes from. Laura is the spirit of Mary both enacting a childish revenge on James, and berating him for what he did to her. I mean, think about how robotic she is. pulls a prank on James, then comes right out of nowhere and says "You didn't love Mary anyway!" or says "You gonna yell at me?". That's all she's driven to do: Make James' adventure harder on him and to jar his memory with Mary's thoughts.

By the way, I follow the idea the "James was a bad husband" idea, so if you disagree, keep it for another forum, please :) And also, this is just my idea. I'm not saying I'm right or anyone else is wrong, this is just how I see Laura. But on the real topic; Eddie and Angela are real people, just like James, but Laura is a creation of the town.


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Historical Society Historian
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O NO U DINT

Wounded Warsong wrote:
Well, I believe Angela and Eddie are real, but not Laura. For one thing, Laura has no last name (just like Maria, who I also believe is not real). Now, you may be thinking, "How does that prove anything?" Well, in the manual, James, Angela and Eddie have last names, and they aren't out to punish James or show him the truth. They're on their own path the whole time. Maria and Laura go out of their way to show James the truth and to punish him (Yeah, yeah, Laura's pretty bad at punishing James, but she's a little girl. What could she really do?)


Laura doesn't have a last name because she's a orphan, likely one abandoned at birth by unknown parents.

Quote:
Furthermore, I'll mention the Abyss. Eddie, Angela and James all have tombstones, but Maria and Laura do not. Most people I talk to say something like, "Well, cause Laura's innocent unlike the rest are." You mean to tell me Angela defending herself is a sin, right? Not at all. I've also heard, "They don't have tombstones because they don't die!" Cry pardon? We know for a fact Maria dies over and over and over again, and depending on your game, James has a four out of five chance that he survives the journey. So what it boils down to is that the tombstones aren't based upon sin and they aren't based on death either. They're based on reality, which Laura does not have.


Angela may not have sinned from a purely objective point of view, but in her own mind, she sinned like mad crazy, and that's what's important: Silent Hill isn't the judge of moral character here. The individual is judging him/herself, and the experience reflects this. Though she may arguably deserve a medal for what she did, Angela feels tormented by it. The tombstones are based upon the guilt the person feels, regardless of whether or not there is anything about which to feel guilty.


Quote:
And as a final argument: Laura having a letter from Mary doesn't mean she's undoubtedly real, for two reasons:
1- We know for a fact Mary became very bitter near the end of her life towards James. The 'letter' proclaimed Mary knew Laura up until her death. Well, if I may pose a question: If Mary was so hostile to James, her friggin' HUSBAND who she said she loved many times in the game, then why would she be so undyingly friendly to this random, bratty little girl to the point where she'd adopt her? Makes sense? Not to me...


a. When Mary was having one of her moods, the hospital staff would likely not let Laura visit. They could not similarly keep James away.

b. James was inattentive and clearly had trouble making some of the proper emotional connections. Mary needed him to always be there for her, even when she was having one of her bad turns. He could not handle it, and he broke one of his marriage vows. Sickness and health, wot.

c. Laura may likely have understood Mary better than James did, so she could endure Mary's bad spells and it wouldn't bother her. Alternatively, since Laura was proving to be a better companion than her own husband, Mary may have shown greater restraint when she was around.


Quote:
2- Quote Mary's letter: "Be well, Laura. Don’t be too hard on
the sisters. And Laura, about James... I know you hate him because you think
he isn’t nice to me, but please give him a chance. It’s true he may be a
little surly sometimes, and he doesn’t laugh much. But underneath he’s
really a sweet person. Laura... I love you like my very own daughter." So obviously Laura had quite some time to observe and examine our good friend James, and even develop a dislike for him. James, however, doesn't even know this little girl. So another question: How could Laura see James on a basis regular enough to dislike- Hell, even HATE him- without James ever knowing she even existed? Sounds a little far-fetched to me...


Er, James deluded himself so badly that he completely forgot and misremembered the last three years of his entire life.

Also, James' inattentiveness is almost certainly the main reason Laura dislikes him and thinks he didn't love Mary. She may have only seen him in person on a handful of occasions.

Quote:
So someone may ask what I think Laura is, if she's not real. I believe she is the representation of the innocent side of terminally-ill-Mary, who just wanted James to be a good husband and look after her while she was dying. Read the 'letter' again with that in mind, and you may be able to see where that comes from. Laura is the spirit of Mary both enacting a childish revenge on James, and berating him for what he did to her. I mean, think about how robotic she is. pulls a prank on James, then comes right out of nowhere and says "You didn't love Mary anyway!" or says "You gonna yell at me?". That's all she's driven to do: Make James' adventure harder on him and to jar his memory with Mary's thoughts.


There are three major flaws to this theory:

a: For it to be true, everything pertaining to the Mary/Laura friendship must be a complete fabrication. Even if there were a good reason why, it wouldn't work. The memories must be real, else Maria would never display any knowledge of her.

b: You initially mentioned how neither Maria nor Laura are given surnames. This comparison is made moot because Maria is also never given any backstory. The only context Maria ever has is from the minute she is 'born from a wish', and the game never implies that she existed at all until the minute James came to town. Conversely, Laura has a well-documented past history with Mary that is referenced on several separate occasions. Laura mentions facts that have nothing to do with Mary (her age, her penchant for running away, her poor health). Finally, she has a specific reason for being in town: She's looking for Mary. Maria is just "there".

b: Laura must be real because we know she came from outside of town. She caught a ride with Eddie. I postulate that the only reason Eddie ever came to Silent Hill is because that's where Laura told him to go.

Quote:
By the way, I follow the idea the "James was a bad husband" idea, so if you disagree, keep it for another forum, please :) And also, this is just my idea. I'm not saying I'm right or anyone else is wrong, this is just how I see Laura. But on the real topic; Eddie and Angela are real people, just like James, but Laura is a creation of the town.


I don't think James is a bad husband. I think he is essentially a decent man who made some terrifically bad judgement calls. But, that aside, Laura is clearly as real as anyone else in this game.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
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The tombstones are based upon the guilt the person feels, regardless of whether or not there is anything about which to feel guilty.


I interpreted the tombstones as foreshadowing the impending death that those characters will inevitably receive in Silent Hill.

I don't think Eddie feels guilty about anything by that point.


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Just Passing Through
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a: For it to be true, everything pertaining to the Mary/Laura friendship must be a complete fabrication. Even if there were a good reason why, it wouldn't work. The memories must be real, else Maria would never display any knowledge of her.


I never said is was a COMPLETE fabrication, but that Laura represents a part of Mary. Now, the letter, THAT was a fabrication explaining Mary's thoughts, in attempt to show James what was going on in her head. Remember, James is still caught up in his delusion at that point, so the attempt is still valid.

Quote:
The tombstones are based upon the guilt the person feels, regardless of whether or not there is anything about which to feel guilty.


Eddie felt guilty about killing people? Sure doesn't seem like it to me...

Quote:
Er, James deluded himself so badly that he completely forgot and misremembered the last three years of his entire life.

Also, James' inattentiveness is almost certainly the main reason Laura dislikes him and thinks he didn't love Mary. She may have only seen him in person on a handful of occasions.


Not necessarily. The only thing we know for an absolute fact is that he repressed his wife's death. He himself never says anything about the actual hospitalization, so who's to say what he really repressed and what he did not?

Quote:
b: Laura must be real because we know she came from outside of town. She caught a ride with Eddie. I postulate that the only reason Eddie ever came to Silent Hill is because that's where Laura told him to go.

Laura doesn't have a last name because she's a orphan, likely one abandoned at birth by unknown parents.


Hahaha... Look, I never watched or read anything extra about this game. All I draw from for my ideas is from the actual game, not the official analysis, cause truthfully, I feel it takes the fun out of contemplating it if you have a "real" description. So, if you want to throw in stuff you can't even obtain from the base source, go for it, but I'll stick to postulating about the real thing, thank you. Call me ignorant or whatever if you please, but I personally find thinking about the game content much more fulfilling than just reading the rock-solid truth and leaving it at that


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Historical Society Historian
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Wounded Warsong wrote:
I never said is was a COMPLETE fabrication, but that Laura represents a part of Mary. Now, the letter, THAT was a fabrication explaining Mary's thoughts, in attempt to show James what was going on in her head. Remember, James is still caught up in his delusion at that point, so the attempt is still valid.


Why would Laura go through the entire charade of looking for Mary, then?

Quote:
Eddie felt guilty about killing people? Sure doesn't seem like it to me...


Sure does to me. Why would he lie about/justify his actions?

Quote:
Not necessarily. The only thing we know for an absolute fact is that he repressed his wife's death. He himself never says anything about the actual hospitalization, so who's to say what he really repressed and what he did not?


Because if it were a matter that simple, his fabricated understanding of events would be so faulty that it would not be able to withstand even his own casual scrutiny.

Quote:
Hahaha... Look, I never watched or read anything extra about this game. All I draw from for my ideas is from the actual game, not the official analysis, cause truthfully, I feel it takes the fun out of contemplating it if you have a "real" description. So, if you want to throw in stuff you can't even obtain from the base source, go for it, but I'll stick to postulating about the real thing, thank you. Call me ignorant or whatever if you please, but I personally find thinking about the game content much more fulfilling than just reading the rock-solid truth and leaving it at that


You are free to ignore the supplemental material, risking of course that your analysis will be wrong. You have every right to say whatever you like, but if it's flawed, people will call you out on it. If that bothers you, and you can't be bothered to research readily-available material, then you probably not ought to make your theories public.

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Just Passing Through
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Why would Laura go through the entire charade of looking for Mary, then?


Simple: To give James hope. If he saw someone else was looking for Mary, he would search for her more vehemently, thus ensuring that he would reach the Lakeview and find the truth. Remember how I said that Laura was there to show James the truth? There you go.

Quote:
Sure does to me. Why would he lie about/justify his actions?


No question he was mortified the first time, but after that, not so much. Besides, people tend to lie about wrongdoings, regardless of lack of guilt. For instance, say you shoplifted, and you felt no guilt. If someone asked you if you did, would you whole-heartedly confess? Probably not. I think the second time, he knew it was wrong, but felt good about it, and thought James would not understand, so he lied like damn near anyone would do. After he goes off by himself, though, he realizes he no longer feels a need to hide from James. Remember his line: "Don't get all holy on me, James. This town called you too! You and me are the same, don't you know that?" See?

Quote:
Because if it were a matter that simple, his fabricated understanding of events would be so faulty that it would not be able to withstand even his own casual scrutiny.


Really now? Mary's hospitalization, according to James (as far as I see it): Mary gets sick, James visits her continuously, Mary becomes bitter because of the illness and James stops coming, Mary dies "naturally" and James feels alone and would give anything to be with her again. That doesn't sound faulty, really, and especially not with the investment James puts into the delusion.

Quote:
You are free to ignore the supplemental material, risking of course that your analysis will be wrong. You have every right to say whatever you like, but if it's flawed, people will call you out on it. If that bothers you, and you can't be bothered to research readily-available material, then you probably not ought to make your theories public.


Meh, I just think that by having such things, it really takes away from the story by having one, undeniable factual basis rather than the numerous theories and story devices one could otherwise obtain. Really, I could check it out whenever I want, but I really don't think it'll add to the story of the game, other than giving an interpretation that- once added to the grand scheme- reduces a fair deal of the thought process to understand what makes the game great: It's subtlety. This isn't a bash on the official material in any way. If you think it adds to the story, go for it, but I don't and I'd rather think about the various elements myself than to have them laid down in stone, fair enough?


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RESPECT
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If official supplementary material "takes away from the story," the developers wouldn't have written the official supplementary material.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Just Passing Through
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If official supplementary material "takes away from the story," the developers wouldn't have written the official supplementary material.


That's purely a matter of opinion, my friend. And besides, I'm not saying that one theory takes away from the story. I'm saying that HAVING one hard and fast theory takes away from it because it ceases to mean what you think of it and demands you follow what the creators officially say it means.

Have you ever heard of a book called Utopia? If not, then it's book detailing a "perfect society", to be short. But it's unclear whether the book really deals with a perfect society, or it says that one cannot exist through example. Now, I personally would rather consider the story through searching and examination than to have the author just come out and tell me what it's all about, no questions asked. That's a little example of what I'm saying...


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Historical Society Historian
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This still says nothing about the differences between Laura and Maria. To add another, which has nothing to do with the guidebooks since you refuse to accept their existence, Maria avoids all of the other characters while Laura interacts with Eddie. Furthermore, Eddie knows Laura's name and seems comfortable enough around her.

It's established by the Angela scenes that two people looking at the same object will see different things (Abstract Daddy... that does not look like Thomas Orosco, but she identifies it as thus in no uncertain terms, anyway; ergo, they must look different between James and Angela).

Therefore, if Laura is a fabrication and she interacts with Eddie in a way that Maria seems to pointedly avoid ("I hate bowling" is not a reasonable excuse for the circumstances), then Eddie must see something other than a little girl named Laura. This isn't the case.


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RESPECT
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>Abstract Daddy... that does not look like Thomas Orosco, but she identifies it as thus
We don't know what Angela sees, and as far as we do know, she sees what James sees.

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Historical Society Historian
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MMY wrote:
We don't know what Angela sees, and as far as we do know, she sees what James sees.

Oh? How do you figure?

I suppose it's got to do with the burning staircase and consistency, but please elaborate or tell me where it is elaborated.


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Historical Society Historian
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If Laura is real, then the Leave Ending, which is supposed to represent James moving on with his life, is no different from the Maria ending. Either way, James is embracing a delusion. Moreover, it takes away from his choice and free will. "Can't I like...get over my problems, take on the real world, and make amends for my actions? I learned my moral lesson." "No, fuck you. You have to either kill yourself, or pick one of three ways to go fucking crazy."

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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