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 Post subject: A thought on Ernest and Rebirth's purpose

**most of this was from my reply in another topic, which has gone forgotten, I just wanted some wider opinions on it**

Before coming to this realization, I was fully in support of In Water as the ending. Even though I love the ending, I now see that all of the endings are part of a picture. Rebirth is the ultimate bad doing, I believe, one that was meant to be avoided, but could be seen as the true ending, depending on what kind of story you want out of Silent Hill 2....on to it:


With Rebirth, it makes it seem James was always intending to do this, and Ernest knew it. It seems as if he hoped Maria could replace Mary in a way that would avoid "Rebirth"....To avoid the need to bring Mary back to life.

Ernest never wanted to see "Rebirth". It seems all of the other endings work in Ernest's favor. They are all possible scenarios that would lead James down a path to avoid the ultimate disgrace or insult to "god"...to bring back the dead. Whether Rebirth happens or not is your choice, so pick the ending you like, I suppose. Although I think it's clear to me now that "Rebirth" is the "ultimate" ending, and is the one the game was written around.

Kinda makes me think of Donnie Darko where Frank is basically held prisoner within the paradox by the divine presense, and his means of escape, earning his passage back to reality, is to guide Donnie down a path of despair to avoid a specific incident...or to invoke a specific incident(throw the jet engine out of the paradox, killing yourself in the other timeline).

Ernest frees himself by preventing the furthering of a rebirth ritual? Like his task were to educate Maria, but also convince her to serve the strong purpose to fill the void in James' heard, so that he may lose desire for Mary and not perform the ritual.

EDIT*

Like Pet Sematary, Silent Hill hints that its past involved Azteks performing rituals that would bring the dead back, eventually cursing and souring the ground that the town would be built upon. Perhaps the incident involving a messenger like Ernest is part of a plan of "the Lord" to finally purify the ground that the town sits upon. To further the rituals that soured the ground to begin wtih would only deepen the darkness. Silent Hill must be purified.


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Historical Society Historian
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It's just, like I said before, impossible for Rebirth to be logical for the outside world.
The realistic outcome isn't presented in any theory about rebirth. The ones involving Frank and policework.

Rebirth is only true, if James and Mary get cought in their own realm. He revives her, but they are stuck in unreality. Thats why they disappeared, as Frank said.
They are still there, in Silent Hill... just in another realm, another layer. Their layer.

Tragic and romantic in it's own kind. "They are together forever"

I'm still opened to other endings being the true, but if rebirth is the "true" ending, it is only logical if James and Mary is stuck in unreality. If they would be able to come back to reality, then Frank would have met them, James would have called, or if not, Frank would have brought in the athourities (which he most likley did) to investigate where they went. Police would have looked into bankaccounts and looked for deposit info, which would show where they were the last time... etc. etc.

This logical outcome of them coming to reality is overlooked by many, when presenting the theory about rebirth.

Conclusion...
Rebirth could most likley be the "true" ending. But it could only be it, if Mary and James got stuck in the unreality together. (They may even be with the Gods now, tam tam tam).

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: A thought on Ernest and Rebirth's purpose
     
         
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FrozenHalo wrote:
Ernest never wanted to see "Rebirth".

Ernest frees himself by preventing the furthering of a rebirth ritual? Like his task were to educate Maria, but also convince her to serve the strong purpose to fill the void in James' heard, so that he may lose desire for Mary and not perform the ritual.


Why Ernest didn't want James to rebirth his wife? Contrary to what you believe, Ernest did knew about the ritual to bring back the dead, thus why he became obsessed in performing it himself to bring back his daughter Amy Baldwin back to life. That's the main reason why he uses Maria to get him the "White Chrism", since he was already dead and couldn’t get it himself. Ernest quotes from the game: "Maria...? So you must be... That’s why. That’s why you could see me. So perhaps that means that I can hope for a miracle as well?, that’s all Ernest wanted, a miracle to bring back his daughter Amy. Ernest is not some unseen bad guy "Oh James I don't want you to bring your wife back, cause I’m an evil spirit, boo!". I’m sorry, but I don’t see why Ernest would want to get in James business, when he had his own personal problems to deal with, like finishing the ritual he never got to complete to bring back his own daughter.

EDIT:

Now that I remember correctly, some people had theory's claiming about another incident in the game at Bar Neely's writings on the wall. I believe people thoughts were that Ernest was the one who wrote the following message on the wall:

"If you really want to SEE Mary,
you should just DIE."

"But you might be heading to
a different place than MARY, James."

(Note the words that stand out are "SEE, MARY, DIE".)

Anyways, I believe it wasn't Ernest who wrote that message either, simply on the fact that Ernest couldn’t leave his mansion. He was a restless spirit trapped in his own mansion, that why the mansion was known as "Baldwin's Haunted Mansion" and no one went near that place. If Ernest could leave his mansion to write those messages on the walls, then why couldn’t he just get the White Chrism by himself then? Simple he couldn’t. As we saw that article in SH3:

"The souls of those who died
suddenly by suicide or accident
don't realize they're dead.
Sometimes they stay put and
haunt that particular place
."

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 Post subject:

You misinterpret my post.

Ernest knows the ills of attempting such a horrible thing.
Now that he is a spirit or part of the town, he understands it in a more broad spectrum. He knows how wrong it truly is, and that James performing this can only lead to more darkness manifesting the town...


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Subway Guard
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Quote:
Conclusion...
Rebirth could most likley be the "true" ending. But it could only be it, if Mary and James got stuck in the unreality together. (They may even be with the Gods now, tam tam tam).

This may be true and I like it Glazarus. Great point. I am wondering though
why in the Rebirth ending you do not see Mary in the boat? James seems
to be talking to somebody as he rows towards shore. Quite possibly
he is in the real world, he is just the only one who can see Mary. Maybe
the ressurection was of her spirit rather than flesh. This would be the only
logical explaination to me if James is in the real world.

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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You guys all make some really good points, and I think Glazarus is onto something, in terms of Mary and James being trapped, for it to work.

This is a little bit off topic, but the thing about Ernest is, I don't think he wrote that stuff at Neely's Bar either, because yeah, he couldn't leave his house etc. Jedah, you made some good points there.

But then you wonder why he even knew about Maria, and James.

Well, maybe it's because people in Silent Hill are given clues about other people's lives there. I mean, how did Eddie and Angela know about James? Even if they didn't know exactly what happened, they seemed to see right through him. And then it makes me wonder...How could they have? But then I realize that Silent Hill gave James a glimpse into Angela's and Eddie's worlds. They provided James with the ability to see Eddie's victims, and to even see an even more graphic representation of Angela's "father", not to mention a newspaper article telling her story. So maybe Silent Hill provided Ernest with some clues about James and his story as well...I mean, why would Maria even end up at his house? Maybe it's because the powers that be in Silent Hill wanted her to know something, and provided Ernest with information which he vaguely shared.

Who knows...but this is interesting.

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Historical Society Historian
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Ernest failed to do what James succeeds(?) to do in the Rebith ending; to bring back a deceased loved one (in Ernest's case his daughter). So Ernest lives vicariously through James, assisting his progress towards their ultimate goal: Rebirth.

Who's to know what happened when the ritual was completed? Whether James succeeds in bringing back Mary, and escapes to live an anonymous life on Hahiti. Or if they're beshrewed by the gods to the otherside's nightmareish delusion of happiness, together in a sort of limbo.

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Historical Society Historian
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I do not have anything against Rebirth being a true ending... but a realistic outcome sure isn't Hahiti... The arguments for this is in the games after Sh2 which hints on the time after these events...

In Silent Hill, many things can happen, but in the real world, there are certain things that we can't overlook. James sure couldn't even buy a ticket to Hahiti, because if Frank brought in athorities to investigate, they would have check his bankaccount to see which bank or place he was at last.

If rebirth is right, then they are stuck... we actually know a few things about what happened through Franks statement and things in Sh3.

emptimass wrote:
Quote:
Conclusion...
Rebirth could most likley be the "true" ending. But it could only be it, if Mary and James got stuck in the unreality together. (They may even be with the Gods now, tam tam tam).

This may be true and I like it Glazarus. Great point. I am wondering though
why in the Rebirth ending you do not see Mary in the boat? James seems
to be talking to somebody as he rows towards shore. Quite possibly
he is in the real world, he is just the only one who can see Mary. Maybe
the ressurection was of her spirit rather than flesh. This would be the only
logical explaination to me if James is in the real world.


You do see her body... it's laying on the bottom of the boat... turn of the noise and you will see her more clearly. Even so, i still believe she is in the trunk... or more controversial, I think her body is sitting on the passanger seat of the car. He actually says "there is noone here" or "there is nothing here", something like that, when you look at the passanger seat... but you never really see it and you never really know.

Cloudded by guilt he doesn't see the forest for all the trees.

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Historical Society Historian
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^ People do disappear. It's not impossible, you know. Who's to say Frank even cares enough about his son to initiate a search, anyway?

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RESPECT
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>why in the Rebirth ending you do not see Mary in the boat?
You can see her body covered in a sheet at the front, and her head peeking out.

>he couldn't leave his house
He couldn't leave before Maria appeared; after she freed him--he's lingering because he couldn't revive Amy--he's able to do whatever he wants: and that happens to be to warn James.

>no one went near that place.
The spirits of that Mansion can alter & move things--Amy, for example, knocked over the fireplace cover, leading up to her monument; most of the items sitting on shelves & desks have been moved too (you can see the dust disturbed)--who's to say he can't write something.

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How can Maria be a realistic ending if Rebirth cannot?

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Why can't the endings where James or James and Maria/Mary survive be the true endings? People DO disappear in real life when they want to. I can especially see this happening with the Rebirth ending. I mean he's gone completely nuts so it's no stretch of the imagination to think that afterward he'd retreat from everyone and everywhere he knew. They could be living in some isolated shack out in the woods, or being harboured by the cult itself. There are many possibilities, and I don't think any of the endings are precluded from being seen as the truth. Well, I suppose there are the comic ones...

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Quote:
How can Maria be a realistic ending if Rebirth cannot?

Exactly! Especially since, I believe, the real Maria died
after the hospitol scene in the basement.

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Historical Society Historian
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There isn't any "real" maria at all...

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Historical Society Historian
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Glazarus wrote:
There isn't any "real" maria at all...

That's a misconception. Imamura specifically said that it was up to the player to determine how much of Maria is real and how much is part of James' delusion.


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Historical Society Historian
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Actually, because Maria is born from a wish and only exist in unreality, she can't really be considered real. Ofcource Imamura said that, because it's like revealling a big plotthing to the player to understand themselfs.

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Historical Society Historian
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Glazarus wrote:
Actually, because Maria is born from a wish and only exist in unreality, she can't really be considered real.

In the first parts of the game, the only thing that puts Maria apart from the others is that she is a resident of Silent Hill. Within the game, every single character only exist in unreality including James himself. And, yes, Maria may be "born from a wish." That's why Imamura said it's up to the player to determine how much of her is real and how much of her is that of James' delusion.

For instance, maybe Maria looks like "Lady Maria" from the Heaven's Night poster in SH3. Maybe it's only through James' eyes that she looks like Mary.

Quote:
Ofcource Imamura said that, because it's like revealling a big plotthing to the player to understand themselfs.

He and the staff have no problem answering the other questions. I doubt your reason is why Imamura said that.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Burning Man wrote:
Glazarus wrote:
Actually, because Maria is born from a wish and only exist in unreality, she can't really be considered real.

In the first parts of the game, the only thing that puts Maria apart from the others is that she is a resident of Silent Hill. Within the game, every single character only exist in unreality including James himself. And, yes, Maria may be "born from a wish." That's why Imamura said it's up to the player to determine how much of her is real and how much of her is that of James' delusion.


For instance, maybe Maria looks like "Lady Maria" from the Heaven's Night poster in SH3. Maybe it's only through James' eyes that she looks like Mary.

Quote:
Ofcource Imamura said that, because it's like revealling a big plotthing to the player to understand themselfs.

He and the staff have no problem answering the other questions. I doubt your reason is why Imamura said that.


Yeah, I agree, somewhat, but I personally still haven't decided "how" real Maria is. But these are the facts:

There definately was a resident in Silent Hill named Maria, who had a key to access Heaven's Night.

And James, at the point of meeting his Maria, was very delusional, so it could have been possible for James' mind/or the town to project a hidden desire for what he wanted Mary to be for him onto Maria, who from the poster, had dark hair, not blonde.

And Maria, very early in the game, even before her elevator death, started showing hints of Mary's personality, or at least started recalling some of her memories.


And here are a couple of things I garnered: Maria, although at first it seemed likely to me that if she wasn't just a projection, she was a ghost, from playing the Born from a Wish scenario, I don't really think so. SH's ghosts have shown me that they tend to stay in the same place, haunting the same spot. Baldwin, his daughter, and the subway ghost in SH3 are the only ones we really encounter. Plus, I always got the impression that once Maria's conversation with Baldwin ceased, he was gone, for good, so there is nohing else to show that they wander around freely like Maria seems to do. Plus, she decides almost lackadaisically not to commit suicide...

There's always the theory that Maria is Mary's ghost, and thus wherever James goes, is where she can haunt...But I don't think that's what Maria was either.

And if Maria was just some woman who was sucked into James' alternate/delusional world, much like Walter's victims, or Cybil and Harry with Cheryl/Alessa...She sure seemed to be used to the town the way it was long before James even arrived. But in SH4, Eileen's behavior changes too, and she starts reciting all sorts of shit about the 21 Sacraments that she should have had no idea about...So those two things could be related.

I haven't made up my mind, but it's stuff to think about, at least.

Quote:
He and the staff have no problem answering the other questions. I doubt your reason is why Imamura said that.


Well, this is true, to a certain extent. They also like to leave a LOT of stuff up to the player's own interpretation, and they like to bring up points and hints about some certain things, without ever confirming if they are true, but just saying that they "could" be true, but not necessarily are. Vincent's comments to Heather about "they look like monsters to you?" comes to mind here. :/

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Subway Guard
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Very in depth. Makes things more clear and better projected.
I just always(after playing the game) had a feeling that Maria
was a real person up until she was killed in the basement.
She seemed like a normal person. I don't recall her making
any comments before this that tied her to Mary. After she was killed
she comes back, only this time different. She acts as though she were
Mary herself and recalls thier visit together to SH. Plus she has a scar
on her stomach that I did not recall before, probably inflicted by PH.
She could very well be born from a wish and never really real.
It just seemed kind of odd, the difference in her behavior before and after
the basement scene. Again, it is mostlt up to the player to decide as stated
earlier.

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RESPECT
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>I don't recall her making any comments before this that tied her to Mary.
Play 'Born From A Wish.'

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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