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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Laura meeting James is a meaningful event in itself. And if you believe that James did adopt Laura in the Leave ending, then the importance of her "wander" intensifies.


Fair enough, but that still leaves Laura's original reason for coming without conclusion, and thus by the previously demonstrated rules of the Otherworld, she shouldn't be able to leave.

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You said yourself that her theme is loneliness, Laura being in reality would diminish that aspect.


Yes, but if it's not going to act on her need to resolve her loneliness, I don't see why it'd even bother with her.

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Beside, I do not think that everyone gets out with a resolve.


No, but everyone either dies, is trapped, or comes out significantly changed. I don't think meeting James covers that by any stretch.

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Possibly because Mary decided not to manifest to Laura? True, she used euphemism in a letter to suggest Laura that she would be forever gone, but we can deduct that it was to cushion the child's broken heart. But if the spirit of Mary still lingered and knew of Laura's intense yearning to see her (debatable), she could play hard and tried not to give Laura any further hope, so the girl can finally move on with her life instead of persuing an illusion.


Doubt it. It'd be easier on Laura to manifest to her personally and explain that she's going to Heaven or whatever. At that point, Laura would've already known that Mary is dead.

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There's a fanfiction I saw somewhere that has Laura finally meet up with Mary moments after James's revelation in the hotel room. They have a very touching conversation (interrupted by the sounds of a firefight on the roof), then they say a last farewell, because Mary has to go and see James. Although James isn't featured directly, it sort of implies that "Leave" will take place.


If you can find it, please link me, I'm highly interested.

Quote:
But let assumes Laura did not meet Mary, Laura would be interested in James since he is her most direct connection to Mary. Though Laura outwardly despited James, I think deep inside she has not firmly judged James all negatively. I'm sure during her time with Mary, Mary told Laura something good about James. James could've proposed that Laura could visit the house where Mary used to live--I think the child would definitely be interested enough to "Leave" with James for that reason. Her intention might've been to visit places Mary lived, thus she agreed with James to take a little trip. James might later talked with Laura about adoption (and of course, she could've declined).

I could be too optimistic, but I believe that if James adopted Laura, out of humaneness and Mary's love, the Leave ending becomes very positive. To honor Mary's spirit by giving love to a child in need of love is beautiful.


Agreed wholeheartedly.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
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I have my doubts about that. Laura disliked James even before he admitted to killing Mary, and upon that revelation, she truly detested him. I think that unless she encountered Mary in some form, she would have avoided James at all costs afterward, and we've already seen that if she wants to get away from him, she probably will.

QUOTE: I could be too optimistic, but I believe that if James adopted Laura, out of humaneness and Mary's love, the Leave ending becomes very positive. To honor Mary's spirit by giving love to a child in need of love is beautiful.

I agree with you completely on that, Amph. As stated in the following:

http://www.silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14517


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Brookhaven Receptionist
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Missing since: 16 Jul 2008
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I think the verdict is, Laura never saw Mary at the end, the game gives no indication or even hint at that possibility. Mary had no reason to appear before Laura, James was the only one who needed the truth.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
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QUOTE: I think the verdict is, Laura never saw Mary at the end, the game gives no indication or even hint at that possibility.

It gives no indication either way. In three of the four endings, Laura is never seen after her encounter with James in Rm. 312. In the fourth, you see her leaving Silent Hill, at a distance, at the same time James does.


QUOTE: Mary had no reason to appear before Laura, James was the only one who needed the truth.

The fact that Laura was there at all suggests that she needed the truth as well. If Mary had wanted Laura to be willing to trust James, leave with him and possibly be adopted by him, she would have a very valid reason to do so.


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Yeah she found the truth, by James telling her.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
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PREV. POST: So your scenario is: Laura is hiding somewhere after her conversation with James, believing that he has murdered the one person on the planet who cares about her. James searches the area, roots her out, chases her down, tackles her, wrestles her into submission, forces her to sit still while he tells her his version of events (which Mary isn't around to confirm), and after all that, she's not only going to leave with him, she's going to be willing to live with him. Is that it, or am I missing something?

____________________________________________________________

Somethine else occured to me. Presumably, the events in SH are controlled, in some way, by Alessa Gillespie. That is to say, another little girl who's had a lonely and miserable life, and just wants someone who will love and care for her (as opposed to burning her alive). Perhaps she sees some of herself in Laura, and allows her into SH so that she can have the opportunity to see Mary for one last time, and then go on with her life. It's just a thought...


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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Alessa has nothing to do w/ the events in Silent Hill 2, nor the characters.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
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Wasn't she the one who created the Otherworld, out of the torments that were inflicted on her by the cult? I never played SH1 (couldn't find it), so I'm a little hazy on the subject. But I understood that that's why it looks similar for different protagonists.


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RESPECT
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The Otherworld in Silent Hill 2 doesn't look anything like Alessa's from Silent Hill.

As we know from Silent Hill: Origins, the Otherworld existed before Alessa's involvement. After all: Helen Grady witnessed the "people in the mirrors" before Alessa was born, and the mirrors are a tangible transom into the Otherworld.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
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So be it. Never claimed to know everything.


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Historical Society Historian
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I'm still not believing Helen was anything more than a crazy person.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Missing since: 22 Apr 2006
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The notion that Mary should or would have appeared to Laura is purely wishful thinking. The letter was her final word to Laura. For her to finally see Mary but not be able to stay with her or to learn she's dead or worse, was killed would break her heart even more. It could even possibly make her have ill-feelings toward her because Mary would be leaving her yet again.

In the "Leave" ending I thought the idea was that they left together and James could repent for what he did by raising Laura and giving her a home. I don't want to speculate what happens to her in the "In Water" or "Maria" endings. If they both adopt Laura in the "Rebirth" ending I think that has its own consequences and complications.

Regardless of the ending, Laura obviously lives on and hopefully comes out better than she went in. Just because she didn't find Mary doesn't mean the trip was wasted. Because maybe she'll realize Mary really is gone and then she'll move on with her life. Whether it be with James or another family.

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Last edited by jthomp1286 on 26 Sep 2008, edited 1 time in total.

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RESPECT
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>I'm still not believing Helen was anything more than a crazy person.
If not there wouldn't have been blatant mention of her seeing the people in the mirrors. That's the equivalent of saying the car at the Observation Deck isn't James' because he doesn't explicitly state that it's his.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
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There are two possibilities about Helen. One is that she was simply dotty as a doughnut, and that Travis's ability to travel through the mirrors came from hearing her fantasies as a child, and subconsciously bringing them to life years after the fact. The other is that she was not as crazy as everyone thought she was, that she was really having converstions with denizens of one of the town's other levels of reality, and that the ability ran in the family. I don't pretend to know.

JThomp, there is no way to prove that Mary did appear to Laura, it's true. There is also no way to disprove it. That is because SH2 is not Laura's story, it's James's. However, it's plausible either way: Laura was in the misty town, and she wasn't there to be tortured by monsters or run through the wringer of the so-called Abyss. If James could find Mary and make peace with her departure, so could Laura. And then, it would be far more logical for her to be willing to leave town with James, and possibly accept him as a parent.


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Missing since: 22 Apr 2006
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Last seen at: Traversing the Portals of Reality
Oddish wrote:
JThomp, there is no way to prove that Mary did appear to Laura, it's true. There is also no way to disprove it. That is because SH2 is not Laura's story, it's James's. However, it's plausible either way: Laura was in the misty town, and she wasn't there to be tortured by monsters or run through the wringer of the so-called Abyss. If James could find Mary and make peace with her departure, so could Laura. And then, it would be far more logical for her to be willing to leave town with James, and possibly accept him as a parent.


Point taken, however just because there is a lack of evidence does not mean it happened. Nor does it mean it didn't. You said it yourself, SH2 is not Laura's story. Not to diminish her part in the story, but she is merely a supporting character. The story is about James and Mary first and foremost. Even if she didn't meet with Laura and even if she didn't particularly care for James, James is the closest person to Mary that Laura has. I'm not suggesting she would just latch on to him because of that, but who knows what kind of conversation James and Laura had after James met with Mary for the last time. He could have explained to her that Mary is dead and wants Laura to go with James and James would take care of her. Ultimately, I believe its too much to believe Mary would have appeared to both of them. After playing through the game several times, I was never given the notion that happened. I always believed she was constantly searching for Mary, like James, however she never found Mary.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
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QUOTE: He could have explained to her that Mary is dead and wants Laura to go with James and James would take care of her.

There's actually nothing in any of the letters suggesting that, or the conversation that we know about.

1. Mary's last letter to Laura tells her "Don't be too hard on the sisters", implying that she expects her to return to the orphanage she presumably lives at.
2. Mary's last letter to James does not mention Laura at all.
3. In her last conversation with James, Mary only says: "Go on with your life".

Either Mary never wanted James to look after Laura, or she wanted it to be something that they decided on their own, something that James chose to do out of love for Laura, not obligation to Mary.

QUOTE: I always believed she was constantly searching for Mary, like James, however she never found Mary.

And you are welcome to believe that. I believe that she did find Mary, that Mary explained what happened and why James did what he did. But then, I also support the "Leave" ending. I am a sucker for happy endings, and believe that the dark night of the soul only makes sense if it ends with the dawn. In my opinion, my theory fits the evidence at hand: if Laura still believed that James heartlessly murdered Mary at the end, the only way she would leave town with James would be if he stuffed her in a sack.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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If not there wouldn't have been blatant mention of her seeing the people in the mirrors. That's the equivalent of saying the car at the Observation Deck isn't James' because he doesn't explicitly state that it's his.


Not necessarily; It could've just been an ordinary psychosis and, since it was effecting someone close to Travis, he could've either inherited it genetically (if you think he's a killer) or maybe he never got over the trauma of what his mother tried to do with him. In any case, his knowledge/connection to her perfectly normal craziness could've manifested it in his Otherworld, where Travis seems to bear some self-loathing for the rip over his family and may, to an extent, may have believed his mother wasn't that crazy.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Missing since: 22 Apr 2006
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Oddish wrote:
There's actually nothing in any of the letters suggesting that, or the conversation that we know about.


True, but I never said there was. I am merely theorizing that James might feel the need to take Laura in as a way to repent for his crime.

Oddish wrote:
Either Mary never wanted James to look after Laura, or she wanted it to be something that they decided on their own, something that James chose to do out of love for Laura, not obligation to Mary.


Exactly. Reading back over my post, I do see where I could have suggested that Mary explicitly told James that, for this I apologize. It was not my intent.

Oddish wrote:
And you are welcome to believe that. I believe that she did find Mary, that Mary explained what happened and why James did what he did. But then, I also support the "Leave" ending. I am a sucker for happy endings, and believe that the dark night of the soul only makes sense if it ends with the dawn. In my opinion, my theory fits the evidence at hand: if Laura still believed that James heartlessly murdered Mary at the end, the only way she would leave town with James would be if he stuffed her in a sack.


I too support the "Leave" ending. You might see it as unjust, but I cannot believe that Mary made herself appear to Laura one last time. Its a happy ending, but that makes it seem almost too happy for that to have occurred. So in that respect, we agree to disagree.

Moving on to your last point about Laura leaving with James. If you believe that James felt a need to take in Laura as a way to repent then I believe somehow he convinced her to go with him. Just because she saw Mary, that wouldn't automatically make her more inclined to leave with James. Also, you say that Mary mentions "the sisters" in the letter, but she also mentions James. I can't recall the quote exactly, but she says something to the effect of that deep down he's a good person. So by your logic, she could also have implied that she wanted Laura to go with James.

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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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>It could've just been an ordinary psychosis
a) An ordinary psychosis? Are there such things. . . ? and b) Connections are meant to be made w/in the Silent Hill series.

>his knowledge/connection to her perfectly normal craziness could've manifested it in his Otherworld
Travis isn't aware that Helen can see the people in the mirrors until the internal flashback at Cedar Grove Sanitarium, so there's nothing to be manifested from.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
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Missing since: 12 Jan 2008
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QUOTE: Travis isn't aware that Helen can see the people in the mirrors until the internal flashback at Cedar Grove Sanitarium, so there's nothing to be manifested from.

He isn't CONSCIOUSLY aware. He might be subconsciously aware. Who knows what his mother might have said in his presence? She might have told him her delusions, either before she attacked him or when he slipped in to see her. He then blotted it out until the events of SH0.


QUOTE: If you believe that James felt a need to take in Laura as a way to repent then I believe somehow he convinced her to go with him.

I'm not saying that either way. I'm mostly saying that Mary would not have wanted him to adopt Laura as penance. She forgave him; he owed her nothing. If he adopted Laura, she wanted him to do so of his own free will, and for the right reasons.

QUOTE: Just because she saw Mary, that wouldn't automatically make her more inclined to leave with James.

After finding out that James killed Mary, she fled the room screaming how much she hated him. Unless she saw Mary, and Mary explained to her why James did what she did (read "Final Encounters" for one person's take on how this might have gone down), it stands to reason that she would flee every time she saw him afterward. The fact that she didn't suggests that something happened that made her realize that she could trust him. What, besides seeing Mary, would do that?


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