Did you still like James at the end?

James got a letter. From a dead person. Oh dear.

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What were your impressions of James?

I hated him
15
7%
I felt sorry for him.
211
93%
 
Total votes: 226

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Revolutionlost
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Re: Did you still like James at the end?

Post by Revolutionlost »

I predicted that James had killed Mary as soon as Laura brought up being friends with her in the hospital, so I wasn't too shocked when James finally realized that he was the actual cause of Mary's death. I did feel sorry for him throughout the game though because he was clearly suffering. Some of the symbollism in the game really portrayed how deep his emotions ran; and that's why I believe I felt sorry for him the most.
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Re: Did you still like James at the end?

Post by NeoAquarius12 »

When I first saw it, I was in shock, but there was no way I could hate him... I mean, it's hard to see if he did it out of love or hate, but I tend to believe it was love that finally brought him to do it... mountaing frustrations by seeing the woman he loves being destroyed. I guess it depends on what ending you get actually because I believe the dialogue at that point changes a bit, doesn't it?

Overall, I am more sympathetic than angry.
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Re: Did you still like James at the end?

Post by Lahkesis »

Yeah. I wasn't mad about what he'd done, just surprised. It's not like he did it out of pure spite. James comes off as a sweet guy to me, so it's kinda hard to be pissed at him.
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Re: Did you still like James at the end?

Post by DeSilva »

At the end, I really liked James. Don't know why. I did feel sorry for him on some level, but really enthralled by him at the same time.
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Re: Did you still like James at the end?

Post by NeoAquarius12 »

Yeah, it's pretty harsh seeing that ending. I have never gotten it before, but it makes the letter reading ten times more emotional. I youtubed all the endings I never got. haha.

Even in that ending, you feel like James is still a good guy. All the endings do... especially the Rebirth ending. Think it worked? haha
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Re: Did you still like James at the end?

Post by PIE!!! »

Oh yes I did. We stuck our hands in holes and toilets and stuff. How could you NOT like James after going through all of that? That lovable weirdo.
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Re: Did you still like James at the end?

Post by k0n0k0 »

I was kinda mad at him to be honest. I mean, it wasn't something I would expect at all. But in the end, I felt sorry for him. Sometimes the human mind can make us do things we think not be capable of.
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Re: Did you still like James at the end?

Post by CerealKiller »

I completely understand what he did. He kind of did Mary a favor
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kish
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Re: Did you still like James at the end?

Post by kish »

I always liked James.
I understand what he did, and accept his reasons for it.
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Re: Did you still like James at the end?

Post by Soulless-Shadow »

CerealKiller wrote:He kind of did Mary a favor
Uh, not really. She didn't have much time left anyway. He could've just made her comfortable and wait for the inevitable. Mary even mentions in her letter that the doctor was letting her go home because it "may be [her] last chance..." Letting her die quietly at home would've been much kinder.
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Re: Did you still like James at the end?

Post by pugiofidei »

I never thought James did the right thing, but I also thought his guilt was mitigated by the circumstances. People are psychologically fragile things, after all. I felt sorry for him, and he still seemed to be a likable person.
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Re: Did you still like James at the end?

Post by Sepultcher »

My feelings on James where kind of odd towards the end. On one hand, I kind of got where James was coming from. He wanted for Mary's suffering to end and dealt with it in the only way he thought possible. However, that also brought me to believe he was a coward, as stated before in this thread. Rather than facing his problems by suffering together with Mary, he took the quickest escape possible and ended Mary's suffering with brute force.
Basically, I still liked James yet still held a little dislike for him.
It was kinda bittersweet.
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Re: Did you still like James at the end?

Post by flipain »

I hated him.
He killed Mary in cold blood, because it took time, isn't like he shot her or something, and is true that Mary said him she wanted to die, but that is normal, she was suffering, but she really didn't wanted to die, she even says so to James: "No, don't go, I didn't mean what I have said (sort of, you know), I only want you to stay with me, saying me that all will be ok..." etc, she didn't wanted to die, she wanted hope, that's all. In the original version of the murder video, she even screams in panic as James suffocates her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f1C6Cck ... re=related .

I supposse is very evident I hate James, but that don't made my statements less real. And he killed her because he was tired of her illnes. I don't think it was for mercy or love, at all. James is a person who really don't care about no one, like when she leaves Angela knowing she is going to commit suicide. She says: "Are you going to love me?" I understand he didn't said yes in a situation like that, but he could make her comfortable, something like: "I can try to help you, maybe only as friend, but give me a chance" Maybe even saying so Angela would have commited suicide, but he dind't even say so, he did't even say nothing at all.
Sure he isn't a bad person in general, sure he felt guilt, sure he regrets what he did, sure he is human, and a very human character, but he snapped, he lost control, he is a murderer. He could have stopped when Mary was screaming, but he was completely mad. Later he jus could't bear what he had done. He needed the ride through Silent Hill in order to decide what to make with his life.
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Re: Did you still like James at the end?

Post by alone in the town »

I don't think his guilt really stems so much from him killing Mary, so much as it does from him abandoning her to suffer alone. The former can be justified without much effort. The latter really can't be.
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flipain
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Re: Did you still like James at the end?

Post by flipain »

Guilt from letting her alone? How much time left her alone? And he starts feeling guilty just after killing her? It doesn't make much sense to me. I think it make more sense that he felt guilty because he have just killed his frigging loved wife.
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Re: Did you still like James at the end?

Post by Soulless-Shadow »

flipain wrote:I hated him.
He killed Mary in cold blood, because it took time, isn't like he shot her or something, and is true that Mary said him she wanted to die, but that is normal, she was suffering, but she really didn't wanted to die, she even says so to James: "No, don't go, I didn't mean what I have said (sort of, you know), I only want you to stay with me, saying me that all will be ok..." etc, she didn't wanted to die, she wanted hope, that's all. In the original version of the murder video, she even screams in panic as James suffocates her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f1C6Cck ... re=related .

I supposse is very evident I hate James, but that don't made my statements less real. And he killed her because he was tired of her illnes. I don't think it was for mercy or love, at all.
I'm not trying to defend what he did, but you should try to understand why. James didn't kill Mary in cold blood like you said. He was an emotional wreck from Mary's illness, and not to mention her major mood swings and outbreaks/verbal abuse. Hell, he tried to do what little he could to comfort her while she was in hospital. You even hear a conversation about just that near the end of the game. James takes flowers to her, but she returns his thoughtful gesture with such strong words. He tried to understand and to comfort her, but her mood swings drove him away (though it wasn't Mary's fault either). As for what he did to her, that was a spur of the moment thing. If he had kept his wits about himself he would've realized that Mary would've died soon from the illness, and instead probably would've comforted her during her last days. I think it's evident from his actions and what he went through that he was nothing more than a flawed human, just like the rest of us. He loved his wife, while at the same time he hated her and her illness. Love and hate isn't always clear cut. Mercy, love, hate, he probably killed her for all three reasons, if not more. If he deserves anything it would be your pity, not your hate. After all, he is a much more complex character than just a wife murdering nut job.
flipain wrote:James is a person who really don't care about no one, like when she leaves Angela knowing she is going to commit suicide. She says: "Are you going to love me?" I understand he didn't said yes in a situation like that, but he could make her comfortable, something like: "I can try to help you, maybe only as friend, but give me a chance" Maybe even saying so Angela would have commited suicide, but he dind't even say so, he did't even say nothing at all.
So, what was he supposed to do to Angela? Drag her into his version of the otherworld, tell her to sit tight while he defeats a demon that looks like his wife, then take her to a psychologist if they get back to the real world? What's stopping her from killing herself while his back is turned? In the end, it was up to Angela to save herself, considering that she's the only person who could. No-one else, not even James, could. Under different circumstances he probably would've made an effort to help her, but considering they were in the otherworld, he probably figured that she had her own problems to sort out, and that it was up to her to save herself.
flipain wrote:Sure he isn't a bad person in general, sure he felt guilt, sure he regrets what he did, sure he is human, and a very human character, but he snapped, he lost control, he is a murderer. He could have stopped when Mary was screaming, but he was completely mad. Later he jus could't bear what he had done. He needed the ride through Silent Hill in order to decide what to make with his life.
So....you didn't like James because he's an all-too-human character? Sure, what he did was wrong and extreme, but he just couldn't cope. I would imagine that it's very hard having to sit idly by and simply watch as a loved one wastes away for years due to disease.
flipain wrote:Guilt from letting her alone? How much time left her alone? And he starts feeling guilty just after killing her? It doesn't make much sense to me. I think it make more sense that he felt guilty because he have just killed his frigging loved wife.
I think it's very plausible that he felt guilt over essentially abandoning her to the doctors over those 3 years. One can feel guilt at the same time for different things. I never really thought about him feeling guilt over that before... Thanks, AITT. :)
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Re: Did you still like James at the end?

Post by flipain »

He had a lethal and transitory psicothic break, but he could have stoped before killing her, he was suffocating a persong who was shouting for her life, it is different if he had shooted her in the head. That is killing someone in cold blood.

Regarding Angela, he at least could have tried any of those options, but he did nothing instead.

No, i don't hate James because is a too human character, I hate him because is a murderer. A person can do other thing than killing Mary in his situation, and still be human.

He can feel guilt for letting her alone, what I doubt, because he stayed away from her three years, but what make him starting all the letter from a dead person/Otherworld nonsense is he killing Mary, do you really think the frigging Pyramid head was spawned because he felt guilt because he had left Mary with her illness, or because he had killed her loved wife in transitory madness?
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Re: Did you still like James at the end?

Post by Soulless-Shadow »

flipain wrote:He had a lethal and transitory psicothic break, but he could have stoped before killing her, he was suffocating a persong who was shouting for her life, it is different if he had shooted her in the head. That is killing someone in cold blood.
How could he have stopped himself? You said yourself he had a "lethal and transitory psychotic break". I don't really know much about psychotic breaks, but I'm assuming from the little Google search I just did that they're so bad the individual suffering from one isn't in complete control over their own actions, or even able to realize what they're doing might be wrong. So, how can a "psychotic break", which is completely involuntary, be the same as "cold blooded murder"? For it to have been cold blooded murder he would have had to have got up in the morning and said to himself "I'm going to murder my beloved wife today even though she's going to die soon anyway. Yay me."
flipain wrote:Regarding Angela, he at least could have tried any of those options, but he did nothing instead.
James didn't do nothing at all. When they met for the second time (at the apartment building) he takes the knife away from her. When they meet for the third time in the Labyrinth he saves her from the Abstract Daddy. When they meet for the last time he tries to tell her what her father did, and what her mother apparently said, was wrong. He also didn't want to give her back her knife. That's not "nothing". I'll admit, under normal circumstances (ie; the real world) he could've tried harder, but that was anything but normal circumstances.
flipain wrote:He can feel guilt for letting her alone, what I doubt, because he stayed away from her three years, but what make him starting all the letter from a dead person/Otherworld nonsense is he killing Mary, do you really think the frigging Pyramid head was spawned because he felt guilt because he had left Mary with her illness, or because he had killed her loved wife in transitory madness?
I didn't say Pyramid Head only existed because he felt guilt over abandoning Mary, just that James could also feel guilt over it. Like I said before, one can feel guilt for different things at the same time. This game is a lot more deep and complex than you appear to think (of course I'm only going by your posts). There's a lot of great info in the Silent Hill 2 Quicklinks thread.
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Re: Did you still like James at the end?

Post by flipain »

You are right, a psycothic break would cause him to don't be able to stop, but I have expressed myself wrong, I said that as a manner of speak. James seems to know what he is doing when he does it, it's not like he go running and kills her, he goes slowly, and even try to distract her before starting to kill her.
In the game it appears that James did what he did on purpouse, not under a real psycothic break.
If James would have killed her under a real psycothic break, he wouldn't had done it in purpose, and that would change the things ENTIRELY, all the game, the guilt, PH, all would change, but I think all of us agree that he killed Mary in purppose.
In fact, James have a psycothic break after killing Mary. Look, I have a degree in Psycology, a psychotic break can happen to everyone, under certain stressful circunstances, even if that person have never had any mental problems. And whe it happens, basically the person loses perception over reality, starts to have hallucinations, and makes delusions, and can't tell apart what is real, and what he have created unconscious/hallucinated.
Like I said, James had to kill Mary on purpouse and willingly, because if it is not the case, PH should have never existed. James not remember what he did, but thorough the game he makes some statements that lead us to think, that deep inside of him, he know what he have done all the time. If he would have killed Mary under a psycothic break, he wouldn't had known he had killed her. At all. Then when he watch the tape, he should have flipped out, seeing himself killing her. But that not happens, he just remember it, and kept silent. He obviusly know what he have done. He doesn't try to speak to Mary about he losing control, or not remembering what he did. Because he did it on purpouse, and remembers it perfectly.

However, I think Jame's has indeed a psycothic break, and it is when he make his delusion about the letter. He is going to commit suicide, but he just can't, he is afraid of death. He goes to the bathroom a second, to refresh his mind, and then, while he is staring at himself, he snaps. The psycothic break ir born due to the stress previously generated. He can't bear the reality, and his mind create a delusion for him, a nonexistent letter. He have a blank piece of paper, but he SEES a letter. His mind says so to him. And then it starts all.

You are right, I have said before that James isn't a bad person in general, but when Angela says to him that if he is willing to love her, he would have said: "I can try to help you, maybe only as a friend, but I want to help you, give me a chance..." maybe even saying so Angela would have killed herself, but he would have tried. He says nothing instead.

I haven't said he can't feel guilt for not have been with Mary in her illness, I have said I doubt it, because He stayed three years away. And I have said this because "Alone in the town" said that james's guilt came more from having left her alone with her illnes, than from killed her, I say not to that. Obviusly, the mayority of the guilt, if not all, comes from killing her.

I assure you I do see and understand the internal symbology of the Silent Hill world. I wouldn't have come here in the first place if it wasn´t the case.

Look, I don't hate James so badly, it's just I can't understand, nor forgive him for killing Mary against her will.
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Re: Did you still like James at the end?

Post by AuraTwilight »

You are right, I have said before that James isn't a bad person in general, but when Angela says to him that if he is willing to love her, he would have said: "I can try to help you, maybe only as a friend, but I want to help you, give me a chance..." maybe even saying so Angela would have killed herself, but he would have tried. He says nothing instead.
That doesn't make him a bad person. Angela is a psychotic, suicidal, and dangerous individual who has threatened James more than once and makes it very clear she does NOT want his company. The only person who can save her is herself.
He have a blank piece of paper, but he SEES a letter. His mind says so to him. And then it starts all.
The paper eventually disappears too. :P
Look, I don't hate James so badly, it's just I can't understand, nor forgive him for killing Mary against her will.
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